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Posted: 10/30/2015 9:37:22 PM EDT
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Hey, guys. I'm a gun enthusiast. I don't own an M16, nor do I plan to buy one (at $15,000 to $33,000 at least) for the time being. However, I do love my ARs and just learning about guns in general. Please be sure to correct me if this violates any rules. I'm not wanting to discuss conversions or anything illegal.
Now, to the question. My understanding is that converted ARs and M16s have a rate of fire anywhere from 700 to 900 rounds per minute. Wikipedia (not the best source) also says 700 to 950 rounds per minute. I'm assuming that rate of fire and cyclic rate are measured unsuppressed. What would cause such a staggering variation in rate of fire of anywhere between 700 to 950? Assuming all the parts are the same (buffer, auto sear placement, fire control group, etc) and the bolt carrier is tripping the auto sear at the same time, it would seem that the rate of fire would be standardized. The SCAR's rate of fire is 625 rounds per minute (according to Wikipedia), nothing more or less. It doesn't have a range of rate of fire, so to speak. The same can be said about Wiki's report of 650 rounds per minute for AK 74s. Most M16s I've seen on YouTube or in person seem to shoot much faster than the select fire SCARs or AK 74s I've seen on YouTube. Also, is there a practical purpose for a wide range of rate of fires? Thanks, guys. I've been kinda curious. |
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A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature.
Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. |
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Quoted:
What would cause such a staggering variation in rate of fire of anywhere between 700 to 950? Buffer mass, gas port placement, and how hot the ammo is loaded. All 20" standard rifle buffer M16s will have about the same rate of fire as any other, for the same ammo loading. Ditto dead stock, milspec M4 carbines, though they'll tend to be faster ROF than the 20" rifles, owing to shorter gas system and lighter buffer mass. All the other variations are caused by the huge range in ammo choices, buffer choices, gas port placement and sizes, and other changes made by private owners. If there were enough full auto SCARs in private hands, they'd get customized and vary all over the place, too. No practical use for higher ROF, just a consequence of configuration, generally. |
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Quoted:
A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Learn control....It's not that hard. |
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Quoted:
Hey, guys. I'm a gun enthusiast. I don't own an M16, nor do I plan to buy one (at $15,000 to $33,000 at least) for the time being. However, I do love my ARs and just learning about guns in general. Please be sure to correct me if this violates any rules. I'm not wanting to discuss conversions or anything illegal. Now, to the question. My understanding is that converted ARs and M16s have a rate of fire anywhere from 700 to 900 rounds per minute. Wikipedia (not the best source) also says 700 to 950 rounds per minute. I'm assuming that rate of fire and cyclic rate are measured unsuppressed. What would cause such a staggering variation in rate of fire of anywhere between 700 to 950? Assuming all the parts are the same (buffer, auto sear placement, fire control group, etc) and the bolt carrier is tripping the auto sear at the same time, it would seem that the rate of fire would be standardized. The SCAR's rate of fire is 625 rounds per minute (according to Wikipedia), nothing more or less. It doesn't have a range of rate of fire, so to speak. The same can be said about Wiki's report of 650 rounds per minute for AK 74s. Most M16s I've seen on YouTube or in person seem to shoot much faster than the select fire SCARs or AK 74s I've seen on YouTube. Also, is there a practical purpose for a wide range of rate of fires? Thanks, guys. I've been kinda curious. I have shot a m16 that ran 1200 plus RPM. The older that had it said it was a much tweeked upper and buffer to achieve it. It was CRAZY fast. |
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Part of the reason the m16 has a large range for rate of fire is that it is so modular. Things like barrel length, gas system length, weight of bcg, weight of buffer, condition of buffer spring, suppressed, unsuppressed, type of ammo, etc... All effect rate of fire.
Rifles like the scar have basically no part variation so it's much easier to nail down a specific rate of fire. My 10.3" m16 suppressed has cycle rate over 1000 rounds per min but thats with a light weight titanium carrier and carbine buffer, if i open the gas block up all the way it cycles so fast it jams several times a magazine, im guessing 1200-1500 rpm, far beyond what the rifle was designed to do but its hard to say exactly as when ive tested it with shot timers they only pics up like every other shot. As for the comment about full auto being not controllable that's just not true. Sure if you're derping around doing mag dumps from the hip you won't hit shit but anyone whose spent some time shooting full auto will have not troubles getting chest sized groups out to 25 yards, plus the m16 has very minimal recoil compared to some machine guns and when you pair it with a suppressor or muzzle break and tune the gas system properly it feels like youre shooting a 9mm SMG. |
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Quoted: A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. I have both a Colt M-16 and a HK MP-5 and both are very controllable. If your 3rd and subsequent shots from a M-16 are over the target then you need some serious work on your technique. I also have a HK G-3 and now that is the proper example of how your first shot is on target and the rest go over it. |
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Quoted: A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. Even a 308 MG, much less a 223, if shot with proper stance, grip, and technique, is controllable. It's not that hard at 30 yards to put all rounds into a 8x11 paper target. I highly doubt that all SCARs have the exact same rate of fire, unless the SCARs are all new out of the box and use the exact same ammo.
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| This thread has been really informative. I really appreciate everybody who has chimed in. Would it correct to assume that as a recoil spring weakens, the cyclic rate of the host firearm increases? That being said, a brand new Colt or FN M4A1 that comes off of the assembly line is going to have a slower rate of fire than an M4A1 that has been in the field used widely? |
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Quoted:
A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. Your friend sucks at shooting. 3 burst from an MP5? You are not much better. Neither was I when I first started. Every man thinks he is born to shoot, drive and fuck. Does not work that way. Skills take practice. With practice you will be able to keep all rounds on target, shoot MP5 1/2/3 or however man bursts you want etc. |
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Quoted:
This thread has been really informative. I really appreciate everybody who has chimed in. Would it correct to assume that as a recoil spring weakens, the cyclic rate of the host firearm increases? That being said, a brand new Colt or FN M4A1 that comes off of the assembly line is going to have a slower rate of fire than an M4A1 that has been in the field used widely? Would it correct to assume that as a recoil spring weakens, the cyclic rate of the host firearm increases? It is my experience that the stronger the recoil spring the faster the rate of fire all other things being equal. A stronger recoil spring pushes the action closed much faster than a weak recoil spring and during the compression stroke a stronger spring doesn't seem to really slow down the rearward movement all that much. That being said, a brand new Colt or FN M4A1 that comes off of the assembly line is going to have a slower rate of fire than an M4A1 that has been in the field used widely? That has been my experience, even though the recoil spring may be slightly fatigued on the used gun. This is due to the used gun has all the wear surfaces smoothed out, the gas rings are broken in (less friction closing the bolt), and even more critical in terms of cyclic rate is that the used gun's gas port in the barrel will be eroded, which means more gas into the FSB and down the gas tube, pushing the action open more violently, speeding up the rate of fire. |
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Quoted: A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. For the OP: ROF varies greatly based upon three main factors. Gas port (size & location), cyclic mass(bcg & buffer) and ammunition used. |
 Quoted:
A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. im sure 9mm is easier to control but with practice a m16 even with a 10.5" upper can manage good lethal accuracy. |
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Quoted: A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. A 16in mid-length with an adjustable gas block, a good compensator and an H2 buffer will give you a very loud and very easy M16 like rifle to control. My 12 year old daughter can put 30 rds into a 12 in circle at 25 yds in one full-auto burst. As others have said, technique and training win everytime though. The UZI smokes the MP5 in terms of control-ability. The MP5 only has a weight advantage. If weight is the issue, and although about a pound heavier, then the ramped bolt colt with an extra heavy 9mm buffer and a compensator is the choice IMHO. |
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Good to see so many experienced M16 owners and shooters weighing in here.
To the OP: After almost a half-century of development, the M16 is the Barbie Doll of MGs: You can change the ROF at will by changing barrels, buffers, springs and ammo. Even within the mil spec, there have been many different rates of fire developed for specific applications. T-TAC: While renting MGs is fun, unless you have very deep pockets, you will never get enough trigger time to learn how to shoot them. My Colt M16A1 runs a JP match trigger, which helps a great deal, but even with a completely mil spec FCG, I can catch doubles at will, and even singles if the ROF is set low enough, with the selector set at FULL ... through sheer trigger control. Yes, this comes with experience, but not that much once you become familiar enough with the firearm, and focus on trigger control. A semi is a tool; a machine gun is a power tool. Use any power tool -- a drill press, a jackhammer, a sawzall -- for the first time, and you prolly will not do as well as you would with a handheld drill, a hammer or a saw. Once you get familiar with it, you will be able to do so much more with a power tool than you can with a manual one. And after you put 70-80k rounds through an MG ... well, semiauto is superfluous. Gene Stoner designed the AR15 as a full-auto firearm. Semi ARs are that same design ... with its testicles removed. Your Mileage May Vary. 
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Every 4th of July, I get really excited buying those 100 pack of Blackcat firecrackers and then slowly undoing the firecrackers one at a time and slowly lighting them one at a time... Let's not kid ourselves! As to the last comment directly above, the semi auto bolt is known as a 'neutered' bolt for a reason. |
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Quoted:
A friend of mine had a real deal m16. Total waste of money. First shot or two hits the target and then the rest goes over the target. In our state full auto can't have a semi feature. Just too much climb. Better off buying a used semi auto Colt SP-1. More accurate and a whole lot cheaper. Now if you want to talk a great full auto gun, The Heckler and Koch Mp5. I have also shot a rental MP5. You can get three good busts on target before the 30 round mag is empty. The lighter sub caliber 9mm and the delayed roller block action makes it very controlable. 30 rd mag dump of 5.56 is perfectly controllable. |
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I'll just throw out there that i've only used my .22 kit once with my m16..while .22 is pretty gay.It cycles retarded fast..
As far as not being able to hit anything, i have some trouble. I also have no training, and only alittle experience since i've only had mine a year. Anything less that 100yards is pretty easy....i'm trying to get better at the 100-250 yard range.. Fun stuff either way |
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