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I am sure this has been asked before, but I could not find anything on it. I may be moving to a Class III friendly state and would like to SBR one of my ARs and possibly a MP5 clone I may pick up. The problem is the chance that after a few years I may have to move back to Illinois.
 If I do so can I bring back my SBRs if I pin extended hiders on them? The MP5 clone would start out as a pistol so I would remove the stock. Or does the same rule apply to SBRs that applies to MGs? I would hate to have to sell them if I end up having to move. |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 6:21:18 AM EST
They can be returned to normal rifles and you can send a letter to ATF advising them that they are no longer SBRs. They will still be listed on the registry but the record will be updated to indicate they are no longer title II weapons.
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Posted: 6/3/2008 6:46:57 AM EST
What he said.
/threadover |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 8:41:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 8:43:13 AM EST by tony_k]
+2. They do not refund your $200. And be aware that once you notify BATFE that it is no longer a Title 2 firearm, if you ever move to a Free State and want them short again, you will have to file another Form 1 and pay another $200 making tax per gun. So unlike MGs, SBRs can go back and forth between Title 1 and Title 2 status, but each trip into NFAland costs you another $200 ticket. |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 9:13:40 AM EST
If i may jump in here and ask some thing.
If I have an AR lower that is a SBR lower, does it matter if i put a 16"+ upper on it or can I do anything I want? No one gets mad if the bbl is to long on a sbr do they??? have to ask you know the atf and their rules. |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 9:23:37 AM EST
You can put any length barrel on it you want. |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 9:25:16 AM EST
Affirm, you can place a 16"+ barreled upper on your SBR & swap back & forth. |
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Posted: 6/3/2008 11:08:19 AM EST
Agreed. Just remember, though, that the receiver remains a registered NFA item, so even when you have a 16" plus barrel on it, it must be treated like any NFA item (no loaning it to buddies, selling it without an approved Form 4 transfer, transporting it interstate, etc.). 
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USA
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Posted: 6/4/2008 11:55:11 AM EST
Correct. If you want it to revert to Title I status, you have to get ATF to remove it from the registry. Otherwise it's just an SBR with a long barrel attached, and is still subject to the NFA.
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Posted: 6/4/2008 12:25:42 PM EST
To add to that, when and if you go back to Ill., I would look at the state law. Here our law says things that are: x,y,z, definitions are destructive devices by state law and are prohibited unless the are registered in accordance with the NFA.
So if you added a 16" barrel and came here you would not need to have it removed from teh registery not to violate state law since the conditions defining (16" Brl length0 have not been met to then go on and see if it is exempt. Are you following me? So the question then is are NFA registered receivers banned by Ill. states law or are rifles with a barrel length under 16" banned by state law and how do they define that. If you SBR with a longer barrel does not violate state law and there are no references to NFA registered weapons being banned, then there would be no need to remove it from the register to move into Ill, and then to have to re-make it if you ever leave Ill. again. But then again, I don't know Ill. law, you would have to look into it or seek legal counsel who would. But all of this is only hypothetical until you leave Ill, then try to come back and we all assume that no local,state, and federal laws have changed in teh Obamanation. Dan |
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Posted: 6/4/2008 1:45:02 PM EST
Ummm ... but since the receiver is still a registered NFA item, you mut have an approved 5320.20 to transport it interstate (regardless of the barrel length installed on it), and BATFE will not approve a 5320.20 for destination state which does not allow NFA. While you might not be breaking state law, taking a registered NFA item to Illinois without BATFE transport approval is a federal felony. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 6/4/2008 3:54:26 PM EST
Allow me to complicate issues here. According to the ATF themselves, an SBR is not an SBR unless it has a short barrel on it. What say you?
NFA Handbook, Chapter 2.1.6 Of all the different firearms defined as NFA weapons, machineguns are the only type where the receiver of the weapon by itself is an NFA firearm. Gotta love that handbook. 
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Posted: 6/4/2008 5:29:19 PM EST
Every one of these discussions makes my head hurt, and I figure without case precedent you just always preced at your own risk..
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Posted: 6/4/2008 7:17:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/4/2008 7:31:53 PM EST by tony_k]
Respectfully, I would say you are taking that out of context. It is in the middle of a page of text explaining how to identify which part of a receiver is the registered part. (Interestingly, the very same page says that on an FNC, the lower is the registered part, and this week BATFE reversed itself and now the upper is the registered part. So much for the handbook's enduring accuracy.) An assemblage of Title 1 parts in a certain configuration is required to meet SBS/SBS/AOW registration, but the receiver is the serial-numbered item by which the registered assemblage is registered. There is also a Tech Branch letter dated July 2007, floating around on the internet, that says if an SBR is temporarily reconfigured to Title 1 dimensions, it can be transported interstate without a 5320.20. But as we all know, Tech Branch letters are only relevant and legally useful to the person to whom the letter is addressed. And to take this a step further, Illinois is one of the states which frequently challenges the feds on the interstate transportation provisions of FOPA '86. I really would not like to be an individual who lives in Illinois and is caught in possession of a firearm whose receiver is still listed in the NFA Registry as an SBR. Very, very bad juju. My take is, when dealing with federal firearms law, it is always better to err on the side of caution. Making a mistake, or misunderstanding or misinterpreting a regulation, can cost you your right to ever own any firearm for the rest of your life. So I would not transport the receiver of a registered NFA item interstate without an approved 5320.20 in hand. Your Mileage May Vary. |
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Posted: 6/5/2008 10:34:48 AM EST
That's correct. There is no legal description of a SBR other than the one which relies on it's physical configuration. |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 6/5/2008 2:08:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/5/2008 2:12:11 PM EST by MadDogDan]
The examiner and the Section Chief I talked to last year both told me an SBR is an SBR as soon as they afix the tax stamp to your form1 whether it ever has an upper on it or not. I called when I wanted to sell my semi-auto Thompson as a title1 because I had the stamp to make it an SBR for over a year and never got around to changing the barrel (sold it for more than what I paid including the cost of the wasted stamp). So according to the two I talked to at BATFE, upper changes has nothing to do with a lower's SBR status.
MadDog 
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Posted: 6/5/2008 2:11:49 PM EST
I'm not an expert on the legalities but I think you'd have to be nuts to throw a 16" upper on an SBR and take it anywhere that SBRs are prohibited.
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PA, USA
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Posted: 6/5/2008 3:26:45 PM EST
OK, but if that is the case.... Every time you swap between a 11" upper and a 16" upper, you're now subject to a new $200 "making" tax and associated paperwork. Hell, you don't even need to put on a "long" upper; simply removing the upper at all would "negate" your SBR (no barrel equals not an SBR, remember) and require another $200 and a new Form 1 to reinstall it. Still want to play this game? Not to mention that this is a damn stupid thing to play the legal semantics game on, considering that it will be a virtual certainty that the Feds would prevail in court. Nothing good comes from poking the bear. Particularly when the bear is quite fond of chowing down on easy meals, rather than working harder to chase after actual criminals who harm other people. |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 6/6/2008 4:22:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 4:25:49 AM EST by M-Dub]
It's really not worth the hassle. Don't tempt the ATF.
Just buy a non-NFA lower for your non-SBR upper if you want to go out of state, and keep your SBR lower in the safe. A lower is a lower. No need to use your SBR lower if you don't have to...if you want that particular config in another state, you can swap the grip, stock, and (if you feel frisky) FCG to any lower in 15 minutes or so. |
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