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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/20/2017 6:52:41 PM EDT
I just got tasked to try and get a grant to outfit my Depts SWAT team with nvgs. Has anybody else gone through this process that has any pointers? It would be for 18 sets, prob pvs14s.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 8:59:31 PM EDT
Are you sure blowing your whole wad on pvs-14's is wise? Why not some binocs, thermal, scopes and a mixture of nods? I think having multiple capabilities for each of the mission types you'd encounter would be better than just a generic solution. With SWAT lighting etc are provided by vehicles and indoors a pvs-14 isn't exactly the best solution. Just my 2 cents, not a subject matter expert by any means.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 9:44:20 PM EDT
For LEO stuff, it's worth personally calling Vic at TNVC or sending him a PM. Always the best starting point, whoever you buy from. He'll help you either way, on that topic, even if you don't buy from him.
Link Posted: 3/20/2017 10:32:46 PM EDT
I will try and give them a call again, it went to voicemail earlier but it was close to closing time for them. As far as the use of 14s goes, cost is a big deal and we already have a few sets of thermals. We would prob look at a something weapon mounted down the road.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 11:37:50 AM EDT
I couldn't find much in way of a grant about 6-7 years ago that wasn't already being used by us to use recording in squad cars ( been doing it since 2000). You best bet is raising money through local businesses but I wouldn't say it's solely for swat. If your guys will be using it for search and rescue, locating dementia people that walk off then that's how I would sell it. If you are just planning on restricting it for swat then that might be a hard sell. Also there was some available through Crane but it was more of a lease program. I think there might be some available through DMRO but your department must be in the program to get the gear.
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 11:50:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2017 11:56:04 AM EDT by TCBA_Joe]
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 1:07:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/21/2017 4:47:16 PM EDT
Clearing structures using NODs is generally a bad idea.
For weapons manipulation, you'll need to be able to do it blind, which should already be the goal.

PVS-14 is a great choice for general use. I'd get your sniper/sharpshooter/DM/that_guy a dedicated weapon optic, in addition to a PVS-14.

There has been a lease program available from DLA/LESO/1033 in the past, run from NSWC Crane, leasing older equipment for $300 per unit annually. I don't know if it's still in operation. I just sent an email asking. It used to be hosted at http://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/leso/Pages/NightVisionGoggles.aspx but they reorganized the whole site and now I cannot find it. The Navy would swap a unit out, if anything happened to it during the lease period.

Here's a copy of the old page: https://web.archive.org/web/20150326111402/http://www.dispositionservices.dla.mil/leso/Pages/NightVisionGoggles.aspx

The only other LESO/1033 opportunity I'm aware of would be the RTD program. I've been looking on there for a couple years and have yet to see anything in good condition as far as NV/thermal. Some of it gets demilled before it reaches a DRMO. You'd probably have to get lucky and/or rebuild and cannibalize to get anything decent from there, and of course the paperwork is no fun. In my state we pay 10% of DoD acquisition cost, so it's important to determine the condition of the gear, which is often the hardest part. I'm not located near any of the DLA sites the cool gear seems to pass through. (I did manage to score big at Anniston on CQBR uppers though.)

Wilcox has a good NSN reference list which can be used for RTD searches. You may configure a want list to send you email alerts as well.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 10:05:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2017 10:05:34 AM EDT by TNVC_Sam]
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 12:02:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2017 12:19:45 PM EDT by KitBuilder]
Debbie Owens (debbie.owens.ctr@navy.mil) replied with a 2017 flyer for the Electro-Optics Loan Program. It's still $300 per unit per year.
The oldest gear they lease now is the PVS-7C. She stated they had a sudden increase in enrollment, which has left some equipment limited at this time. There is a waiting list for the PVS-21's, 22's, 26's, andX100XP's. All of the  SU-232/PAS units have been shipped and are not currently available.

Link Posted: 3/22/2017 12:15:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
Please remember people who actually kill people for a living utilize NODs to clear structures every night of the year in ultra hostile non permissive environments.
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Yeah, and I've spoken with (and trained with) some of those people, and to a man they preferred white lights while clearing structures.
Every piece of equipment has its place, and there certainly are scenarios where white lights are inferior, but not for most stateside LE work inside homes. Different missions and all that.
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 12:34:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 3:06:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
Believe it or not, there is a paradigm change happening slowly amongst some in the LEO community, more and more agencys are adopting this tech, learning to use its benefits and implement TTP's that allow the use of NV in new roles. CQB being one of them. While I advocate a white light on nearly every gun these days it does not mean you always have to or must go white light everytime.

You'll find lots of SOF types advocating the use of NODs as well. It takes time and training but is incredibly effective when the element of surprise is still had, DEVGRU got the most wanted man on the globe with I2 technology in a CQB scenario and several highly trained Federal Agencys have the same capability. it will all filter down to lower levels but it will take time for it to be embraced. Never say never because when we stop adapting we stop being effective.
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I don't think that anyone is advocating that anyone stop adapting, or stop trying to utilize I2 technology to the best of its capabilities. However, you're talking about ultra-specialized units conducting specialized missions under specialized conditions with specialized equipment. Not even those guys go riding around in Stealthhawks every day or for every mission.

The OP was asking about getting a small (in relative terms, of course) grant for less than 20 PVS-14s--chances are, grabbing panos off the shelf to do a secret raid against a high value target really isn't in the cards, and chances are, their level of training and support is not going to get them there, either--and most importantly, while we'd all love to have access to that kind of equipment and training, if not, perhaps, the level of danger and risk involved in the actual operations, chances are their "mission set" does not call for it. I'm making inferences here based on the OP's post and user info--but I don't think the possible combination of active shooters, bank robbers, meth labs, and high risk warrants in Missouri are quite on the same level as killing Osama bin Laden on the soil of another sovereign nation.

As has been discussed in several of these threads, while specialized situations call for specialized adaptations--because of the well known limitations of common I2 technologies, under many, I daresay--most, circumstances, using I2 for infil and maneuver, but transitioning to white light when things "go dynamic" is much more effective--use the I2 to achieve the element of surprise, but once you have the initiative--"speed and violence of action" is what will carry the day and make things safer for everyone involved. One of the places this has been discussed is in the "SOCOM NODs" thread that's been going on--the use of NV in CQB is not a "new" role, though obviously TTPs continue to evolve.

It has nothing to do with an unwillingness to embrace the technology and its capabilities or a failure to adapt, different people and organizations possess different levels of capabilities, mission, and equipment--there's no point in bagging on a local SWAT team that has to beg for money for a couple PVS-14s, or even a conventional infantry unit, or even a regular "line" ODA for not being DEVGRU or HRT and not playing at that level.

I would be the last person in the world to downplay the tremendous asset the I2 and other VAS technologies can be, especially for personnel involved in high-risk, armed professions, but there needs to be a sense of proportionality as well. While you're not wrong that white light doesn't have to be used every single time for every scenario--that's where the training piece takes over, knowing when NV continues to be an advantage, and being able to recognize when it is not.

Link Posted: 3/22/2017 3:33:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2017 8:40:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2017 8:41:34 PM EDT by leo84]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By eblack:
I will try and give them a call again, it went to voicemail earlier but it was close to closing time for them. As far as the use of 14s goes, cost is a big deal and we already have a few sets of thermals. We would prob look at a something weapon mounted down the road.
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Are you getting / budgeting for MFAL (lasers) as well.... thats a must have.

Don't forget mounts, helmet shrouds, etc.
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