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Posted: 5/19/2008 5:50:22 AM EST
So after having enjoyed a nice tour in the sand I have money to spend so I want to begin work on developing my scout further. Right now its pretty standard. The ultimate objective is to have an all purpose rifle capable of engagement from CQB to 800m while keeping the weight down. Being a relative novice to the m14 im not sure what upgrades would make it happen. Example: is it worth it to get the heavier barrel? Bedding? I tend to like the standard fiberglass stock and have been eyeing Rigid Rail Modification. Optics will eventually include either a 6x Trijicon scope with Doc or 4x with Doc. So please help me brainstorm and send any and all advice my way.
Link Posted: 5/19/2008 6:00:28 AM EST
RRM is great if you can find one. A standard profile 18.0" barrel will do the job with less weight.
SEI and GDI have some real nice over the receiver scope mounts.

Thank you for your service

Link Posted: 5/19/2008 6:12:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2008 6:21:23 AM EST by Lympago]
Everyone wants the ultimate rifle for CQB to 800m but everyone finds there are concessions. Optics for one. Powered optics, the ACOG's too with higher power for longer range are far from optimal for CQB.
Your not going to need to shoot to 800m for shtf in the civi world as at that point unless your purposely sniping someone you should have been long gone from that fight.
A good general purpose M1A/M14 to me is a light weight Scout setup with a stock that doesn't need to be bedded like a usgi fiberglass or a Sage or Troy MCS, with an optic that gives you a reticle that you personally can hit well with in a power that is good for you up close and out to battlefield zero.
That way you can set it at a 200 or 300 yard zero (your choice) and keep it usefully zeroed for anything up close and out to 200 to 300 without needing to mess with adjusting more for longer shots you shouldn't be taking so you'll always be ready to react in that distance quickly.

If you want a ACOG for that and a light setup, than I suggest you look to put a/your Scout in a usgi fiberglass (forget the RRM and just put a VersaPod swivel rail on) with either a handguard optics mount or lightweight receiver optics mount like the Sadlak Paratrooper or titanium mount and run a compact ACOG 1.5 or 2. If you like the Sage or MCS than go for it. As for a heavier barrel contour there's really no reason to. If you accurize the Scout with some choice parts like Tubb's CS springs, a Sadlak op rod spring guide and TIN piston, tune the trigger and unitize the gas cylinder (if your not going Sage) than you'll be pretty well off.
Link Posted: 5/19/2008 6:16:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By Archangel3285:
The ultimate objective is to have an all purpose rifle capable of engagement from CQB to 800m while keeping the weight down.


My favorite general purpose 18.0" M14 is this MK14 SEI Mod 1

Link Posted: 5/19/2008 6:38:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2008 6:41:05 AM EST by Hokie]
I've been digging my 18" M1A with a Burris 2-7X optic with BDC. It's not designed to shoot 1/4 MOA at 800m...just to hit whatever is behind the crosshairs. Simple gun, simple mission objective, and simply fun to shoot. I REALLY like the scout type optics as they're low profile (retains a good cheekweld). The only downside is that the mount is attached to the barrel so accuracy may suffer. That said, it's a mid-range 18" 308 blaster, not a long range precision instrument.

I may yet put a Vltor modstock on it, or swap the recoil pad for a USGI buttplate, but that's about it. If it isn't broke I'm not looking to fix it.

Link Posted: 5/20/2008 5:14:07 AM EST
Excellent intel so far, please keep it coming
Link Posted: 5/20/2008 5:44:17 AM EST
Before the sunset of the ban and the SAGE EBR became available to us civilians I had the
custom shop at Springfield Armory, Inc. transform my Scout into a National Match Scout.
The action was bedded in walnut, the trigger was tuned, a NM spring guide was installed,
a bi pod mount was installed, the gas system was unitized and a neutered USGI flash
suppressor that was reamed to NM specs was installed. We left the rear sight alone.
The results were outstanding !!

Link Posted: 5/22/2008 5:29:00 AM EST
Why H20 How impressive were they?
Link Posted: 5/22/2008 5:31:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Archangel3285:
Why H20 How impressive were they?


SAI's custom shop does excellent work for less than the rest and the rifle would shoot MOA with NATO ball.

That impressed me
Link Posted: 5/23/2008 9:24:20 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
height=8
Originally Posted By Archangel3285:
Why H20 How impressive were they?


SAI's custom shop does excellent work for less than the rest and the rifle would shoot MOA with NATO ball.

That impressed me Hmmmmm, I do believe I have formed a plan.
Link Posted: 5/23/2008 4:02:06 PM EST
This is my Super Scout.............
Link Posted: 5/24/2008 7:25:26 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By Hokie:
I've been digging my 18" M1A with a Burris 2-7X optic with BDC. It's not designed to shoot 1/4 MOA at 800m...just to hit whatever is behind the crosshairs. Simple gun, simple mission objective, and simply fun to shoot. I REALLY like the scout type optics as they're low profile (retains a good cheekweld). The only downside is that the mount is attached to the barrel so accuracy may suffer. That said, it's a mid-range 18" 308 blaster, not a long range precision instrument.

I may yet put a Vltor modstock on it, or swap the recoil pad for a USGI buttplate, but that's about it. If it isn't broke I'm not looking to fix it.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/Hokie1850/DSC03779.jpg


I like the way you have your rifle set up. I just purchased a new Scout today. What kind of accuracy can I expect at say 400 yds with decent ammo? Thanks
Link Posted: 5/24/2008 8:39:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By Hokie:
I've been digging my 18" M1A with a Burris 2-7X optic with BDC. It's not designed to shoot 1/4 MOA at 800m...just to hit whatever is behind the crosshairs. Simple gun, simple mission objective, and simply fun to shoot. I REALLY like the scout type optics as they're low profile (retains a good cheekweld). The only downside is that the mount is attached to the barrel so accuracy may suffer. That said, it's a mid-range 18" 308 blaster, not a long range precision instrument.

I may yet put a Vltor modstock on it, or swap the recoil pad for a USGI buttplate, but that's about it. If it isn't broke I'm not looking to fix it.

img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/Hokie1850/DSC03779.jpg

My dream rifle right there
Link Posted: 5/25/2008 12:12:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Archangel3285:
So after having enjoyed a nice tour in the sand I have money to spend so I want to begin work on developing my scout further. Right now its pretty standard. The ultimate objective is to have an all purpose rifle capable of engagement from CQB to 800m while keeping the weight down. Being a relative novice to the m14 im not sure what upgrades would make it happen. Example: is it worth it to get the heavier barrel? Bedding? I tend to like the standard fiberglass stock and have been eyeing Rigid Rail Modification. Optics will eventually include either a 6x Trijicon scope with Doc or 4x with Doc. So please help me brainstorm and send any and all advice my way.


800 meters is stretching it for a Scout.

Keeping it simple is the best route.

You CAN make a Scout shoot mighty darn nice all the way to 300 ( and then some ) though.

The key is a fully bedded stock and a good quality barrel. A well regulated trigger helps, too.

There are several ways to mount a scope...but I like Hokie's method best.



The Scout in this tired old pic doesn't look like much but it has a very nice ( though quite factory ) chromemoly barrel and a fully bedded stock. When I say fully bedded, I mean it. From the rear of the action, across the entire selector lock and bar area all the way to the front of the action, I fully stage bedded the action. The ferrule is also floated, though it is not AMU'd to the gas cylinder....yet. I also have a really nice, stock trigger that stacks and then breaks at 5.25 lbs every time.

As it sits, it shoots as well as the full size M1A below it....if it weren't for the shorter sight radius....and THAT is the weak point with short guns. Even with a scope, I wouldn't feel all that comfortable going beyond 300 yards with a Scout. Not that it can't be done....but a full size M1A would do a lot better.

You may want to rethink the Scout and go with a full size in a fully re-bedded GI stock with a scope mounting system like Hokie's....which is much better than the standard Scout mount.
Link Posted: 5/25/2008 12:33:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/25/2008 1:45:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/25/2008 1:47:18 AM EST by nevadasun]

Originally Posted By Archangel3285:
So after having enjoyed a nice tour in the sand I have money to spend so I want to begin work on developing my scout further. Right now its pretty standard. The ultimate objective is to have an all purpose rifle capable of engagement from CQB to 800m while keeping the weight down. Being a relative novice to the m14 im not sure what upgrades would make it happen. Example: is it worth it to get the heavier barrel? Bedding? I tend to like the standard fiberglass stock and have been eyeing Rigid Rail Modification. Optics will eventually include either a 6x Trijicon scope with Doc or 4x with Doc. So please help me brainstorm and send any and all advice my way.


Standard Squad Scout with upgrades by Smith Industeries ........... it's nice. May change out the stock late this year. Looking for some helpfull ideas on that guys.





Nevadasun
Link Posted: 5/25/2008 8:12:49 PM EST
I do just fine with mine out to be about 600, although at that distance I'm holding just over the target with my bottom-most hash mark. To take it out those extra 200 yards will require something more than just a 100 yard zero with a BDC reticle.
Link Posted: 5/25/2008 9:14:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/25/2008 9:18:24 PM EST by airbiscuit]
Simple and light, Devcon bedded, NM modded, SEI brake (it works!), Pachmayer pad, ARMS18 (change the ejector and extractor to USGI, flawless ejection) and bedded in rail segment for an ARMS qd bipod mount or my Surefire taclight. Did all the work, stock painting, etc., myself. Smoke hogs and deer with it all day out to 250.

BTW- yep, I can use 20s, but I prefer 10 rd. CMI mags. Better balance, handling.



Link Posted: 5/26/2008 6:59:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2008 7:00:02 AM EST by Lympago]


That's a sweet rig Airbiscuit. Very practical and I like a practical setup before flash anyday.
Link Posted: 5/26/2008 4:09:10 PM EST
I love your rifle airbiscuit................
Link Posted: 5/26/2008 7:15:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/26/2008 7:20:40 PM EST by airbiscuit]
Thanks Lympago, Armi. I went for stripped down, only what I needed, light. I hunt boar, javelina, hogs, out in the brush and open areas. Lots of humping through, around, up, down, up into trees, on and off ATVs, trucks, etc. My M25 sniper clone, while a tack driver, is a big heavy thing. I decided to build something up as light, short, trim, no frills, efficient as I could around an M1A platform. This was the result. It's about M1 carbine sized but with a .308 wallup. Very light and handy, recoil and followup shots are incredibly light and easy. It's great with a taclight or bipod (never both on there, one is in the ruck) and I'm not calling in airstrikes or lasing anything, so that's all the rail I need. Barrel mounted things on any type of forward mount on an M1A is a bit iffy for me.

The scope is my old Combat Elite IR (replaced on my AR with a TA31F) with an illuminated German style post and dot nr.4 reticle which I really like because it's quick and easy. Added bonus is the mount is see through for the channel on the ARMS18 so I can used my irons with this scope attached. Downside is the scope is a heavy little tank, but works. Trying to figure out BDC knob crossovers, but never use the BDC on this thing anyway. This pup is plenty accurate (much more than me) open sight or with this scope. This would probably be my go to rifle if Mars attacks Meanwhile, it's bad mojo on big hogs and doesn't get all hung up in branches and wear you out having to hump it. I do appreciate that you guys like this thing as I built it, so it's special. I can't say enough about SEI front sights, bolt releases, brakes (I hear it's now the "Coast Guard Brake") Devcon and a dremel tool and Brownells Alumahyde II
Link Posted: 5/26/2008 8:03:59 PM EST
What's the total weight on that, airbiscuit, with a loaded 10-rounder?
Link Posted: 5/27/2008 3:24:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By airbiscuit:
Thanks Lympago, Armi. I went for stripped down, only what I needed, light. I hunt boar, javelina, hogs, out in the brush and open areas. Lots of humping through, around, up, down, up into trees, on and off ATVs, trucks, etc. My M25 sniper clone, while a tack driver, is a big heavy thing. I decided to build something up as light, short, trim, no frills, efficient as I could around an M1A platform. This was the result. It's about M1 carbine sized but with a .308 wallup. Very light and handy, recoil and followup shots are incredibly light and easy. It's great with a taclight or bipod (never both on there, one is in the ruck) and I'm not calling in airstrikes or lasing anything, so that's all the rail I need. Barrel mounted things on any type of forward mount on an M1A is a bit iffy for me.

The scope is my old Combat Elite IR (replaced on my AR with a TA31F) with an illuminated German style post and dot nr.4 reticle which I really like because it's quick and easy. Added bonus is the mount is see through for the channel on the ARMS18 so I can used my irons with this scope attached. Downside is the scope is a heavy little tank, but works. Trying to figure out BDC knob crossovers, but never use the BDC on this thing anyway. This pup is plenty accurate (much more than me) open sight or with this scope. This would probably be my go to rifle if Mars attacks Meanwhile, it's bad mojo on big hogs and doesn't get all hung up in branches and wear you out having to hump it. I do appreciate that you guys like this thing as I built it, so it's special. I can't say enough about SEI front sights, bolt releases, brakes (I hear it's now the "Coast Guard Brake") Devcon and a dremel tool and Brownells Alumahyde II


airbiscuit has one of my all time favorite 18.0" M14s
Link Posted: 5/29/2008 6:33:52 PM EST
Thanks H2OMan, very flattering coming from you sir as your site and posts were the inspiration for the project. I need to weigh it, but it's not heavy, about like a regular Scout or SOCOM.
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 2:59:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2008 3:25:18 PM EST by H2O_MAN]
LRB M25 SUPER SCOUT
You will need to register & login for the details ...




Link Posted: 6/1/2008 3:48:24 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 4:02:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By H2O_MAN:
LRB M25 SUPER SCOUT
You will need to register & login for the details ...

www.imagecoast.com/images/SoundFX/dsc020802.jpg




What's pictured is NO WAY a Scout-type rifle.

How they can call it that and be so bass-ackwards is beyond me.


My bad, it's more like a MK14 SEI in a standard stock.
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 4:36:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2008 5:30:21 PM EST by Lympago]

A very nice Scout M14.
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 5:38:35 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lympago:

A very nice Scout M14.


[Princess_Bride]"I do not think this means what you think it means"[/Princess_Bride]
Link Posted: 6/1/2008 8:27:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/1/2008 8:31:18 PM EST by Lympago]

Originally Posted By MMcCall:

Originally Posted By Lympago:

A very nice Scout M14.


[Princess_Bride]"I do not think this means what you think it means"[/Princess_Bride]


Thanks for line from a great movie but as far as the term Scout and what it means I know just fine.
The term is just a term and using it in whatever context does not only dictate to what Jeff Cooper saw it as.
I took out the rant from my previous post but I should have realized it was a waste of time.
Scout is a just common M14 term used today for an 18 to 18.5 inch barrel M14 ever since Springfield starting calling their shorter barreled M1A that from the Bush and that's exactly what's above. A Scout M14. The only ones confused about it to me are guys that seem stuck to it being only an outdated boltaction in their minds due to how one man looked at it. No disrespect to Jeff Cooper. He was a great man, but times change after all.



Link Posted: 6/2/2008 6:51:26 PM EST
To be pedantic, Springfield distinguishes between their Scout and Bush rifles. The one pictures would be a Bush rifle, not a Scout, because it lacks the forward scout scope mount in the top handguard. Springfield still sells the Bush rifle, in the exact same configuration as pictured (minus the scope and paint job).
Link Posted: 6/2/2008 7:14:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/2/2008 7:15:55 PM EST by Lympago]
You certainly could call it a Bush M14, but Scout is still just the more common term regardless of how it's been modified. People just like to call it that.
Springfield doesn't sell the Bush model anymore though with the standard handguard and a neutered flash supressor. It's too bad really, but they don't do chromelined barrels on standards anymore either.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 1:04:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 1:10:54 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 2:55:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 3:22:10 AM EST by H2O_MAN]
Cooper came up with a great concept, but as with any concept, it's a set of guidelines for enthusiast to follow or not.

I once had my MK14 SEI Mod 0 set up as a Super Scout ...





Link Posted: 6/3/2008 3:57:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 4:09:25 AM EST by raf]
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 4:03:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 4:05:19 AM EST by H2O_MAN]
Even the real deal Steyr Scout did not stick to Coopers original concept ...


Link Posted: 6/3/2008 4:07:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 6:07:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 6:24:20 AM EST by Lympago]
Sorry RAF, but it's still just a term regardless of how you feel about it and seem to think it only should be used in the context of how Jeff Cooper saw it. That's ridiculous and the term Scout was here long before Jeff ever was with people using it who worked just as hard in their lives, but I know there's not much reason to argue it with you because your obviously passionate about the way you see it and feel about Mr.Cooper and his outlook as many others argue on about.

The bolt action is still a useful rifle, though not as much these days as it's still a much slower loading rifle than others and regardless of the way one man saw it and others follow in awe that doesn't change that there are excellent semi precision rifle setups today that can fill roles it basically had the hold on extremely well now.

Weight amount to be set in stone is ignorant to other users differences because one man isn't the same as the next and 10 lbs to one can be the same as 5 lbs to another.
Both of my M1A's are more than light enough for me to not be hampered in any task I choose. Ignorance is to think that what's good for me though is also good for another, so I know people need things lighter too. I don't though and have no need for an outdated, slower loading, lower capacity, bolt action to fit my needs for a Scout rifle or any other rifle I need.

For accuracy that Scout M14 above in the usgi fiberglass if tuned properly besides can be capable of more than enough accuracy for precision shots in needed distance and if the distance gets to be out past it's range it's a shot someone probably shouldn't be taking anyway unless they are actually filling that sniper role. What a soldier needs for his job and what a civilian needs for his are two very different things most of the time.

The term Scout rifle doesn't need to stay limited to one concept though regardless of what anybody wants to get uptight about. It's just a term and nobody has domain on what it's used for in the future just like any other term.

Link Posted: 6/3/2008 7:19:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 7:33:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/3/2008 7:47:02 AM EST by Lympago]

Originally Posted By raf:

Originally Posted By Lympago:
Sorry RAF, but it's still just a term regardless of how you feel about it and seem to think it only should be used in the context of how Jeff Cooper saw it. That's ridiculous and the term Scout was here long before Jeff ever was with people using it who worked just as hard in their lives, but I know there's not much reason to argue it with you because your obviously passionate about the way you see it and feel about Mr.Cooper and his outlook as many others argue on about.

The bolt action is still a useful rifle, though not as much these days as it's still a much slower loading rifle than others and regardless of the way one man saw it and others follow in awe that doesn't change that there are excellent semi precision rifle setups today that can fill roles it basically had the hold on extremely well now.

Weight amount to be set in stone is ignorant to other users differences because one man isn't the same as the next and 10 lbs to one can be the same as 5 lbs to another.
Both of my M1A's are more than light enough for me to not be hampered in any task I choose. Ignorance is to think that what's good for me though is also good for another, so I know people need things lighter too. I don't though and have no need for an outdated, slower loading, lower capacity, bolt action to fit my needs for a Scout rifle or any other rifle I need.

For accuracy that Scout M14 above in the usgi fiberglass if tuned properly besides can be capable of more than enough accuracy for precision shots in needed distance and if the distance gets to be out past it's range it's a shot someone probably shouldn't be taking anyway unless they are actually filling that sniper role. What a soldier needs for his job and what a civilian needs for his are two very different things most of the time.

The term Scout rifle doesn't need to stay limited to one concept though regardless of what anybody wants to get uptight about. It's just a term and nobody has domain on what it's used for in the future just like any other term.



You are discussing the merits of the Scout rifle, yet the rifle you erroneously call a Scout has no Scout features. How do you come by all this Scout rifle wisdom and experience? Have you even shot a true Scout rifle?

Meaning no offense, you sound like a decent person who is in the unenviable position of not knowing how much they don't know.

Tell you what, go out and find a true Scout rifle, or a rifle very close to one. Use it for a while, and we'll continue the discussion.

If you like, try this experiment: In a safe area, have a friend toss into the air some clay trap/skeet targets, and practice hitting them with the Scout rifle. Before long, you should be able to hit them regularly.
Now, try it with your conventionally-scoped "Scout". Maybe impossible to do.
This sounds like a stunt, but actually it is an excellent demonstration of the Scout rifle's ability to take a very quick and accurate snap shot. This is seldom practiced, and less often even mentioned, but any hunter or soldier will tell you its' worth.


I'm happy you feel your worthy to judge and to tell people what they don't seem to know, so their wrong and what a true "Scout" rifle is, but the point also is that what a "Scout" rifle is, is flexible regardless of anyone's closed minded outlook on it. No offense, but this is very much another waste of time argument now between people that are obviously not going to agree.

Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 6/3/2008 10:34:05 AM EST
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