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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/29/2002 4:46:06 PM EST
Does anyone know the going rate for a LL and is there a kit to make them 3 pos instead of FA only??
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 4:50:22 PM EST
Around $2500. Yes, there is a kit (from John Norrel, I think) for three positions.
Link Posted: 7/29/2002 5:13:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/29/2002 5:14:45 PM EST by Arock]
Sobekra70...this might be better addressed in the Full Auto Forum.

And keep the discussion to "What" not "How".
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:37:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By Arock:
And keep the discussion to "What" not "How".



What's wrong with asking "HOW to use a LL?" Seems reasonable to me! :-)

mark
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 1:16:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By budam:

Originally Posted By Arock:
And keep the discussion to "What" not "How".



What's wrong with asking "HOW to use a LL?" Seems reasonable to me! :-)

mark



Forum Conduct Code: 2c) ...this would include information on how to make illegal modifications to firearms, purchase illegal items...

As long as we're talking about the legal application of a component it's good to go.

What won't happen is discussion of HOW TO MAKE an ILLEGAL MODIFICATION of a firearm. Or HOW TO MAUFACTURE a POTENTIALLY ILLEGAL COMPONENT.

As you should know this site is monitored and we've got to keep it clean. We have a good reputation and we're going to preserve it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:08:22 AM EST
FYI.........,

in the back of Duncan Longs book "The Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook" copyright edition 1992.....

you will find "selective fire conversions" info......
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:29:41 AM EST

FYI.........,

in the back of Duncan Longs book "The Complete AR-15/M16 Sourcebook" copyright edition 1992.....

you will find "selective fire conversions" info......


Oh no!!! Don't get this locked!!! I'm SURE you're talking about setting up a transferrable LL on a Form 4 or Form 3, are you not?

The original poster might want to check over at Subguns. They always have a few for sale and there always seems to be a discussion on LL vs. RDIAS vs. RR, etc.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 7:26:02 AM EST
If you don't mind me asking just what is a Lightning Link.

I know what a DIAS is and kinda how it works but what is different about the LL??

Also, since i'm on the subject if you obtain one legally I guess you could use it in your post 1986 firearm?? Does anyone know??
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 8:51:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 8:51:59 AM EST by Jim_Dandy]

If you don't mind me asking just what is a Lightning Link.

I know what a DIAS is and kinda how it works but what is different about the LL??


A Lightning Link is a rather crude piece of sheet metal that lays down in the lower receiver and trips the disconnector on a normal AR15, thus allowing full auto fire. Unlike a DIAS, it functions with the basic AR15 parts and doesn't require any M16 items.






Also, since i'm on the subject if you obtain one legally I guess you could use it in your post 1986 firearm?? Does anyone know??

Yes, they are legal to use in any AR15, regardless of manufacture date. The BATF considers the LL to be the firearm, not the actual AR15.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:41:31 PM EST
If I purchased one of these, would I have to have the sear
block removed for it to function ?
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 12:50:14 PM EST

If I purchased one of these, would I have to have the sear
block removed for it to function ?


I'm pretty sure you do, but not for certain. TommyBrown or Circuits (or most any C2/C3 or LL owner) could tell you for sure.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 1:11:44 PM EST
Hey Jim,

Not trying to start an arguement, but how are LL's legal? My understanding was that there is no such thing as a legal LL...if it's going to be viewed as a firearm, it needs to be pre-86, and I find it hard to believe anyone registered one....

That being said, a couple years ago, before the site upgrade there was a hilarious link about someone's grandmother or something who used to make LL's out of tin cans, and when they got too bent out of shape she'd beat them with a rock on the bumper of her pickup, drop it back in, and go right back to rock n roll....Goes to show you, where there is a will to get something done, there absolutely is a way....


Live Free or Die.

Vass
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 1:20:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 1:28:53 PM EST by Jim_Dandy]

Not trying to start an arguement, but how are LL's legal? My understanding was that there is no such thing as a legal LL...if it's going to be viewed as a firearm, it needs to be pre-86, and I find it hard to believe anyone registered one....

Believe it. There are lots of pre-'86 registered LLs out there on Form 4s and Form 3s, all in the $2500 price neighborhood. Of course, C2s and C3s can buy and sell the post-'86 DS stuff for $25 or so. That's real fair.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:12:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Not trying to start an arguement, but how are LL's legal? My understanding was that there is no such thing as a legal LL...if it's going to be viewed as a firearm, it needs to be pre-86, and I find it hard to believe anyone registered one....

Believe it. There are lots of pre-'86 registered LLs out there on Form 4s and Form 3s, all in the $2500 price neighborhood. Of course, C2s and C3s can buy and sell the post-'86 DS stuff for $25 or so. That's real fair.



So how do you go about getting one? Can you make one yourself? Any links to ATF regarding this or anywhere I can get this info? Any schematics available anywhere, ie dimensions? Do they have to have a form 4?
If I can get one legally for a reasonable price, I'll be all over it.
Thanks, Jim_Dandy.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:24:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 3:26:27 PM EST by Jim_Dandy]

Can you make one yourself?

Only a C2 is allowed to manufacture one currently.



So how do you go about getting one?

Seems like just about every C2/C3 has a transferable one or knows where one can be had.



Do they have to have a form 4?

They can be on a Form 3, too. The BATF considers the LL to be a machine gun.



If I can get one legally for a reasonable price, I'll be all over it.

$2500 seems to be about as reasonable as it gets.

Check your email.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:35:58 PM EST
Jim seems to be the guy who knows the most about it, but I would have to guess that a pre-86 LL is going to have the same legal standing as a pre-86 DIAS......which is to say, tenuous.

Spending that kind of money on a a couple of pieces of sheetmetal seems criminal. Again, it's been a while, but what are NFA 16's going for these days?

Also, if the LL is registered as a machinegun, and you modify your AR with it, do you have 2 machine guns? Reading the link on this site regarding the DIAS, it seems like murky legal water. The LL would have to somehow be permanently married to the AR to make it one machinegun, because following the logic of the info page linked here, http://www.ar15.com/articles/ , once a machinegun, forever and always a machine gun, and if you seperate the two, you've got 2 machineguns and only one is registered. I do not see any way to permanently marry the LL, so if that DIAS article is accurate, and it's been up here for a couple years, I can't see how this can be done without trouble.

It's absolutely pitiful that the laws are written so vaguely, are so open to interpretation, and are so riddled with non-legislative regulation that it's impossible to tell if you're in compliance or not.

That being said, it seems like the DIAS is a better alternative.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:41:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 3:43:13 PM EST by Vass]
actually, looks like my LL old lady story was something I saw somewhere else...here it is, with the specs on the LL

Now that I think about it, maybe I'll let ya'll seek it out on your own to avoid any potential problems for ar15.com..... Call me a sissy, but it isn't my house, I'm just a guest.

I can tell you it certainly was not difficult to find using Google and searching for Lightning Link AR.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 3:47:50 PM EST

Also, if the LL is registered as a machinegun, and you modify your AR with it, do you have 2 machine guns?

No, not at all. Only the LL is considered the machine gun. As long as the LL or RDIAS is serialed and on a Form 3 or Form 4 as transferrable, you're good to go. No murkiness, no gray areas. We're not talking the so-called "pre-November '81" DIASs in this case. These items are all legal to own in an otherwise NFA friendly state.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:01:12 PM EST
I think I saw them for sale in Shot Gun News for $25.00. You still have to pay the $250.00 Tax Stamp for it. Thats a little bit unreasonable a piece of metal for $2500 unless you mean $25.00
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:24:42 PM EST

I think I saw them for sale in Shot Gun News for $25.00.

Riiiiiiight. Let us know how that goes.



You still have to pay the $250.00 Tax Stamp for it.

Tax stamp is $200.



Thats a little bit unreasonable a piece of metal for $2500 unless you mean $25.00

It is a REGISTERED MACHINE GUN. Pay attention to MACHINE GUN PRICES. SInce May 19, 1986, there have been NO, repeat, NO machine guns manufactured for civilian consumption. There are a fixed number of transferrable guns out there. It's supply and demand.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:29:14 PM EST
Dandy's 100 percent right..You think the prices for MG's are steep now? Give it another decade.

My thought is that, while I can show you my lower with a nice fat serial number and maybe avoid problems, a LL is going to be a bit more of an issue. Who is to say when it was made? Sure, the burden is on ATF to prove you've broken the law in court, but I can just imagine sitting there trying to explain LL's to a jury.

I would like to hear from anyone here any stories they have dealing with the ATF when it comes to LL's or any other Class III. I have theories, but no practical application.

The theory goes something like, if you don't get yourself all over their radar, you can probably go out in the desert and play with your unregistered LL any time you want....

Vass
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:33:57 PM EST
So with the LL in the diagram above. Is your AR stuck on FA? or can you switch to SA without taking the LL out?
Please clarify this for me...
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:35:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 4:39:39 PM EST by Jim_Dandy]

My thought is that, while I can show you my lower with a nice fat serial number and maybe avoid problems, a LL is going to be a bit more of an issue. Who is to say when it was made? Sure, the burden is on ATF to prove you've broken the law in court, but I can just imagine sitting there trying to explain LL's to a jury.


Totally implausible. Who's to say the RR you're using is legal? You're worrying too much. The LL has a serial number on it just like on a firearm. You carry copies of your Form 4 with that serial number on it whenever you go shoot. You're making wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much out of a non-issue.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:37:42 PM EST

So with the LL in the diagram above. Is your AR stuck on FA? or can you switch to SA without taking the LL out?
Please clarify this for me...


That's right. Under normal circumstances, a LL will give you just FA and safe. However, the Norrell kit is supposed to give you all of the function as with a RDIAS or RR.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:43:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

So with the LL in the diagram above. Is your AR stuck on FA? or can you switch to SA without taking the LL out?
Please clarify this for me...


That's right. Under normal circumstances, a LL will give you just FA and safe. However, the Norrell kit is supposed to give you all of the function as with a RDIAS or RR.



Do you know how much that kit costs??



Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:44:55 PM EST
As someone who has been shopping for a budget-priced full auto, I can add the following information and opinions:

1)Fact: Registered Lightning Links DO exist. At least some of them were made by the SWD corporation and are also known as "Auto-Connectors". Their form is somewhat different than the "Lightning Link" drawings posted here, but their function is identical.

2)Opinion: No modification to the host firearm is necessary for the Lightning Link to function unless there is a sear block in it (Since I don't know how far down the sear block goes, I don't know if the LL would slide under it or not)

3)Opinion: In dealing with NFA-registered parts, the PART is considered the machine gun. When mated to the host gun, the entire weapon becomes one entity, based upon the legal status of the NFA sear ( or auto connector in this case ). This means that pre- and post- ban does not apply. However, that being said, the moment that the registered LL or DIAS is removed, ALL parts pertaining to that special registered status must ALSO be removed, as the host gun then reverts to its normal, non-NFA legal status (whether pre- or post- ban AR)

4)Opinion:The Lightning Link is the most cost-effective way to legally get full auto fire. The last one I saw went for 2500 dollars. Remember that this is a LEGAL, REGISTERED, TRANSFERABLE NFA ITEM, and NOT a post-86 "Dealer/LEO only" 25.00 unit.

And yes, I'm shopping for one...just window shopping at the moment but someday I'll be ready to buy one and when I do, I'll look up the guy who does the 3-position dealie so I can go Safe-Full-Semi (I believe they are reversed in a LL gun due to the function of the LL, but I don't know for sure).

C3 dealers sometimes stumble across them. C2 manufacturers can repair damaged or broken ones, but not replace them, as they are a serial-numbered NFA item.

Like the man said, supply and demand. There are no more to be manufactured for civilian consumption, PERIOD. None can be replaced, only repaired, which means even as the supply dwindles, the demand remains the same, therefore the price goes up. Legal, transferable NFA items are IRREPLACEABLE.

Panz
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 4:45:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/30/2002 4:48:05 PM EST by Jim_Dandy]

Do you know how much that kit costs??

I don't know for sure, but you might ask over on Subguns. There's always someone selling that stuff or knows where to find it.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:15:31 PM EST
Hate to do this to you guys again, because it was long ago when I first got to this board and was much more active...I'm not just cutting it from whole cloth, as I am sure that some of the old timers can attest....

I was under the distinct impression that a damaged or destroyed NFA registered lower COULD be replaced, but it was a huge pain in the ass, basically entailing proof of total destruction of the old lower with the new lower being serialed identically as the old one....I do not know how this would fly with LL's, as one could be copied, destroyed, etc with very little effort and no interference/participation by say a Bushmaster or Colt that would have a hell of alot to lose if caught.

Then again, I remember having this conversation 2 years ago with people swearing up and down and backwards and forwards that there was no such animal as a registered LL, so I guess I need to start staying on top of this stuff again.

Live Free or Die.

Vass
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 5:48:17 PM EST

I was under the distinct impression that a damaged or destroyed NFA registered lower COULD be replaced, but it was a huge pain in the ass, basically entailing proof of total destruction of the old lower with the new lower being serialed identically as the old one....I do not know how this would fly with LL's, as one could be copied, destroyed, etc with very little effort and no interference/participation by say a Bushmaster or Colt that would have a hell of alot to lose if caught.

Nope. Destroyed = destroyed = destroyed. No replacement. You're under a big misconception.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:10:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

I was under the distinct impression that a damaged or destroyed NFA registered lower COULD be replaced, but it was a huge pain in the ass, basically entailing proof of total destruction of the old lower with the new lower being serialed identically as the old one....I do not know how this would fly with LL's, as one could be copied, destroyed, etc with very little effort and no interference/participation by say a Bushmaster or Colt that would have a hell of alot to lose if caught.

Nope. Destroyed = destroyed = destroyed. No replacement. You're under a big misconception.



Let us all again thank Ronnie Reagan for the current situation.
Link Posted: 7/30/2002 6:19:15 PM EST
The information in this post is correct. A lightning link is the cheapest route to full-auto in an AR. Lightning Links can and will break. They can be installed in any AR type rifle that they will fit in. They are the least reliable of the 3 types of full-auto ARs. The next best thing would be a RDIAS. They are built better and will last much longer. They run about $4000. Same rules apply to the RDIAS, they can go in any gun. The best option is the RR. Any part can be replaced in them with no issues. If the sear breaks, go buy a replacement and stick it in there. These start at $4500 and go up.

Lightning Links and RDIAS's can be fixed, but not replaced. If you loose it or break it beyond repair, you are out of luck. Registered receivers "can" be replaced by the manufacturer with ATF permission. Rumor has it Colt will not replace a Registered Lower. I don't plan on crushing mine, so I should not ever have to test this out.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 5:03:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By budam:

Originally Posted By Arock:
And keep the discussion to "What" not "How".



What's wrong with asking "HOW to use a LL?" Seems reasonable to me! :-)

mark



Forum Conduct Code: 2c) ...this would include information on how to make illegal modifications to firearms, purchase illegal items...




I think someone missed the smiley face at the end of the sentance.

Also realize, that saying we will not allow something that is illegal is a hard ball to hit. For some it may be illegal, but for others it may not be...

Have a great day!
mark
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 5:07:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
serialed and on a Form 3 or Form 4 as transferrable,



It could also be on a form 5.

mark
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 5:12:26 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vass:
...a LL is going to be a bit more of an issue. Who is to say when it was made? Sure, the burden is on ATF to prove you've broken the law in court, but I can just imagine sitting there trying to explain LL's to a jury.



A registered LL is in the NFA database and s then legal to xfer.

If it is not, then you have an illegal device.

The LL is a MG. You can put it into ANY AR15 that it will fit. When it is in a postban AR15, the POSTBAN is no longer in effect! You could put a flash suppressor, preban upper, etc. on your AR with LL installed. Once you remove the LL, it must meet the laws for AR15.

They are a great way on a budget to get into full auto.

Simple, Do the paperwork, pay the money and wait. Once you have it, have some fun!!!

mark
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 5:13:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Vass:

I was under the distinct impression that a damaged or destroyed NFA registered lower COULD be replaced, but it was a huge pain in the ass, basically entailing proof of total destruction of the old lower with the new lower being serialed identically as the old one....



I believe you're thinking about pre-ban semi's, not NFA.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 6:49:44 AM EST
I could have sworn it was a lighting link I saw for $25.00. I am going to look through the Paper and Mags again. The only other thing I could think it was called was a Hell Fire Link. If you guys say that much I trust you. I also meant $200.00 tax stamp not $250.00 thanks for the correction.
Could you imagine that Lighting link with the new belt fed AR15 upper's. Also if it is that much for a LL and it doesn't last that long is it really worth it. I remember using M16's in full and Burst. It's fun but in reality Semi does just has good and it's cheaper.
If you want a sub gun I think H&K is a better bet if you were allowed to have one.
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 11:42:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/31/2002 1:46:25 PM EST by Arock]

Originally Posted By sobekra70:
Does anyone know the going rate for a LL and is there a kit to make them 3 pos instead of FA only??



Between $2500 and $3000. As for the 3 pos kit,

Stay away from HOW.

If you want to keep posting here.

Arock
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 1:56:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By budam:

Originally Posted By Arock:

Originally Posted By budam:

Originally Posted By Arock:
And keep the discussion to "What" not "How".



What's wrong with asking "HOW to use a LL?" Seems reasonable to me! :-)

mark



Forum Conduct Code: 2c) ...this would include information on how to make illegal modifications to firearms, purchase illegal items...




I think someone missed the smiley face at the end of the sentance.

Have a great day!
mark



Thank you Mark. I did miss your smiley. It is now appreciated.

Arock
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 7:07:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By edpmedic:
Could you imagine that Lighting link with the new belt fed AR15 upper's. Also if it is that much for a LL and it doesn't last that long is it really worth it. I remember using M16's in full and Burst. It's fun but in reality Semi does just has good and it's cheaper.
If you want a sub gun I think H&K is a better bet if you were allowed to have one.



I wish.

Belt-Fed uppers (The MG34 currently out, and to the best of my knowledge, the Shrike not yet in production) will NOT function in full auto with a lightning link, due to the different location of the activation point. They will function with a military autosear or RDIAS, because both of these parts are functionally (if not structurally) identical and engage the "hook" of the M16 hammer, and are activated by the longer tail of the M16 bolt carrier, as opposed to the "paddle" of the LL, which is engaged about an inch farther back towards the buttstock by the tail end of the AR-15 bolt carrier.

Panz
Link Posted: 7/31/2002 7:26:31 PM EST
I'm not putting ANYTHING from a tincan in my AR .

Link Posted: 8/1/2002 4:17:21 AM EST
Thats what I love about this site..Live and learn something everyday. I saw a post for orders on the Shrike. I thought that it was out already.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:15:12 AM EST
The LL is a cool little toy. The thing that got me was. What if it breaks? Can you legally fix it yourself? Without breaking the law, by re/contructing a LL.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:30:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By gijohnny223:
Stay away from HOW.

If you want to keep posting here.

Arock




Yup kids, celebrate freedom, watch your mouth.
Link Posted: 8/1/2002 5:42:40 AM EST

What if it breaks? Can you legally fix it yourself? Without breaking the law, by re/contructing a LL.

Yes, they can be and are repaired. However, at $2500 or so and with transferrable full autos drying up, most people would rather have a C2 with experience in this sort of thing handle the repairs.
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