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Posted: 10/24/2013 7:07:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 7:07:48 AM EST by Eric802]
Hey all,

I have a quick "legal" question for you. Over the past few years I have bought several stripped lowers and tuned them into builds. Looking back, I always saved the receipts from who I bought them from, but they don't have serial numbers on them. The FFL's I used never have me anything either. So basically, I have a bunch of lowers with the reciepts but they don't have the serial numbers on them.

What do you guys do for documentation like this? My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:38:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
Hey all,

I have a quick "legal" question for you. Over the past few years I have bought several stripped lowers and tuned them into builds. Looking back, I always saved the receipts from who I bought them from, but they don't have serial numbers on them. The FFL's I used never have me anything either. So basically, I have a bunch of lowers with the reciepts but they don't have the serial numbers on them.

What do you guys do for documentation like this? My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?
View Quote

Are you saying you want to be able to someday prove they are "pre-ban"? If so, the serial number on the lower will give all the necessary information.

Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:54:42 AM EST
once you filled out the 4473 it's in the data base
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:57:56 AM EST
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
The FFL's I used never have me anything either.
View Quote



I hope the FFL has the info. They might not want to go through their books and give it to you, but they should have it. If you have the dates of purchase the FFL should be able to find it fairly easy but it can be a PITA.

I've had so many firearms come and go that I really don't bother with reciepts anymore. I keep an updated list w/serial numbers of my current inventory on file. My dad also has a copy. I add/delete when needed.

Personally, I would just right the serial numbers on the reciept. The ATF can find where they came from and where they should be through the serial number.



Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?
View Quote


Who's telling you this?
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 6:58:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
once you filled out the 4473 it's in the data base
View Quote


What?
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 7:11:44 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:



I hope the FFL has the info. They might not want to go through their books and give it to you, but they should have it. If you have the dates of purchase the FFL should be able to find it fairly easy but it can be a PITA.

I've had so many firearms come and go that I really don't bother with reciepts anymore. I keep an updated list w/serial numbers of my current inventory on file. My dad also has a copy. I add/delete when needed.

Personally, I would just right the serial numbers on the reciept. The ATF can find where they came from and where they should be through the serial number.





Who's telling you this?
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Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
The FFL's I used never have me anything either.



I hope the FFL has the info. They might not want to go through their books and give it to you, but they should have it. If you have the dates of purchase the FFL should be able to find it fairly easy but it can be a PITA.

I've had so many firearms come and go that I really don't bother with reciepts anymore. I keep an updated list w/serial numbers of my current inventory on file. My dad also has a copy. I add/delete when needed.

Personally, I would just right the serial numbers on the reciept. The ATF can find where they came from and where they should be through the serial number.



Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?


Who's telling you this?


I guess that's what I was looking for. I'm just gettin so darn many guns, I just want to be able to prove when I got them and everything. I don't know.... If you guys say don't worry about it, I guess I won't.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 7:23:34 AM EST
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Originally Posted By tbougie1:
once you filled out the 4473 it's in the data base
View Quote


What database would this be?
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 7:50:21 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:


I guess that's what I was looking for. I'm just gettin so darn many guns, I just want to be able to prove when I got them and everything. I don't know.... If you guys say don't worry about it, I guess I won't.
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Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
The FFL's I used never have me anything either.



I hope the FFL has the info. They might not want to go through their books and give it to you, but they should have it. If you have the dates of purchase the FFL should be able to find it fairly easy but it can be a PITA.

I've had so many firearms come and go that I really don't bother with reciepts anymore. I keep an updated list w/serial numbers of my current inventory on file. My dad also has a copy. I add/delete when needed.

Personally, I would just right the serial numbers on the reciept. The ATF can find where they came from and where they should be through the serial number.



Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?


Who's telling you this?


I guess that's what I was looking for. I'm just gettin so darn many guns, I just want to be able to prove when I got them and everything. I don't know.... If you guys say don't worry about it, I guess I won't.

Remember, this is a country of innocent until proven guilty. If there is no reason to suspect that you are illegally in possession of them, there is no need to show any proof. Just owning them isn't suspicious.

The burden of proof is on them, not you.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 8:29:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 8:30:59 AM EST by gtfoxy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Will816:

Remember, this is a country of innocent until proven guilty. If there is no reason to suspect that you are illegally in possession of them, there is no need to show any proof. Just owning them isn't suspicious.

The burden of proof is on them, not you.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Will816:
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
The FFL's I used never have me anything either.



I hope the FFL has the info. They might not want to go through their books and give it to you, but they should have it. If you have the dates of purchase the FFL should be able to find it fairly easy but it can be a PITA.

I've had so many firearms come and go that I really don't bother with reciepts anymore. I keep an updated list w/serial numbers of my current inventory on file. My dad also has a copy. I add/delete when needed.

Personally, I would just right the serial numbers on the reciept. The ATF can find where they came from and where they should be through the serial number.



Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
My fear is that some say I may need to show proof of when I bought them?


Who's telling you this?


I guess that's what I was looking for. I'm just gettin so darn many guns, I just want to be able to prove when I got them and everything. I don't know.... If you guys say don't worry about it, I guess I won't.

Remember, this is a country of innocent until proven guilty. If there is no reason to suspect that you are illegally in possession of them, there is no need to show any proof. Just owning them isn't suspicious.

The burden of proof is on them, not you.


Except when say going across state lines.

Now NY, NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.

A receipt with the Serial number is a way. The other is have a state registration.

Moral here, don't take your guns into Crazy Liberal States.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 8:52:17 AM EST
That's what I'm worried about. Here in CO an absolute crazy liberal takeover is possible. I just want to be prepared.

It just bothered me that normally when you buy a gun, the serials number is on the recipt. My lowers however, we're bought from vendors Online. I have the recipts but they say nothing about a serial #.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 8:53:40 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.
View Quote



Link Posted: 10/24/2013 10:07:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2013 10:14:06 AM EST by VSelph]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:



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Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 10:45:30 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:



It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.


So if the police pull me over(for a minor traffic violation) on the way to the range, they can take my guns because I don't have a receipt? Please tell me where I can find this law.

FWIW, when I moved into this shit state, I brought a handful of NJ legal firearms into the state. I have called the state police regarding this. Registering a firearm is not mandatory. Why anyone would volunteer is beyond me but whatever. I have several pistols that have belonged to me that I bought in Louisiana many years ago and I don't have a receipt. They can not take my guns from me for that reason. Now they can fabricate any reason they want to for taking my firearms but it won't be legal seizure.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 12:22:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:


So if the police pull me over(for a minor traffic violation) on the way to the range, they can take my guns because I don't have a receipt? Please tell me where I can find this law.

FWIW, when I moved into this shit state, I brought a handful of NJ legal firearms into the state. I have called the state police regarding this. Registering a firearm is not mandatory. Why anyone would volunteer is beyond me but whatever. I have several pistols that have belonged to me that I bought in Louisiana many years ago and I don't have a receipt. They can not take my guns from me for that reason. Now they can fabricate any reason they want to for taking my firearms but it won't be legal seizure.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.


So if the police pull me over(for a minor traffic violation) on the way to the range, they can take my guns because I don't have a receipt? Please tell me where I can find this law.

FWIW, when I moved into this shit state, I brought a handful of NJ legal firearms into the state. I have called the state police regarding this. Registering a firearm is not mandatory. Why anyone would volunteer is beyond me but whatever. I have several pistols that have belonged to me that I bought in Louisiana many years ago and I don't have a receipt. They can not take my guns from me for that reason. Now they can fabricate any reason they want to for taking my firearms but it won't be legal seizure.

+1

Again, in this nation, the burden of proof lies with the state. If they want to charge you with a crime (or confiscate your guns or whatever) they need to prove that they do not belong to you if you are otherwise in lawful possession of them. How many people have inherited guns or been gifted guns? I know I have.

In the case of states like NJ and NY, you are almost never in lawful possession. I'm strictly speaking of being in lawful possession. Think of it like a laptop (or ANYTHING). If I am in possession of a laptop and a cop sees it, they would have no right to suspect I was not in lawful possession of it. If they saw me running out of Best Buy with it and employees coming out after me or pointing, then they would have reason to believe that it was not mine.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 2:29:23 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By M4_man_223:
That's what I'm worried about. Here in CO an absolute crazy liberal takeover is possible. I just want to be prepared.

It just bothered me that normally when you buy a gun, the serials number is on the recipt. My lowers however, we're bought from vendors Online. I have the recipts but they say nothing about a serial #.
View Quote


Incorrect. the lowers were purchased from an online vendor, that by law required transfer through a FFL. If you're gonna be that worried about serial numbers you should have phrased your post differently.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 2:31:22 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:



It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.
Link Posted: 10/24/2013 9:51:57 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jim:




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jim:
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.




Link Posted: 10/25/2013 2:31:03 AM EST
For proof of ownership, insurance claim or theft reporting purposes, write down all the serial numbers along with a description of the completed configuration of each build (photos would also be nice) along with each receipt and a summary of "as-built" costs for each completed gun. Keep that record separate from where you store your guns. If it makes you feel better, you could make a cover page and have it notarized but that really isn't necessary.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 3:53:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2013 3:56:43 AM EST by ultramagbrion]
oops
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 8:08:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2013 8:10:44 AM EST by johnreilly]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.




View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By jim:
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.






So you're telling me that if the 60 year old 12 gauge that was my grandfathers is ever stolen I'll have to provide a receipt to the police to recover it? Horseshit!

I had a .45 stolen about ten years ago out of a vehicle and when it was recovered in a meth bust I just went down to the PD and walked out with it. I don't think I even signed a receipt. They just handed it to me.

You gave a copy of a receipt to the police before they would file a theft report? Come on.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 8:19:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.




View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By jim:
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.





Move to a free state







Link Posted: 10/25/2013 8:36:37 AM EST
Look,

All I can do is tell you about my experience. I would have been properly fucked without my original receipts.

You can call bullshit all you want I honestly don't care.

Link Posted: 10/25/2013 9:05:25 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Look,

All I can do is tell you about my experience. I would have been properly fucked without my original receipts.

You can call bullshit all you want I honestly don't care.

View Quote

I believe you, this is what lawyers are for - and channel 9 news b/c you do live in a free state so it'll actually get coverage
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 9:25:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2013 9:26:32 AM EST by Hydra-shokz]
What I am saying is " that police can not seize your firearms solely for the reason of not having a receipt." I'm not talking about picking up a stolen/lost/whatever firearm from your local PD. I would hope that the PD would verify ownership of such firearm if it was recovered from somewhere it shouldn't have been. It's a good idea to write down your serial numbers, date of purchase and the FFL you filled out the 4473 with. By chance you loose such firearm in anyway, you can call the FFL and ask them for a copy of the 4473. Knowing the date you bought it is a very helpful factor. The FFL may be a dick and even charge you, if he/she has to look through 3 years of books to find your shit.

Having a firearm seized because you don't have the fucking receipt is bullshit!!!
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 10:38:57 AM EST
I don't know how many guns I actually have unless I sit there for 5 minutes, & I might miss one or two. I don't have receipts on any of 'em, dead hookers don't write receipts unless the dealer left one in the box on one or two. I don't have any documentation on the guns I've sold either. I sold 'em @ a gun show to Allah knows who, or gave it to a friend of mine, or an acquaintance.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 11:04:36 AM EST
your driver's license in the pic with the serial should be more than enough.
Link Posted: 10/25/2013 1:36:47 PM EST
I have no documentation on any of my long rifles, acquired thru the years face to face, cash and carry, even a few from yard sales. 100% legal, you are not required to have any documentation, the only time that documentation is required is when purchased thru a FFL or if your state lists that particular firearm as regulated, Pistols etc, and now here in NY AR's will be required to be registered(fu gov coumo aint gunna happen!!!). I have been pulled over in a few unsuccessfull revenue generation stops lately(said I was talking on a cell phone while driving and I don't even own one! LOL) and I am always armed, at least with the Encore riding in the truck and they merely run the serial# for a theft report.
Link Posted: 10/26/2013 8:36:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.




View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By jim:
Originally Posted By VSelph:
Originally Posted By Hydra-shokz:
Originally Posted By gtfoxy:

NJ and others have laws that if you do not have proof of ownership, they can seize your firearm.






It's not BS and it's not just in blue states.

In most places the police won't release a firearm back to you if you don't provide them with a receipt showing proof of ownership.

If your FFL is respectable they will write you a receipt with the serial number, caliber, make, & model on it.




Bullshit. to dat ei have never had to prove ownership / documentation on any firearm when out of state. Even in CA.


Atlanta PD would not turn over my recovered firearms unless I "proved" ownership of said firearms and passed a background check. Further I had to give copies of my original receipt to responding officers when I filed the report to begin with. I was told that this is SOP everywhere.





So they wouldn't give you your stuff back unless you had receipts to prove they were indeed yours and you had to pass a background check again?? man that blows, hope I never have to deal with that crap.
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