Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/11/2004 12:37:40 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 12:38:37 AM EST by nchapa]
I am not very familiar with shotguns, I know the basics, how to use them but dont know the internals.
Now for my comment/question: At work they train us to leave the chamber empty when not in use and just keep rounds in the magazine tube (we use remingtom 870). reason they tell us to do this is to avoid negligent discharges.

Ok I understand policy, but then they feed us a crap load of stories on how the safety does not stop the firing pin from going forward if SG falls or if you hit a pothole when youre driving, and tell us that this happens alot with P.D.'s.

is this true, would this be a slam fire, or is this a myth? reason I ask is because I'm thinking about buying a shotgun, and we have remington but we used to have mossberg, and although I prefer the 870, if this is true I would buy one of those mossberg 590 double action, I've been told that you dont have to wory about "slam fires" on the DA's



Link Posted: 10/11/2004 12:41:30 AM EST
A slam fire is when it fires when the bolt goes forward. You're talking about a faulty safety mechanism that doent hold the hammer back. I know of no shotguns with that particular gremlin, but it may well exist. Take your unloaded shotgun and beat the butstock into the ground, then see if the hammer dropped. Try this with and without the safety on. MAKE SURE ITS UNLOADED (have to say that, its CMA)
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 12:56:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 12:58:34 AM EST by Stryfe]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
A slam fire is when it fires when the bolt goes forward. You're talking about a faulty safety mechanism that doent hold the hammer back. I know of no shotguns with that particular gremlin, but it may well exist. Take your unloaded shotgun and beat the butstock into the ground, then see if the hammer dropped. Try this with and without the safety on. MAKE SURE ITS UNLOADED (have to say that, its CMA)


The hammer doesn't necessarily need to drop. The firearm doesn't necessarily need to have a hammer. Making a weapon drop safe involves more than keeping the hammer from moving.
It's the firing pin you need to worry about.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 2:26:33 AM EST
This is true. Virtually all sporting design long guns use a "safety" that only acts to prevent rearward movement of the trigger by the shooter. They do not mechanically prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin or the striker from contacting the primer, etc. This will not change with the DA trigger of the Mossberg...no difference at all as far as this issue is concerned.

Your trainers know this and are telling you the correct and safest manner in which to store the gun yet have it ready for quick deployment if needed...listen to them. Those stories about discharges are also true, and the guns CAN fire if they take a hard lick in a traffic crash or from being dropped, etc...and that fact has been documented many times in many places.

This is not a slam fire as several others have pointed out.

Buy the 870...a much better gun than any Mossberg...and store it correctly. It only takes a second to chamber a round from the magazine. If you have pissed off a bunch of really bad asses, then take the chance and leave the chamber loaded, but I would never advise you to transport it that way.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:07:19 AM EST
It is true. I've even seen a patrol car with a hole blown in the roof and the lights in pieces.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 8:11:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By BLY:
It is true. I've even seen a patrol car with a hole blown in the roof and the lights in pieces.



I would bet that the actual cause of this was the cop fiddle-fucking around with the trigger. Of course he's gonna say "I hit a bump and it just went off" instead of, I was dicking with the trigger while driving down the street and shot a hole in my roof."
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:34:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 9:35:47 AM EST by jadams951]

Originally Posted By BLY:
It is true. I've even seen a patrol car with a hole blown in the roof and the lights in pieces.



Must be the same faulty stuff as all those police model glocks that go boom on it's own.

Carry what we call cruiser ready. Leave the magazine loaded and safety off. Drop the trigger then it will leave the forearm free to move when you want it to. Just grab it and rack and boom.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 9:54:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 10:07:30 AM EST by faris]
The Remington 870 has been around since 1950, and all possible "bugs" are long since worked out.

UNLESS the gun's trigger unit is defective (or more likely) someone has been inside it altering it for a "better" trigger pull, these are as safe as a shotgun can be.

There are two ways an 870 can fire ACCIDENTALLY, and BOTH require the chamber to be loaded.
1. The hammer must drop. Either by "accidentally" pulling the trigger or by a defective trigger assembly failing and allowing the hammer to drop from a jar or bump.

2. The gun must be dropped squarely on the muzzle from a great height, (like off a building's roof).
The 870 firing pin (like all shotguns) is an inertial type in which the firing pin is shorter then the hole in the bolt, and has a strong spring holding it back.
Since the pin is shorter than the hole, the firing pin cannot touch the primer, and MUST be driven forward with enough force to overcome the spring and still hit the primer with enough force to fire it.

IF the gun's chamber was loaded, and IF it was dropped from a great height, and IF it hit squarely on the muzzle, the gun's firing pin MIGHT be driven forward by inertia and MIGHT fire the shell.
(A LOT of if's, and might's).

In fact, the Remington 870 Police model is VERY safe.
The trigger assembly has an extra strong trigger/sear spring to make it harder to accidentally pull the trigger, OR allow the hammer to bump or jar off and fire it.

The firing pin spring is strong, and a the only way the gun could fire inside a patrol car would be IF, the chamber was loaded, and IF the gun was carried with the barrel down, and IF the car was driven off a cliff. Hitting a "bump in the road" won't do it.

So, if you buy a Remington Police Model 870 shotgun and carry it in what is known as "Cruiser ready" condition (magazine loaded, chamber EMPTY), the gun CANNOT fire.
All that's needed to get the gun ready to fire, is to pump the action, chambering a round.
Hundreds of thousands of police carry Remington shotguns this way with NO trouble ever recorded.

Were there are "accidents" these are always traced to people doing things they were specifically trained NOT to do.
Specifically chambering a round, then inadvertently pulling the trigger.
These are always explained away as "some kind of freak accident".

Bottom line: Buy a Remington 870 Police Model, keep the magazine loaded, and the chamber empty, until you need it.

INFO on new Remington Police models:
Remington applies a sprayed-on coating of mil-spec cosmoline at the factory, both inside and out.
This is to preserve the gun during shipping and possible long-term storage.

After buying a new Police gun, the cosmoline will rub off, and is often mistaken for RUST, since it's a reddish color.
The gun WILL rust if not properly treated since cosmoline is a STORAGE grease ONLY.

Remington recommends disassembling the gun, including the magazine tube, and spraying the entire gun dripping wet, inside and out with a cleaner-lube like Rem-Oil or CLP Breakfree.
Allow to soak for 15-20 minutes to dissolve the cosmoline and allow the new lube to soak into the finish, then wipe off the excess and assemble the gun.

Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:08:49 PM EST
True slide a shotgun 870 in this case along an armouraled set hit door shotgun stopped pin didnt.
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:21:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN:
True slide a shotgun 870 in this case along an armouraled set hit door shotgun stopped pin didnt.


Link Posted: 10/11/2004 5:28:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN:
True. I slide an shotgun 870 in this case along an armouraled (the car cleaner?) seturface. It hit a car door. The shotgun stopped the firing pin didnt.




Do I win?
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 10:17:26 PM EST
"Ok I understand policy, but then they feed us a crap load of stories on how the safety does not stop the firing pin from going forward if SG falls or if you hit a pothole when youre driving, and tell us that this happens alot with P.D.'s. "


Well, I don't know about a pothole, but I've seen an 870 loaded and chambered - dropped about 25 feet from a treestand, and IT didn't go off... Of course, YMMV - and I have to agree that "cruiser ready"(as in jadams951's description) is probably your best bet... I also agree that the "hole through the roof" was almost certainly a result of the trigger being pulled - whether the officer wanted to admit it or not...


- georgestrings
Link Posted: 10/11/2004 11:01:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/11/2004 11:05:24 PM EST by K2QB3]

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN:
True slide a shotgun 870 in this case along an armouraled set hit door shotgun stopped pin didnt.





Stryfe, not quite.

"True, slid a shotgun(870 in this case) along an armor-alled seat, hit door, shotgun stopped pin didn't."

Translation: "I (somebody) forgot to replace the firing pin spring in my shotgun and subsequently had a negligent discharge"
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 8:04:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Originally Posted By BLY:
It is true. I've even seen a patrol car with a hole blown in the roof and the lights in pieces.



I would bet that the actual cause of this was the cop fiddle-fucking around with the trigger. Of course he's gonna say "I hit a bump and it just went off" instead of, I was dicking with the trigger while driving down the street and shot a hole in my roof."



That's probably true. After reading all of what has been posted here in this thread, I'd say an 'accident' is ruled out.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:35:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By K2QB3:

Originally Posted By Backstop:

Originally Posted By ARMALITE-FAN:
True slide a shotgun 870 in this case along an armouraled set hit door shotgun stopped pin didnt.





Stryfe, not quite.

"True, slid a shotgun(870 in this case) along an armor-alled seat, hit door, shotgun stopped pin didn't."

Translation: "I (somebody) forgot to replace the firing pin spring in my shotgun and subsequently had a negligent discharge"



HAHA!

Armalite - back here and decipher!!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:55:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By ikor:
It only takes a second to chamber a round from the magazine.



And that sound alone to an unsuspecting soul is normally enough to do the trick
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:21:13 AM EST
there's definately a psycological respons to the sound of a round being chambered in a shotgun ht
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 12:32:31 PM EST

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
there's definately a psycological respons to the sound of a round being chambered in a shotgun I caught someone sneaking through a window in my house one night(turned out to be my brother sneaking in from a late night with the ladies) we'd had reports of a convict escaping from the local state pen, and I didn't want no trouble, so I had the shotgun loaded and ready to go by my bead, anyways. I see a shadow in the window crawling through, I pump the slide and my brother quite litteraly pissed himself right there



Link Posted: 10/14/2004 2:02:32 PM EST
Just out of habit, I normally carry a weapon in condition 3 if it has a free floating firing pin. ARs, shotguns, certain 1911s, etc.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:11:38 AM EST
The safest way to carry a pump gun is to keep the slide oulled back
Everyone i know who hunts with an 870 of moss 500 walks with the slide pulled half way back.
There is no way it will AD or slam fire. When you need it then just push the slide forward and boom.

Also the only shot gun I know that slam fires is a 1897 winchester, A Browning A5 will AD if loaded and dropped on its barrel though.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 6:58:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By SD307:
Also the only shot gun I know that slam fires is a 1897 winchester, A Browning A5 will AD if loaded and dropped on its barrel though.



The Model 12 & 25 Winchesters & most all Ithaca 37s (of shotguns likely to still be used for "social purposes") don't have disconnectors. I think the Remington 31 lacks one also, as do most pump shotguns made pre WW2.
Link Posted: 10/17/2004 7:12:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By SD307:
Everyone i know who hunts with an 870 of moss 500 walks with the slide pulled half way back.
There is no way it will AD or slam fire. When you need it then just push the slide forward and boom.


Wouldn't that be more dangerous if dropped muzzle first as the firing pin would have more momentum as it was run forward?
That, and it seems a bit extravagent. Chamber closed, safety on, finger off trigger, muzzle pointed in safe direction.
Unload and hand to partner when crossing obstacles.
Top Top