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Perst-3 lasers. (Page 36 of 36)
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Link Posted: 5/20/2020 5:03:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2020 5:04:14 PM EDT by Kits4]
I have two peq-15c that are not slaved well. There is about a 12-18” difference between ir and vis lasers at 100 yards.

Be sure to check both

I wonder how the perst are for slaving alignment.
Link Posted: 5/20/2020 6:04:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2020 6:07:23 PM EDT by ARShooter91]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Kits4:
I have two peq-15c that are not slaved well. There is about a 12-18” difference between ir and vis lasers at 1­00 yards.

Be sure to check both

I wonder how the perst are for slavi­ng alignment.
View Quote


My Perst 3 alignment is very close, I can't tell a difference. I have only used the vis to get an approximate zero and get it dialed in with the ir though.

I did a rough zero at 70yards because that's where my target was. Checked at 200yards after dark and only needed 1 horizontal click to be dead on at 200.
Link Posted: 5/20/2020 6:06:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/20/2020 6:07:57 PM EDT by ARShooter91]
What rails have you tried?

This is the reason I built a dedicated night rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of those LMT mono uppers as well.

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:


I've tried a couple of dif­ferent rails but had the same issues. I might try something like a Geissele next.

Mine only shifts to the left. I've twisted the snot out of the rail by han­d, etc. without changing it's position. The laser's mount is good to go.

It's something people should definite­ly check regardless.   
View Quote

Link Posted: 5/20/2020 6:49:01 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter­91:
What rails have you tried?

­This is the reason I built a dedicated night ­rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of ­those LMT mono uppers as well.


View Quote


Rail 1: NFA (New Frontier Armory) free float 10" mlok
Rail 2: Troy/VTAC Battle Rail 15"

I have a "few" AR's but they all have NFA rails and one KAC RAS II.
Link Posted: 5/20/2020 7:42:04 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:


Rail 1: NFA (New Frontier Armory) free float 10" mlo­k
Rail 2: Troy/VTAC Battle Rail 15" 

I have a "few" A­R's but they all have NFA rails and one KAC R­AS II.
View Quote


Yeah any rail that holds itself on by squeezing the barrel nut is going to be prone to POI shifts.

If I stand my KMR railed rifle on its butt and let it fall on a wood floor it'll move the rail a good bit.
Link Posted: 5/20/2020 8:54:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter­91:


Yeah any rail that holds i­tself on by squeezing the barrel nut is going­ to be prone to POI shifts.

If I stand my KMR railed rifle on its­ butt and let it fall on a wood floor it'll m­ove the rail a good bit.
View Quote


10-4 and thanks. I’ll get a new rail.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:22:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 1:26:07 AM EDT by LVMIKE]
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Originally Posted By will-1:


I've tried a couple of dif­ferent rails but had the same issues. I might try something like a Geissele next.

Mine only shifts to the left. I've twisted the snot out of the rail by han­d, etc. without changing it's position. The laser's mount is good to go.

It's something people should definite­ly check regardless.   
View Quote


I did some testing, one of the rails was a geissele mk16. It flexed a bit more then a BCM MCMR, but I tested it about 10 times and every test it came back to be dead on where it was at the start. I believe the barrel nut is why. Thinner rails, rails with lots of openings (mlok), and rounder geometry are all recipes for increased flex then say an old geissele mk4/8 or a quad rail with a beefy attachment. I actually bet the old non-freefloat stuff with good attachment is probably really rigid because of the barrel.

But I digress, it's really not a big deal if the nut /attachment is solid. If it flexes (not bends) it should return to zero. I bet shifting on the nut is more of an culprit then the lasers fault.

Here's the tech thread I did. Since then I've acquired a 7075 aluminum SLR rail I'd really like to test but itll be another month or two before I can.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Rail-deflection-test-result-3-rails-tested/12-748260/
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 7:08:00 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LVMIKE:


But I digress, it's really­ not a big deal if the nut /attachment is solid. If it flexes (not bends) it should return to­ zero. I bet shifting on the nut is more o­f an culprit then the lasers fault. 
View Quote


This right here. I'm thinking most rails should have a good return to zero if some pressure is applied. It's when the rifle takes a fall or a more abrupt impact that'll shift the rail on the barrel nut.

Link Posted: 5/21/2020 7:37:00 AM EDT
Originally we mounted our lasers to barrels, so even if the rail or barrel flexed, the laser would flex with the barrel to stay true.

I did a quick google to find a pic for you guys: HERE
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 8:55:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 8:58:52 AM EDT by Diz]
This is an issue, as we've all seen in the past.  You have a balance between light weight and robust.  Especially when running a LAM.  I love the light weight, low pro, M-lok rails, but this is perhaps their Achilles heel.

The question then becomes which is the lesser evil, going back to a non-free-float rail design, to stabilize laser, or keeping the free-float for increased accuracy.  

Or, yeah a monolithic upper.

Another thing to check is the length of your M-lok screws and the clearance to the gas block.  Depending on where WL is mounted (and rail/bbl length of course), these may be right next to gas block and with slight flex are touching.  I have had to grind down my screws to give extra clearance here.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 11:43:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 11:59:34 AM EDT by will-1]
When it's a rail issue what does it do from anyone's experience? Does the laser drift everywhere or is it a consistent drift? Mine will hold zero for a while, never changing even after a few mags, after bumps & bangs, and other times will drift when the rifle has been doing nothing but laying on a table. That's why I thought my issue may be related to positive loading or tension on the adjusters because it drifts in the same direction. I always positive load according to the mfg.

ETA: I should add that it has changed before while shooting but it's an intermittent issue, doesn't do it all of the time. Same with it laying on the table. It's random.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:34:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 12:34:41 PM EDT by Fongman]
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Originally Posted By will-1:
When it's a rail issue what does i­t do from anyone's experience? Does the laser­ drift everywhere or is it a consistent drift­? Mine will hold zero for a while, never chan­ging even after a few mags, after bumps & bangs, and other times will drift when the r­ifle has been doing nothing but laying on a t­able. That's why I thought my issue may be related­ to positive loading or tension on the adjust­ers because it drifts in the same direction. I always positive load according to the mfg.

ETA: I should add that it has changed before whil­e shooting but it's an intermittent issue, do­esn't do it all of the time. Same with it laying on the table. It's random.
View Quote



You may already know this and do this, but you MUST positive load your sight zero adjustments with the Steiner LAMs.


https://www.steiner-optics.com/sites/default/files/manuals/DBAL-D2.pdf

3.1.h  "A positive load is required on the adjustment mechanism when boresighting/zeroing the DBAL-D2 for purposes of retaining the set alignment. See paragraph 3.4."


Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:45:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 12:47:45 PM EDT by will-1]
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Originally Posted By Fongman:



You may already know t­his and do this, but you MUST positive load y­our sight zero adjustments with the Steiner L­AMs.


https://www.steiner-optics.com/sites/default/files/manuals/DBAL-D2.pdf

3.1.h  "A positive load is required on the adjust­ment mechanism when boresighting/zeroing the DBAL-D2 for purposes of retaining the set alignmen­t. See paragraph 3.4."


View Quote


Thanks for checking and yessir always have since I got it and mentioned it in the previous post.

ETA: I don't want to derail the PERST thread and will bounce out of here with this subject.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:50:26 PM EDT
I have no doubt there is a combination of things here.  We know that rails will flex and may not return to exact same spot.  We know "drop tests" whether intentional or not has an effect on things.  What will be interesting to see is how the Perst LAMs perform in this regard.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:53:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By will-1:


Thanks for checking and ye­ssir always have since I got it and mentioned­ it in the previous post.

ETA: I don't want to derail the PERST thread and ­will bounce out of here with this subject.
View Quote



Sorry, missed you saying that. I hate trying to figure out intermittent crap like that. Good luck!
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 12:53:51 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By will-1:
When it's a rail issue what does i­t do from anyone's experience? Does the laser­ drift everywhere or is it a consistent drift­? Mine will hold zero for a while, never chan­ging even after a few mags, after bumps & bangs, and other times will drift when the r­ifle has been doing nothing but laying on a t­able. That's why I thought my issue may be related­ to positive loading or tension on the adjust­ers because it drifts in the same direction. I always positive load according to the mfg.

ETA: I should add that it has changed before whil­e shooting but it's an intermittent issue, do­esn't do it all of the time. Same with it laying on the table. It's random.
View Quote


You know even on my KMR my zero held tight enough to hit my 9.5x20" silhouette at 200 yards. What kind of shifts are you seeing? 1-2moa?

I know LAMs aren't necessarily precision optics but I'd expect less than 1moa shift. A few inches at 100yards is unacceptable IMO
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:17:49 PM EDT
I hate crap like this too, lol. It's anywhere from 1-2 MOA to about 5 and always to the left. I'll get an LMT mono or something like that before contacting Steiner.

Anyways, to my original reply, it's always a good idea to check it and a slaved green laser co-witnessed to a red dot makes it easy.
Link Posted: 5/21/2020 1:30:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2020 1:35:23 PM EDT by LVMIKE]
Ya, that actually could be some kind of erector (screw that pushes the laser around inside) issue. Assuming the laser is mounted with your windage dial to the right side of the rifle, it would mean the laser assembly module is sometimes not coming into full contact with the screw that pushes it around inside the unit body. In rifle scopes, this kind of problem is usually the spring/s that force the assembly into contact with the turret gib not doing their job correctly. It's usually the same kinda thing, shot goes to the opposite direction of whichever side the windage or elevation knob is oriented. With the windage knob on the right, itll show as a left point of impact shift

If firing a few rounds and rechecking causes it to come back to zero then I'd bet money this was what's going on.
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 8:16:59 PM EDT
I was just on Zenitco EBay page all -2,3, 4 Persts are no longer listed

Hopefully it’s not permanent. Perhaps due to corona and shut downs , supply shortages ect....?
Link Posted: 5/23/2020 8:35:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gungrass:
I was just on Zenitco EBay page all -2,3, 4 Persts are no longer listed

Hopefully it’s not permanent. Perhaps due to corona and shut downs , supply shortages ect....?
View Quote



Ivantactical  has a few iterations of the perst 4 & 3 in stock. Didn’t look at the 2.
Link Posted: 5/24/2020 9:58:01 AM EDT
Hmmm.  Who knows.  Hope it's just ebay being stupid.  Maybe Zenitco is just re-aligning it's sales.  It seems they are trying to establish retail dealer network and get out of direct-sales.  I hope.
Link Posted: 5/24/2020 11:44:57 PM EDT
Guessing supply issue.  I have an order with Ivan stuck in customs since April 1st.  Checked with him a few times over the last few months and apparently mail from Russia slowed down significantly due to Corona
Link Posted: 5/24/2020 11:50:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/24/2020 11:55:57 PM EDT by JinNTonic]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter91:
What rails have you tried?

This is the reason I built a dedicated night rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of those LMT mono uppers as well.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By ARShooter91:
What rails have you tried?

This is the reason I built a dedicated night rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of those LMT mono uppers as well.

Originally Posted By will-1:


I've tried a couple of dif­ferent rails but had the same issues. I might try something like a Geissele next.

Mine only shifts to the left. I've twisted the snot out of the rail by han­d, etc. without changing it's position. The laser's mount is good to go.

It's something people should definite­ly check regardless.   



The only rails I trust are LMT monolithic and kac URX4. I’ve tried geissele mk8, mk14, and Kac urx3.1.

I’ve tested these rails by mounting the perst3 on them and smacking the side of the rail with a dead blow hammer. Mount is tightened to 40 in-lbs on all the rails. I first zeroed the laser to a scope at 200 yards, after the smacks, I’d look thru the scope to see if there was any shift. To confirm, it was not the mount/ laser shifting, I mounted the laser to my LMT monolithic upper and smacked the laser- no shift. Smacking the rail of the lmt mrp yielded no shift as expected.

Mk8 rail- blows caused laser to shift about 12-18inches (@200 yards). The smacks caused the rail to shift on the barrel nut.

Mk14 rail- Laser would shift if the rail is loaded, but the blows did not caused any noticeable shift. The barrel nut interface is more secure than the mk8- thus no shift, but the rail itself is somewhat flexy when pressure is applied. However, tightening it to 40 in-lbs caused the top picatinny rail under the mount to permanently deform.

Urx 3.1- blows caused laser to shift significantly if the bottom rail was attached. Without bottom rail attached, no shift was noticeable after the blows. The 3.1 being a two piece rail is flexy. When it gets smacked, the top part flexes in relation to the bottom part of the rail. The screws holding the two parts of the rail together keep the top part locked in the flexed state after the smack, leading to a shift. However, once the screws are loosened, the laser goes back to original zero. I don’t have experience with the URX4, but being a one piece rail, I believe that it is stiffer. Since it doesn’t have screws holding the top and bottom together, it will not be locked in the flexed state after an impact, rather it will relax back to original zeroed state.

YMMV, but personally I only trust monolithic uppers and URX4 at this point for lasers aiming devices.

Link Posted: 5/25/2020 6:12:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/25/2020 6:47:02 AM EDT by ARShooter91]
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Originally Posted By JinNTonic:


The only rails I trust are LMT monolithic and kac URX4. I’ve tried geissele mk8, mk14, and Kac urx3.1.

I’ve tested these rails by mounting the perst3 on them and smacking the side of the rail with a dead blow hammer. Mount is tightened to 40 in-lbs on all the rails. I first zeroed the laser to a scope at 200 yards, after the smacks, I’d look thru the scope to see if there was any shift. To confirm, it was not the mount/ laser shifting, I mounted the laser to my LMT monolithic upper and smacked the laser- no shift. Smacking the rail of the lmt mrp yielded no shift as expected.

Mk8 rail- blows caused laser to shift about 12-18inches (@200 yards). The smacks caused the rail to shift on the barrel nut.

Mk14 rail- Laser would shift if the rail is loaded, but the blows did not caused any noticeable shift. The barrel nut interface is more secure than the mk8- thus no shift, but the rail itself is somewhat flexy when pressure is applied. However, tightening it to 40 in-lbs caused the top picatinny rail under the mount to permanently deform.

Urx 3.1- blows caused laser to shift significantly if the bottom rail was attached. Without bottom rail attached, no shift was noticeable after the blows. The 3.1 being a two piece rail is flexy. When it gets smacked, the top part flexes in relation to the bottom part of the rail. The screws holding the two parts of the rail together keep the top part locked in the flexed state after the smack, leading to a shift. However, once the screws are loosened, the laser goes back to original zero. I don’t have experience with the URX4, but being a one piece rail, I believe that it is stiffer. Since it doesn’t have screws holding the top and bottom together, it will not be locked in the flexed state after an impact, rather it will relax back to original zeroed state.

YMMV, but personally I only trust monolithic uppers and URX4 at this point for lasers aiming devices.

View Quote



Good info. How much of a shift were you seeing with the 3.1? I wonder what we'd see if you loctite the bottom rail screws and just barely snug them or even back them out a 1/4 turn after tight. Possibly have it just bounce back.

I figured a monolithic upper would be more popular in NV but don't see many guys using them

Off to find an LMT MRP deal
Link Posted: 5/25/2020 1:45:33 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter91:



Good info. How much of a shift were you seeing with the 3.1? I wonder what we'd see if you loctite the bottom rail screws and just barely snug them or even back them out a 1/4 turn after tight. Possibly have it just bounce back.

I figured a monolithic upper would be more popular in NV but don't see many guys using them

Off to find an LMT MRP deal
View Quote
i've had a dbal mounted on a urx 3.1 rail for years without any noticeable shifting or wandering zero , the urx 3.1 is a pretty solid system

i do have an mrp cqb but i don't keep it setup for night shooting


Link Posted: 5/25/2020 2:30:17 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By 1iviper:
i've had a dbal mounted on a urx 3.1 rail for years without any noticeable shifting or wandering zero , the urx 3.1 is a pretty solid system

i do have an mrp cqb but i don't keep it setup for night shooting


View Quote


Just keep JinNTonic with his dead blow hammer away and I'm good?
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 9:55:24 AM EDT
Well I mean that's a good point; we would all like to have bomb-proof, mil-spec gear, but what's the cost/benefit analysis.  If I was in a high-IED-threat arena, then sure, you might want your rifle to be pretty stout.  But for most guys doing their thing?  Dunno I guess that's up to you.  I suppose that's why most guys have viz lasers and just re-check zero often.  Then run whatever rail you want.  

At the end of the day, unless I'm running some precision rifle capable of sub-1 MOA, maybe doing overwatch for some team, what's the consequences of the laser zero being a little off?  You drop your piece, or whatever, you re-check zero, with viz laser and RDS, and drive on.
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 2:07:49 PM EDT
Looks like my perst 4 never even left Russia.


Time and date     Place     Message

Monday, May 25, 2020 11:21 AM     MOSKVA PCI-21     Processed Through Facility
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:28 PM          Released by custom house
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:27 PM          Handed over to the customs
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:18 PM          Arrived at the customs of Russia
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:18 PM     N/A     Origin Post is Preparing Shipment
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 3:50 PM          Arrived at the local distribution center
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 7:10 AM          Departed from local distribution center
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 2:14 AM          Arrived at the local distribution center
Thursday, Apr 16, 2020 5:46 PM          Sorting complete
Thursday, Apr 16, 2020 5:31 PM          Arrived at the Post office
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 2:46:31 PM EDT
I bought some stuff from Ivan tactical at pretty much the same time you did, mine finally updated as

2020-05-17 22:55

Russian Federation, Sheremet`evo MMPO PCI-7 104007, Export of international mail

but nothing since then, so I have no clue if it actually left Russia and made it here or if it's just sitting in a box awaiting export. International mail has gotten pretty bad as of late.
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 4:16:43 PM EDT
I ordered from Ivan on 4 May and haven't gotten any update since 7 May.  My gut feeling is it's on the way and the data system is way behind it.
Link Posted: 5/26/2020 9:31:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By topgunshooter:
Looks like my perst 4 never even left Russia.


Time and date     Place     Message

Monday, May 25, 2020 11:21 AM     MOSKVA PCI-21     Processed Through Facility
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:28 PM          Released by custom house
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:27 PM          Handed over to the customs
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:18 PM          Arrived at the customs of Russia
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 4:18 PM     N/A     Origin Post is Preparing Shipment
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 3:50 PM          Arrived at the local distribution center
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 7:10 AM          Departed from local distribution center
Friday, Apr 17, 2020 2:14 AM          Arrived at the local distribution center
Thursday, Apr 16, 2020 5:46 PM          Sorting complete
Thursday, Apr 16, 2020 5:31 PM          Arrived at the Post office
View Quote

I'm still waiting on my March 19th order. An express order I made 2 weeks ago was already sent as "export of international mail". So all in all, I have 3 orders over 2+ months waiting and no items delivered. Just have to be patient I guess.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 8:42:59 AM EDT
I ship things on a regular basis to customers and buddies overseas, specifically in Europe.  The ship times have been really bad lately.  And seemingly random, based on the countries involved.  The UK has been bad, along with Switzerland, and now I guess you can add the Russia to the list.  Hopefully as all this drama dies down, we will see shipping return to something approaching normal.
Link Posted: 5/27/2020 9:06:20 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter91:
What rails have you tried?

This is the reason I built a dedicated night rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of those LMT mono uppers as well.


View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ARShooter91:
What rails have you tried?

This is the reason I built a dedicated night rifle with a URX3.1

I was thinking about getting one of those LMT mono uppers as well.

Originally Posted By will-1:


I've tried a couple of dif­ferent rails but had the same issues. I might try something like a Geissele next.

Mine only shifts to the left. I've twisted the snot out of the rail by han­d, etc. without changing it's position. The laser's mount is good to go.

It's something people should definite­ly check regardless.   


My 3 are

2-KAC UR. 3.1 (i would love a 4.0, but people think Mod 2s are made of diamonds and platinum)

1- SLR
Link Posted: 5/28/2020 6:55:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SgtSandman990:

I'm still waiting on my March 19th order. An express order I made 2 weeks ago was already sent as "export of international mail". So all in all, I have 3 orders over 2+ months waiting and no items delivered. Just have to be patient I guess.
View Quote



I’m still waiting on a March 13th order so your not the only one.
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