Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/24/2005 8:11:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 8:12:16 PM EDT by DaChop]
Picked up an M14 at a gun show. It is a Federal Arms receiver? Everything I read raves about SA rifles but I don't see much mention of this company. What can anyone tell me about it?

http://img282.imageshack.us/img282/5091/m1apost27ju.jpg
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 8:24:09 PM EDT
Does it have GI parts or Chinese parts? Federal Ordnance did both.

I haven't heard much good about Fed Ord as far as their assembly methods.

Clint McKee has some not very nice things to say about the geometry of the receivers on his M14 FAQ. Fed Ord has been out of business for a while. I would at least check the FAQ entry at Fulton Armory's website. It has a photo of the shop.

Me, I've never had one, and don't reckon I ever will. I've had both Polytech and Springfield, very pre-ban with all USGI parts save the receiver.

Good luck - it's a pretty rifle!
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:24:23 PM EDT
From what I have read, The Federal Arms can be hit or miss, make sure it has USGI Parts and make sure the headspace is good to go

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:31:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 5:18:34 AM EDT by Different]
From my book M14 Rifle History and Development Revision 1 copyright 2005:

"A. R. Sales Co., National Ordnance, Inc. and Federal Ordnance, Inc.

A. R. Sales was owned by Illia I. Karnes. Bob Penny, a business partner of Illia’s husband, Jack Karnes, may have also been involved with A. R. Sales. Jack Karnes, his wife Illia, and their two children ran the company.

Ford Motor Company was formed on June 16, 1903 by Henry Ford and eleven other business associates. In 1925, Ford Motor Company bought Lincoln Motor Company, a manufacturer of luxury automobiles. For the 1972 model year, Lincoln introduced the Mark IV two-door luxury sport coupe. The Mark IV was longer, wider and slightly lighter than its very popular predecessor; the Lee Iacocca designed Lincoln Mark III. The 1972 Mark IV was Ford’s answer to General Motors Corporation’s Cadillac Eldorado and was a major success for Ford Motor Company. Lincoln Mark IV automobile production ended with the 1976 model year. Mr. Maunz was impressed with the plush style of the 1972 Lincoln Mark IV. Thus, he suggested to A. R. Sales that its semi-automatic M14 receiver be named Mark IV.

It appears that A. R. Sales started on the semi-automatic M14 type rifle project in October, 1971. There were two production lots for the company, one in 1974 and the other in 1976. The first production lot of Mark IV receivers was cast at Rimer Casting Company using Karl Maunz’s receiver master die. The second production batch of Mark IV receivers was cast at Gray-Syracuse, Inc. and machined by Valley Ordnance Co. The first lot of receiver serial numbers ended somewhere between 1 and 225. The receiver serial numbers for the second lot were started at a number below 225 and ended at number 450. Twenty-five serial numbers were skipped between the first lot and the second lot. Mr. Maunz’s receiver master die was also used to produce receiver castings for National Ordnance semi-automatic M14 type rifles (see below). A. R. Sales Mark IV receivers are of decent quality. 2 A. R. Sales was sold off some time after the second production run of Mark IV rifles in 1976.

At the same time, in the early 1970s, when A. R. Sales was developing its Mark IV receiver, John Arnold was pursuing the same goal of manufacturing and marketing his own semi-automatic M14 type receiver. Mr. Arnold owned National Ordnance, Inc., a firearm manufacturing company, and Federal Ordnance, a firearm parts and ammunition supplier. Mr. Wyant Lamont, Jr., managed the day-to-day operations of National Ordnance. The two sister businesses were located adjacent to one another on Alpaca Street at Potrero Avenue in South El Monte, CA, about one-quarter mile from A. R. Sales. From 1965 to 1970, National Ordnance produced 22,500 newly manufactured M1903A3 receivers and assembled them into complete rifles using USGI surplus parts. National Ordnance also manufactured 2000 M1 Garand welded and investment cast receivers and an unknown number of M1 Carbine investment cast receivers in the 1960s. The M1 Carbine and newly manufactured M1 Garand receivers were cast by Rimer Casting Company.

A very small number of National Ordnance stamped semi-automatic M14 type rifles were produced. These receivers were investment cast by Rimer Casting Co but machined by another Ohio business. National Ordnance went out of business about 1974 or shortly thereafter with the death of Mr. Arnold. As part of the liquidation of the company’s assets, assembled M14 type rifles and parts kits were sold off. The author is not aware of any collaboration that existed between A. R. Sales and National Ordnance on M14 receiver development.

Bob Brenner restarted Federal Ordnance by no later than April, 1982. Jack Karnes went to work for Bob Brenner when Federal Ordnance was revived. In early 1982, Federal Ordnance had plans to produce M1 Garand Rifles using newly manufactured receivers. By 1987, Federal Ordnance was located at 1443 Potrero Avenue South El Monte, CA 91733. It sold military surplus firearms. Federal Ordnance also sold lightweight alloy M1911 style pistol frames marketed under its name and a trade name as well as selling a Springfield Armory, Inc. high-end M1911 style pistol. Reportedly, the lightweight alloy M1911 style pistol frames were originally marketed by A. R. Sales in the early 1970s.

Federal Ordnance began production of its M14 type rifles by 1986 and ended around 1992. Karl Maunz supplied some receiver castings in 1987 to Federal Ordnance. Federal Ordnance M14 type rifle serial number 22XX was inspected in the factory on February 26, 1987. Likewise, rifle serial number 677X was inspected at the factory on November 17, 1989. Federal Ordnance receivers machined while Jack Karnes was on board were of good quality. 3

The Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price for a Federal Ordnance M14SA in 1988 was $629.00. The rifles were sold with a one year parts and labor warranty. Each Federal Ordnance M14 type rifle sold was accompanied by a factory inspection tag, warranty registration card, a copy of U. S. Army FM 23-8 and a booklet on firearms safety. The factory inspection tag included the following information about each rifle: date, stock number, a description, caliber, and signature fields for checking of headspace, test firing and inspection. The stock number for the fiberglass stock M14 was GU-0715. USGI M14 accessories such as magazines, magazine pouches, slings and cleaning kits were available from Federal Ordnance.

Federal Ordnance built two types of M14 rifles, one with USGI parts and one with Chinese parts. USGI parts were used extensively in Federal Ordnance rifles through at least S/N 8877. Through at least serial number 394X the USGI parts were taken off USGI M14 rifles imported from Israel. By serial number 205XX, if not earlier, Chinese and Taiwanese reproduction parts were used to assemble its rifles. For example, Federal Ordnance M14SA serial number 502XX was assembled at the factory on September 13, 1991 with Chinese manufacture bolt, operating rod, trigger group and barrel. Federal Ordnance sold complete rifles as well as stripped receivers.

Synthetic stocks on Federal Ordnance M14 rifles may not have been USGI models but of unknown commercial manufacture. The original owner of Federal Ordnance M14SA serial number 22XX reports that the synthetic stock never had a selector cutout or USGI markings inside the magazine well. Further, the Federal Ordnance stock had a slightly rough finish. The butt plate was glossy black color instead of phosphate coated.

Century Arms International (then 48 Lower Newton Street St. Albans, VT 05478) assembled some of these Federal Ordnance receivers with Chinese parts at their facilities in Montreal, Quebec, Canada in 1990 just before the imported parts ban of November 29, 1990, brought them into the United States with the military style features (twenty round magazine, bayonet lug, flash suppressor, and hinged butt plate) which was legal at the time and sold them to the commercial market. Century Arms International ceased operations in Montreal around 1993.

The Federal Ordnance marking may be located on the right receiver leg instead of the receiver heel for Century Arms International assembled rifles. Some Federal Ordnance M14SA receivers have serial numbers with the letter C prefix followed by a hyphen then four digits, e.g., C-0116. These letter C prefix serial number receivers were sold as stripped receivers to Century Arms International in 1990 for assembly into complete rifles. Century Arms International assembled very few M14 type rifles with Federal Ordnance receivers and Chinese parts, as compared to the number of Chinese rifles it later sold. Serial number C-0388 is the highest serial number for this series observed to date."

Here is a 2005 photograph of the former address of Federal Ordnance, Inc. of South El Monte, CA.



Here's a Federal Ordnance M14 factory inspection tag and warranty registration card:


Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:40:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kk7sm:
Does it have GI parts or Chinese parts? Federal Ordnance did both.

I haven't heard much good about Fed Ord as far as their assembly methods.

Clint McKee has some not very nice things to say about the geometry of the receivers on his M14 FAQ. Fed Ord has been out of business for a while. I would at least check the FAQ entry at Fulton Armory's website. It has a photo of the shop.

Me, I've never had one, and don't reckon I ever will. I've had both Polytech and Springfield, very pre-ban with all USGI parts save the receiver.

Good luck - it's a pretty rifle!



How can I tell whether the parts are US or Chinese?

I took it to the range yesterday for the first time and the rifle was rock solid. It needs to be cleaned but I wanted to shoot it anyways...so I did. I put 20 rounds of .308 Winchester through it and then about 50 rounds of Russian 7.62 down the pipe.

The guy I got it from at the gun show told me that the receiver and parts were US made and that it wasn't Chinese but I don't know enough about them to know the difference.

In the 70 or so rounds I put down the pipe....not one failure of any kind. No FTE, FTF at all and everything worked great. Bolt held open on the last round, action worked easily when I needed it...etc.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 5:58:09 AM EDT
Easiest way is to post the markings you see on your rifle parts here in this thread. We can tell you what you have.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:34:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 6:45:05 AM EDT by DaChop]
Ok thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

The receiver has U.S. Rifle on it with 7.62MM M14A below that. Next line is Fed. Ord. Inc. Then serial number in the 77xx range.

On the top of the bolt where it closes is the following number 7790185
66118
A

On the front of the receiver on the left side up above the front of the magazine is an F with a circle around it.

Inside the stock where the magazine is inserted the stock is marked on the right side with D-3742 GB-3 and DT

No marks that I can see on the trigger. It is still in the rifle so I don't know if it needs to be removed to see the marks or not.

Front sight has either a Zero or an O on the front of it.

Barrel is hard to distinguish however it appears to be H R 7790190 11-61 I

Bipod is US W.M.I. Rifle M2

Hope this gets you guys in the ballpark.

Edit to Add....I am able to see down into the trigger assembly and make out at least a partial number.... TRW 554600?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:45:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DaChop:
Ok thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

The receiver has U.S. Rifle on it with 7.62MM M14A below that. Next line is Fed. Ord. Inc. Then serial number in the 77xx range.

On the top of the bolt where it closes is the following number 7790185
66118
A

On the front of the receiver on the left side up above the front of the magazine is an F with a circle around it.

Inside the stock where the magazine is inserted the stock is marked on the right side with D-3742 GB-3 and DT

No marks that I can see on the trigger. It is still in the rifle so I don't know if it needs to be removed to see the marks or not.

Front sight has either a Zero or an O on the front of it.

Barrel is hard to distinguish however it appears to be H R 7790190 11-61 I

Bipod is US W.M.I. Rifle M2

Hope this gets you guys in the ballpark.



The bipod is Chinese if the clamping bolt has a screwdriver slot. Otherwise, it's a Taiwanese bipod. The barrel is USGI Harrington & Richardson made in November, 1961. The stock is synthetic USGI. If you remove the trigger group look for markings on the hammer and the right hand side of the trigger group housing. The bolt is the early version USGI model and it was made by Winchester. Also, if you remove the stock you should see some markings on the operating rod.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:56:50 AM EDT
Well it seems to have GI parts overall then huh?

How about this picture...is this odd or normal?

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/7852/m14post1vh.jpg
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 6:58:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Different:

Originally Posted By DaChop:
Ok thanks for the help. I appreciate it.

The receiver has U.S. Rifle on it with 7.62MM M14A below that. Next line is Fed. Ord. Inc. Then serial number in the 77xx range.

On the top of the bolt where it closes is the following number 7790185
66118
A

On the front of the receiver on the left side up above the front of the magazine is an F with a circle around it.

Inside the stock where the magazine is inserted the stock is marked on the right side with D-3742 GB-3 and DT

No marks that I can see on the trigger. It is still in the rifle so I don't know if it needs to be removed to see the marks or not.

Front sight has either a Zero or an O on the front of it.

Barrel is hard to distinguish however it appears to be H R 7790190 11-61 I

Bipod is US W.M.I. Rifle M2

Hope this gets you guys in the ballpark.



The bipod is Chinese if the clamping bolt has a screwdriver slot. Otherwise, it's a Taiwanese bipod. The barrel is USGI Harrington & Richardson made in November, 1961. The stock is synthetic USGI. If you remove the trigger group look for markings on the hammer and the right hand side of the trigger group housing. The bolt is the early version USGI model and it was made by Winchester. Also, if you remove the stock you should see some markings on the operating rod.



How about this on the trigger?

Edit to Add....I am able to see down into the trigger assembly and make out at least a partial number.... TRW 554600?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:15:32 AM EDT
The "hole" in the stock is known as the selector cutout. That is where most of the select fire components reside in the USGI M14. You have a TRW hammer in the trigger group. It looks like your rifle was assembled at the factory with USGI parts.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 8:37:54 AM EDT
What do you think a rifle like this is worth considering it is a Federal receiver?

It functioned flawlessly so far.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:25:34 AM EDT
$400.00 seems to be the market price for Federal Ordnance receivers. I recently purchased a very late serial number Federal Ordnance M14SA receiver for $425.00. Your receiver was made for USGI parts so that is a big plus. Strip off all the parts and you could get $800 to $1000 for the parts as a USGI M14 parts kit. The complete Federal Ordnance rifles seem to fetch about $800 but IMO they are undervalued. Your rifle is just as good as a lightly used Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A with all USGI parts which sell for $1100 to $1300 now. Right or wrong, it is the USGI parts content that is driving/keeping the cost of these rifles where they are in the used/private sales market.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:50:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 9:55:53 AM EDT by DaChop]
Well that makes me feel better. I purchased the complete rifle for 550 dollars including the bipod and sling. I only function tested it this weekend, I will run several hundred rounds through it next weekend to see how it runs.

I took my AR and the M14 to the range and had nothing but issues with the AR and nothing but good luck with the M14. Other than my shot gun it is becoming my favorite rifle.

Different....I can't tell you how much I appreciate you taking the time to answer the questions of a newb on this M14. I am sure had other things you could be doing and I wanted you to know I appreciate your help. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 10:06:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 10:06:58 AM EDT by Different]
DaChop, you did very well. I wish I could find such a deal. No problem, I'm glad to help.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 12:09:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DaChop:
I purchased the complete rifle for 550 dollars including the bipod and sling.



Damn!

You did great!
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 12:33:37 PM EDT
Yep, looks good - USGI parts. I'd check the headspace on it and the firing pin retraction helix, and if they are good, you're set. Those are the two really critical dimensions, in my opinion.

Either way, with the GI parts, you done good!
Link Posted: 9/27/2005 6:08:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DaChop:
Well it seems to have GI parts overall then huh?

How about this picture...is this odd or normal?

img112.imageshack.us/img112/7852/m14post1vh.jpg





That "Cut out" is for the Selector switch
Top Top