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Page Armory » M-16
Posted: 7/20/2011 10:27:44 AM EDT
I just sold my RLL earlier this week and in the near future I would like to get a RR.  More specifically, I would prefer a US Gov marked M16A1.

I've been through the archives and everywhere else trying to find out as much as I can about them.

From what I've been able to gather, Norell and Stemple were the two that did most (or all?) of the rewelds.  I understand that the rewelds are the least desirable M16 due to the weld being a weak point.  Has anyone ever heard of a reweld letting loose and breaking/cracking?  I've also read about some people x-raying their M16.  Is that just to check one that is described as an original M16 that you're suspect is a reweld or is there something more to it?

Any other info you guys could pass on would be appreciated.

I saw a H&R M16A1 on subguns and would be interested in that and 12.5k seems like a good price... or not?
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 10:31:01 AM EDT
[#1]
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 11:52:53 AM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 1:33:31 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just sold my RLL earlier this week and in the near future I would like to get a RR.  More specifically, I would prefer a US Gov marked M16A1.

I've been through the archives and everywhere else trying to find out as much as I can about them.

From what I've been able to gather, Norell and Stemple were the two that did most (or all?) of the rewelds.  I understand that the rewelds are the least desirable M16 due to the weld being a weak point.  Has anyone ever heard of a reweld letting loose and breaking/cracking?  I've also read about some people x-raying their M16.  Is that just to check one that is described as an original M16 that you're suspect is a reweld or is there something more to it?

Any other info you guys could pass on would be appreciated.

I saw a H&R M16A1 on subguns and would be interested in that and 12.5k seems like a good price... or not?

The x-raying is just to determine whether or not a receiver is a reweld, since sellers have tried to pass off rewelds as uncut originals. X-raying is definitely called-for if you are looking for, and paying mucho $$$ for, an uncut original.

Many 07/02s rewelded scrapped receivers, but you are correct, Norrell and Stemple probably did the majority of them. John Norrell's in particular were so good that during an ATF audit one year back then, the field inspector confiscated a bunch of them, claiming that they were uncut originals that John had illegally registered as rewelds. Tech Branch ran them through an x-ray machine and returned them to Norrell.

BTW, back then, receivers were usually just cut once, and you could buy the halves by the 55-gal barrel. That's what Norrell and Stemple did, then they sifted through looking for a long front half and a long rear. When they did, they trimmed them to match and welded them up. But none of the M16 rewelds are from a single machine gun –– all have a front from one and a rear from another, because of this method. You also can find rewelds with an H&R magwell and a Colt rear section.

I wouldn't pay $12.5k for a reweld, when you can get an uncut RR conversion for that much. Rewelds are not as common, but they generally run $1-1.5k less than an RR conversion.

HTH.




Thanks Tony.

That's what I was looking for.  Have you heard of any welded receivers breaking?  I'm not interested in a safe queen.  I'd like something to take out to the range and not cry about if it gets a scratch.  Something that's bastardized by having two different lowers welded together that isn't really a collector piece fits this idea.  Of course I don't want something that truely is weak to a point where I have to worry about it developing a crack...  I recall a thread a while back where a member here couldn't find anyone who was willing to do some welding on his RR, so if anything did happen it would be a pain to fix.

Is there any way, other than doing a FOIA request through the BATFE, to find out who welded the receiver?

So you would consider a fair price for a reweld to be around $9k-$10.5k or so?
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 2:22:47 PM EDT
[#4]
You shouldn't have to do an FOIA to figure out who rewelded it, as they should be listed as the manufacture of the weapon. Norell, stemple, et al would have had to have filed a F2 to manufacture a new MG. Even some joe in his garage would have had to file a F1 to reweld one, and they would always be listed as the manufacture on any forms after they sold it. I know of some cases that people changed the forms, I guess back in the day it happened, as the lowers have the colt, H&R, or who ever made the guns before they were cut up, but that in itself was changing info on a federal form, so wasn't suggested. But then again, some dealers changed MAC's into MAG58's, so I guess changing the manufacture from Norell to Colt wasn't a big deal to some of them, and hence why people have the need to xray their lowers.
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 5:16:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 5:25:45 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 7/20/2011 7:20:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You shouldn't have to do an FOIA to figure out who rewelded it, as they should be listed as the manufacture of the weapon. Norell, stemple, et al would have had to have filed a F2 to manufacture a new MG. Even some joe in his garage would have had to file a F1 to reweld one, and they would always be listed as the manufacture on any forms after they sold it. I know of some cases that people changed the forms, I guess back in the day it happened, as the lowers have the colt, H&R, or who ever made the guns before they were cut up, but that in itself was changing info on a federal form, so wasn't suggested. But then again, some dealers changed MAC's into MAG58's, so I guess changing the manufacture from Norell to Colt wasn't a big deal to some of them, and hence why people have the need to xray their lowers.

With all due respect ... I've personally inspected a coupla dozen rewelds, and their paperwork, and from that sampling, I'd say at least 70% of the rewelds today are accompanied by Form 4's or Form 3's that list the manufacturer rollmarked on the magwell as the maker of record. While I'm sure Norrell and Stemple transferred the rewelds they F2'd with their names, very, very few were last transferred listing the name of the person who welded the pieces together and filed the F1/F2.

This is partially because prior to 1986, ATF did not require that the markings be in plain sight or of any specified depth ... so markings were hidden, or engraved with a vibrapen to create markings that would wash away with a refinish. That was legal back then. More important, in the early days many buyers and owners viewed rewelds as "reactivated" Colts or H&R's, even when they knew someone else had welded them together from scap. Hey, even today, there are folks who think they can Form 1 an SBR and not engrave their own markings ... can you imagine what went on in the days before Al Gore invented the internet? So Joe Blow bought a reweld from Norrell or Stemple in the late '70s/early '80s, and when they went to sell it years later, they just filled out the F4 as "Colt" or "H&R." No biggie at the time.

Absent markings, the only way you will know is by filing an FOIA ... but from my experience, every time I see a U.S. Property-marked M16, I assume it is a reweld until I see an FOIA or other documentation proving otherwise, because the vast majority of U.S. Property-marked M16s are indeed rewelds.


No reason for the all do respect. You have had many more guns run threw your hands then I have.

I was under the understanding that most, if not all, where changed after the fact. I don't think norell or stemple registered them as colt or H&R as the manufacture. Unless you know other wise.

Also, do you know of any that were rewelded and not marked by stemple or norell? I can understand some guy in his garage not marking it, goes along with the lines of people making SBR's and not knowing they have to engrave the weapon. (or not wanted to engrave it even if they know about the engraving requirement)
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 7:26:14 AM EDT
[#8]
My H&R is a Stemple weld job. It looks like it has an H&R front and a GM rear as there are no markings above the trigger area. My lower is marked by a small and faint stamp on the pistol grip boss on the left side. It is still visible after it was reanodized by Victor. My F4 lists H&R as the mfg but the FOIA history shows that it was actually made by Stemple.
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 8:17:21 AM EDT
[#9]
Here's an H&R reweld by Stemple.

Click for larger pic
The F4 shows H&R as the manufacturer. Before I bought I called John him to ask about this specific receiver but he said he had turned in all his paperwork when he got out of the business the first time and couldn't possibly remember any individual job without it.  I asked him if I should have any concerns about receiver stretch on high round count receivers, and he said he hadn't heard of any such problems.  He did recommend that I ask about the round count, though.  This one is stamped "Stemple" under the pistol grip lug as Tony describes above.  I haven't yet done a FOIA.
ETA: Forgot to add I bought this in 2005 & didn't pay anywhere near $12.5K, and the deal included an LMT SBR upper, LMT SOCOM stock, carry handle, Gas Buster, and Knights 2-stage FA trigger. I'd say $12.5K is high, unless there are a number of extras thrown in.  OK, maybe not so high after all.
 
 
 




 
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 9:00:46 AM EDT
[#10]
Prices on them have been going back up. The H&R that sold a couple of weeks ago for $12,500 didn't even last a day at that price. Just FYI.
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 9:07:09 AM EDT
[#11]



Quoted:


Prices on them have been going back up. The H&R that sold a couple of weeks ago for $12,500 didn't even last a day at that price. Just FYI.


Good to know.  After all, it has been 6 years...though I'd expect prices to have stabilized given the crappy economy.



<hurries off to browse Subguns & Sturm>



 
Link Posted: 7/21/2011 11:23:30 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Prices on them have been going back up. The H&R that sold a couple of weeks ago for $12,500 didn't even last a day at that price. Just FYI.

Good to know.  After all, it has been 6 years...though I'd expect prices to have stabilized given the crappy economy.

<hurries off to browse Subguns & Sturm>
 


They were a good bit lower over the last year and a half. June 2010 I bought a RR M16 for $7400 off gunbroker. Now, you'd be lucky to find one for $10,500. I've seen one posted under $10k in the last 5-6 months, and it sold in a matter of hours. This time last year, you could find them listed on gunbroker from $8500-$10k with a number of sellers.
Link Posted: 7/22/2011 8:26:25 AM EDT
[#13]
I paid $9995 for my Stemple H&R in 2006. And it was stripped!
Link Posted: 7/22/2011 2:18:45 PM EDT
[#14]
I was at John Norrell's the other night and he had been showing a guy some retro receiver colors to try to match his moly coat job. The had about 20 cut receivers on a chain for reference. That guy has stuff tucked everywhere!
Link Posted: 7/22/2011 2:34:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Just a little note RE: the FOIA request idea.
A while back I phoned ATF to inquire about one of my guns. An 11.5" bbl. M16A1.
The VERY nice lady on the phone looked at the original form
and told me it was registered as a sub-machine gun, 11.5" barrel,
in 5.56x45mm by Colt.  Sometimes it can't hurt to ask.

Joe O
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 3:40:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Anyone have any pics of good rewelds and crappy ones?
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 4:00:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
the vast majority of U.S. Property-marked M16s are indeed rewelds.


That's interesting to know.

ETA - What would be the legal status if someone gets one of those US PROPERTY marked front mag well sections and welds it to a semi only rear section?

Link Posted: 7/28/2011 5:07:25 AM EDT
[#18]



Quoted:


Anyone have any pics of good rewelds and crappy ones?


The photo above is of a good reweld.  



 
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 7:33:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Anyone have any pics of good rewelds and crappy ones?


The good rewelds you can't even tell were rewelds. Only a xray would be able to let you know it was.
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 9:09:46 AM EDT
[#20]
Im thinking more internally. Any one can buff out the outside.
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 11:25:50 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Im thinking more internally. Any one can buff out the outside.


I don't know that there is an easy answer to that. I'd only buy a reweld that was done by norell or stemple. I might take a chance on another, but only if I could see it in person, it was a couple of thousand less then the going rate, and could shoot it to be sure there were no issues with the frame. Might even have it sent to M60joe to look over before I'd be willing to put money on it.
Link Posted: 7/28/2011 7:39:18 PM EDT
[#22]
I'm just curious as to how they get the anodizing so even on rewelds. I'm assuming the filler rod they use is not identical to the receiver material and it would seem as though the anodizing would react differently to the different alloys. Anyone know they accomplished this?
Link Posted: 7/30/2011 1:49:37 PM EDT
[#23]
how do you go about doing this since you don't own b4 you buy it?  Does the seller agree to it, then it gets shipped there?  Did the seller already have the x-rays done?


Quoted:
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.


Link Posted: 7/30/2011 8:28:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 8/8/2011 1:15:32 AM EDT
[#25]
keep in mind the prices you will see on this forum are usually best friend or friend of a friend pricing.  Wish I had picked a mint Olympic or RR SP1 for $10k when I saw them for sale locally, but the input was that prices were too high.  Nowadays over the last 6 months, I have not seen any RR clone for less than $11,500.

A local dealer sold a Sendra complete for less than $9k a year or so ago.  It was sold before I knew about it, otherwise I would have definitely bought it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2011 9:08:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
I was at John Norrell's the other night and he had been showing a guy some retro receiver colors to try to match his moly coat job. The had about 20 cut receivers on a chain for reference. That guy has stuff tucked everywhere!


That was me! Hes a nice guy..
Link Posted: 8/20/2011 8:20:29 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.


That was officially the most unusual request I have ever had a customer ask..... until he explained why.  Now I Xray every RR M16 that comes through.  The Doc in a box around the corner from me does it for free- they just want a copy for her sonl!  First time I came in, I said I need to get something Xrayed.  

Them:  What is wrong sir?
Me: I need to Xray something about the size of a foot.
Them: What is wrong with your foot sir?
Me: Ummm- I need to get a machine gun Xrayed.
Them: Really????????????  
Me: Everything is legal... I am a dealer.
Them: Ok- come on back... if the Doc asked- you are my nephew.  I can have one for my son, right?
Me: Sure!!!
Link Posted: 8/21/2011 10:28:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.


That was officially the most unusual request I have ever had a customer ask..... until he explained why.  Now I Xray every RR M16 that comes through.  The Doc in a box around the corner from me does it for free- they just want a copy for her sonl!  First time I came in, I said I need to get something Xrayed.  

Them:  What is wrong sir?
Me: I need to Xray something about the size of a foot.
Them: What is wrong with your foot sir?
Me: Ummm- I need to get a machine gun Xrayed.
Them: Really????????????  
Me: Everything is legal... I am a dealer.
Them: Ok- come on back... if the Doc asked- you are my nephew.  I can have one for my son, right?
Me: Sure!!!



would you be able to post a few pics up of re-weld receivers if you have any?  i'd like to see what it looks like
Link Posted: 8/22/2011 5:12:15 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.


That was officially the most unusual request I have ever had a customer ask..... until he explained why.  Now I Xray every RR M16 that comes through.  The Doc in a box around the corner from me does it for free- they just want a copy for her sonl!  First time I came in, I said I need to get something Xrayed.  

Them:  What is wrong sir?
Me: I need to Xray something about the size of a foot.
Them: What is wrong with your foot sir?
Me: Ummm- I need to get a machine gun Xrayed.
Them: Really????????????  
Me: Everything is legal... I am a dealer.
Them: Ok- come on back... if the Doc asked- you are my nephew.  I can have one for my son, right?
Me: Sure!!!


Hey next time I come by the shop you need to show me some of those X-rays
Link Posted: 8/29/2011 8:08:59 PM EDT
[#30]



Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.




That was officially the most unusual request I have ever had a customer ask..... until he explained why.  Now I Xray every RR M16 that comes through.  The Doc in a box around the corner from me does it for free- they just want a copy for her sonl!  First time I came in, I said I need to get something Xrayed.  



Them:  What is wrong sir?

Me: I need to Xray something about the size of a foot.

Them: What is wrong with your foot sir?

Me: Ummm- I need to get a machine gun Xrayed.

Them: Really????????????  

Me: Everything is legal... I am a dealer.

Them: Ok- come on back... if the Doc asked- you are my nephew.  I can have one for my son, right?

Me: Sure!!!




Hey next time I come by the shop you need to show me some of those X-rays


Same here.  



I would have loved to be there during that conversation.........



We have Xray machines at work but I don't think they would be as accommodating if I showed up with a machine gun to be checked out...............



 
Link Posted: 8/30/2011 6:57:14 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I had my us property marked colt m16a1 x rayed just to be safe. I was pretty sure it was not because it fell into the serial number range of us prop marked guns from this forum. My gun came from department of energy.


That was officially the most unusual request I have ever had a customer ask..... until he explained why.  Now I Xray every RR M16 that comes through.  The Doc in a box around the corner from me does it for free- they just want a copy for her sonl!  First time I came in, I said I need to get something Xrayed.  

Them:  What is wrong sir?
Me: I need to Xray something about the size of a foot.
Them: What is wrong with your foot sir?
Me: Ummm- I need to get a machine gun Xrayed.
Them: Really????????????  
Me: Everything is legal... I am a dealer.
Them: Ok- come on back... if the Doc asked- you are my nephew.  I can have one for my son, right?
Me: Sure!!!


Hey next time I come by the shop you need to show me some of those X-rays

Same here.  

I would have loved to be there during that conversation.........

We have Xray machines at work but I don't think they would be as accommodating if I showed up with a machine gun to be checked out...............
 


If you stripped it down to just the lower, its a piece of metal you are looking to have xrayed to see if there is any differences in the metal.
Page Armory » M-16
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