I have been looking around for new rifles and pistols and I seem to have almost one of each of the common C&R weapons (mosin nagant, K98, K-31, etc.) on the surplus market. Does anyone know what the next surplus C&R weapons will be?
There will never be anymore rifle C&R guns. This is because most countries adopted select fire weapons which can not be imported without being demilled first. Handguns are another story.
That sucks ...well I suppose I will start doubling up my collection then.
That's the first I've heard of that.
They're not disappearing, most of them are just temporarily vanishing into corners of gun safes. Eventually everything will reappear on the market on gunbroker and in estate sales. Such is the circle of life.
Think about it for a moment. Most bolt action or true semi auto battle rifles have already been sold as surplus. What does that leave? AK47's, FN FAL's, M-16's etc... Remember that ATF says once a machine gun always a machine gun. Name me a country that used a non select fire weapon in the last 20 years? This is why I say that there won't be many more to get.
The most popular firearms in the US are based on military designs. That interest won't go away with the decline of low cost imported surplus.
What will happen is more domestic companies will tool up to produce semi-auto clones of the popular full-autos, like the semi MP-44 that's coming to market. They won't be cheap, but someone will buy them.
On the plus side though, lots of pistols are going to be going C&R over the next 10 years!
Yeah, we'll actually see more surp. pistols in the "standard" 9mm.
IIRC, everal times we have heard strong rumors ofa big batch of SVT40's in the Soviet Union (er, CIS) that is just waiting for the prices to work themselves out. Currently the sellers are asking too much, but eventually the selling price and the retail price will com e into line...
Other than that, I suspexct we will see M31/90s for quite a few years to come, and small batches of rifles we have already seen reappear, but beyond that I think handguns are going to be the C&R's of the future.
Talk to me about this semi MP-44. Who is making / importing it. links?
It's Interordnance and they'll be $5,000 USD.
The ad is in the latest issue of Shotgun News.
I just don't understand why everyone thinks that firearms are automatically C&R due to age. Why should the ATF just arbitrarily make the............Steyr GB, for example, a C&R?
Uh, because they are. Do your own research.
Are you serious?
Because they are; the ATF doesn't have to do anything. Any gun 50 years or older is automatically a C&R gun without any action by the ATF to designate it as such.
FROM THE ATF WEB SITE Q&A on C&R guns:
What is a firearm curio or relic?
Firearm curios or relics include firearms which have special value to collectors because they possess some qualities not ordinarily associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
1.) Have been manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; or
2.) Be certified by the curator of a municipal, state or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; or
3.) Derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or from the fact of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.
Only definitions 2 & 3 require the ATF to designate the gun as C&R by adding it the list.
So how much longer do I have to get my C & R and scoop up a k31 before they're all gone?
FGS said they have a year's supply left. (of k31's). Samco, Classic arms, SOG all have them.
Okay, I understand.
Maybe I should have explicitly stated what I was thinking at the time: What is to keep a Democratically controlled Justice Dept from arbitrarily saying that there will be no more C&R handguns as they don't have to go through "licensed" dealers.
I appreciate that you took the time to answer my question.
Being more explicit, not everything 50 years old is automatically a C&R though is it? As the website mentions with NFA weapons and also with "non importable" weapons such as a Chinese SKS.
yes and since you have previously implied that I was an "idiot" and "stupid" in another post, then I will forego your opinion
Although #1 is true by definition in the C&R information given out by the ATF, I have found plenty of people who will not sell a firearm as a C&R unless it is on the ATF list. A lot of guys just aren't willing to risk it being ATF's reputation for 'creative interpretation' of their own 'rulings.'
I'd kind of like to know what happened to the 300,000 Winchester 1895s that were sold to Russia.
If you've got the $$$ to spend and are a C&R holder, you can have it shipped to your door.
You cannot import something on the restricted list, like a Chinese SKS that is overseas, but you can use it to purchase one already imported.
Ok, I had an imperfect understanding about NFA weapons. I didn't realize that you could buy some of them with C&R (plus, I assume, the stamp).
Good point about being able to transfer a Chinese SKS that was already imported. I didn't think about that either.
ME TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'd love to get my hands on one, they can't have used them much after the war. They are either sitting in an undisclosed Russian arsenal, or were all taken by party officials.
A Military configured lever action rifle with full length stock and stripper clip guides. I saw one at a gun show once, but didn't want to sell my house to afford the price.
Seeing as how Winchester has recently made several different 1895 repro's, maybe they would consider a limited run of the Russian model in 7.62X54R????
Unfortunately, C&R does not = importable; therein lies the rub.
What is restricted from being imported has little to nothing do with what is legal to manufacture, own, or transfer in the US, except that if it was made outside the US, it had to be legally imported (legal to import at the time it was imported) in order to posses it (or contain enough domestic parts to be considered US made).
What about all the military’s bolt action snipers rifles? Like what will happen to the M-24 if the army replaces them all together with the M110??? Will the go to CMP? On the Surplus market? Or (God forbid) be destroyed?
I believe under the Clinton Administration, he signed into effect that mil-surplus doesn't exist anymore. Firearms, I believe are destroyed completely per ATF cuts, then sent to a recycler. I know cause I had to torch a few M16 barrels, uppers, and lowers.
I am a little lost on this chinese sks thing. Either they are are or are not a C&R. I have never seen a chinese sks for sale in the C&R section, but always in the ak47 board. Why is this?
I have heard that there are an ass load of K43/G43 capture rifles held in Russia and Ukraine, but the prices are too high for the importers. Maybe someday.
EArly in WWI, Russia was losing one quarter million small arms per month. Most of the Winchesters were lost then. In the late 1930s, Stalin sold many of the left overs to the Commie Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.
In short, few are left. Those in Russia are unavailable to us. They have also be heavily reworked. The Russians wanted an arm and a leg for them, and this was before the dollar weakened.
The Russian and Soviet arms we are getting now are coming from countries other than Russia.
Sadly, I don't think there is any way we will see the 1895s in this life.
There's quite a few SVT-40's still in Europe. The pricing isn't the issue keeping them from being imported. Sadly, they are NOT legally importable because of an Executive Trade Agreement that Bill Clinton signed with the Russian Federation. The long and short of it is that the US agreed not to import any firearms from Russia, produced in Russia, or produced in the former Soviet Union *unless* it was enumerated on a list of "importable" firearms listed in the agreement. Thus, even if the cache of SVT-40's were in say, England, they could not be imported because they originated in the former Soviet Union.
This was enforced a few years back when Aztec Arms in Florida tried to import a batch of SVT's and were told in no uncertain terms by the BATF that the firearms could not be imported to the US. Those who have tried to buy and import an SVT from Marstar in Canada have run into the same probem.
Here's the text of that import agreement-
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
27 CFR Part 47
[Notice No. 821]
Removal of Certain Restrictions on Importation of Defense
Articles and Defense Services From the Russian Federation
AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Department of
ACTION: Statement of policy.
SUMMARY: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is
announcing (1) that it will remove the Russian Federation from the list
of countries from which defense articles and defense services may not
be imported and (2) implementation of restrictions on the importation
of certain firearms and ammunition located or manufactured in the
Russian Federation or previously manufactured in the Soviet Union in
accordance with an agreement between the United States and the Russian
Federation and the guidance of the Secretary of State regarding matters
affecting world peace and the external security and foreign policy of
the United States as expressed in a letter dated April 5, 1996.
DATES: Removal of the Russian Federation from the list of proscribed
countries was effective April 5, 1996.
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Mary Jo Hughes, Chief, Firearms and
Explosives Imports Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, 650
Massachusetts Avenue, NW., Washington, DC 20226 (202-927-8320).
SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION: By letter dated April 5, 1996, the Secretary
of State advised the Director, ATF, that, under the authority of
Section 38 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA), 22 U.S.C. Sec. 2778,
it is no longer the policy of the United States to deny licenses, other
approvals, exports and imports of defense articles and defense services
destined for or originating in the Russian Federation (Russia). The
State Department has requested that the Director implement this
decision immediately with respect to his authority over imports under
Section 38 of the AECA and amend the regulation at 27 CFR 47.52(a) to
reflect this change in foreign policy.
The State Department also advised that the President decided to
negotiate an agreement with Russia concerning the export of munitions.
Carrying out such an agreement and keeping out unacceptable types of
munitions from the United States are U.S. foreign policy concerns. In
addition, the State Department informed ATF that an Agreement between
the Government of the United States of America and the Government of
the Russian Federation on exports of firearms and ammunition from the
Russian Federation to the United States of America (the Agreement) was
signed on April 3, 1996, and entered into force on that date. On this
basis, the State Department advised the Department of the Treasury that
Treasury should exercise the authority delegated to it under Section 38
of the AECA by denying applications to import firearms and ammunition
located or manufactured in Russia or previously manufactured in the
Soviet Union that would be inconsistent with the Agreement. The State
Department advised Treasury that the foregoing did not apply to
conditional imports of firearms and ammunition which would serve as
samples for purposes of determining whether the items are of a type
authorized for importation under the Agreement.
The Agreement provides that Russia shall not allow the exportation
to the United States of (1) firearms other than those specified on
Annex A to the Agreement; and (2) ammunition specified in Annex B to
the Agreement. Nine handguns and 29 rifles are listed in Annex A. One
type of ammunition is listed in Annex B. The Agreement also provides
that new types of firearms and ammunition manufactured after February
9, 1996, may not be exported by Russia under the Agreement unless the
parties agree in writing to amend the Agreement accordingly. The
Agreement is published in its entirety at the end of this notice.
ATF has taken or will take the following actions to implement the
(1) ATF will remove Russia from the list of countries from which
defense articles and defense services may not be imported into the
United States. A Treasury Decision amending Sec. 47.52(a) to reflect
this action will be published in the near future.
(2) ATF will approve applications to import defense articles and
defense services from Russia in accordance with the guidance contained
in the April 5, 1996, letter from the Department of State. Consistent
with that letter, only firearms listed in Annex A of the Agreement will
be approved for importation from Russia. Surplus military curio or
relic firearms manufactured or located in Russia or previously
manufactured in the Soviet Union will not be approved for importation
under 27 CFR 47.52(d) unless the firearms are listed in Annex A of the
Agreement. Applications to import from Russia ammunition listed in
Annex B will not be approved.
(3) ATF will not approve applications to import from any country or
territory firearms and ammunition manufactured in Russia or previously
manufactured in the Soviet Union that would be inconsistent with the
(4) Firearms that are subject to the AECA and the Agreement include
any nonautomatic, semiautomatic, or automatic firearm to caliber .50
(12.7mm) inclusive, other than a sporting shotgun, and any component or
part for such firearms.
(5) Prior to approval of an application to import firearms and
ammunition located or manufactured in Russia or previously manufactured
in the Soviet Union, ATF may require the conditional importation of a
sample of the firearm or ammunition for examination to determine
whether it is of a type that may be approved for importation consistent
with the Agreement.
(6) For purposes of the AECA, the term ``United States'' is defined
in 27 CFR 47.11 and includes Customs bonded warehouses (CBWs) and
foreign trade zones (FTZs). Article 8 of the Agreement provides that
the Agreement shall not affect the fulfillment of contracts with
respect to firearms or ammunition entered or withdrawn from warehouse
for consumption in the United States on or before February 9, 1996.
This means that firearms and ammunition entered into a CBW or FTZ prior
to February 9, 1996, that otherwise could not be imported under the
restrictions set out above have been imported within the meaning of
Section 38 of the AECA and are not subject to such restrictions.
(7) Permits authorizing the importation of firearms and ammunition
whose exportation to the United States is prohibited under the
Agreement, with the exception of those to which paragraph (6) are
applicable, are hereby revoked. As required by 27 CFR 47.44(d), the
revoked import permits must be returned to the Firearms and Explosives
Imports Branch, ATF, immediately. Pursuant to 27 CFR 47.44(c), holders
of such permits may, within 30 days of the date of publication of this
notice in the Federal Register, make a written request for an
opportunity to present additional information and to have a full review
by the Director. Any such requests will be referred to the Department
of State, as appropriate, for its guidance on matters affecting world
peace and the external security and foreign policy of the United
Compliance With 5 U.S.C. Chapter 8
In accordance with 5 U.S.C. 808(2), ATF has found that, consistent
with guidance from the Department of State and for reasons of the
foreign policy of the United States, notice and public procedure under
5 U.S.C. 801 are unnecessary, impracticable, and contrary to the public
Text of Agreement; Agreement Between the Government of the United
States of America and the Government of the Russian Federation on
Exports of Firearms and Ammunition From the Russian Federation to the
United States of America
The Government of the United States of America and the
Government of the Russian Federation, hereinafter referred to as the
In the context of removing a number of existing restrictions on
the importation into the United States of firearms and ammunition
from the Russian Federation;
Recognizing the foreign policy interest of the Parties in
expanding trade in firearms and ammunition between the United States
and the Russian Federation in a manner compatible with domestic
Recognizing the intention of the United States of America that
United States policy with respect to access to the United States
market for firearms and ammunition be applied in a nondiscriminatory
manner to all of its trading partners;
Wishing to promote trade and cooperation on an equal and
mutually beneficial basis between the United States and the Russian
Federation and to expand economic opportunities in the two
Have agreed as follows:
Article 1: Definitions
The following definitions apply to this Agreement:
(a) ``Ammunition'' means any ammunition, cartridge case, primer,
bullet, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
(b) ``Firearm'' means any nonautomatic, semiautomatic, or
automatic firearm, to caliber .50 (12.7 mm) inclusive other than a
shotgun, or any component or part for such firearm.
(c) ``New model ammunition'' means a type of ammunition the
manufacture of which began after February 9, 1996.
(d) ``New model firearm'' means a type of firearm the
manufacture of which began after February 9, 1996.
Article 2: Firearms and Ammunition Export Prohibitions
The Government of the Russian Federation shall not allow the
exportation from the Russian Federation, destined to the United
States, of the following firearms and ammunition:
(a) any firearm, including any new model firearm, except a
firearm described in Annex A to this Agreement;
(b) ammunition described in Annex B to this Agreement; and
(c) new model ammunition.
Article 3: Consultations
(a) Each Party shall provide to the other Party, on request,
information necessary for the implementation and enforcement of this
Agreement. A Party shall keep confidential all information received
from the other Party that is designated by the providing Party as
confidential and shall not provide it to any other government or any
private person without the providing Party's written consent.
(b) The Parties agree to consult promptly, not later than 30
days after receipt of a request from either Party, regarding any
matter concerning this Agreement.
(c) At any time, either Party may propose that a firearm be
added to or deleted from Annex A or that ammunition be added to or
deleted from Annex B. The Parties shall consult promptly regarding
such a proposal and may amend either Annex by written agreement of
(d) Where a question arises as to whether a particular firearm
or ammunition is subject to the export prohibition in Article 2, the
Parties shall consult promptly. The firearm or ammunition shall be
subject to the export prohibition pending resolution of the matter.
Article 4: Construction
Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to affect the
applicability to firearms, ammunition, or other products of the laws
and regulations of the United States or the Russian Federation
imposing restrictions or requirements on importation.
Article 5: Actions To Ensure the Effectiveness of this Agreement
Either Party may take any action, as provided in its laws and
regulations, necessary to ensure the effectiveness of this
Article 6: Emergency Actions
If the Government of the United States determines that the
actual or prospective importation of any firearm described in Annex
A or ammunition other than that described in Annex B is causing or
threatens to cause damage to the domestic security of the United
States, the Government of the United States reserves the right to
take any measure it deems appropriate consistent with the Agreement
on Trade Relations, signed between the Union of Soviet Socialist
Republics and the United States of America at Washington on June 1,
1990, as amended, brought into force between the United States of
America and the Russian Federation pursuant to an exchange of notes
on June 17, 1992. The Government of the United States shall consult
with the Government of the
[[Page 1868 ]
Russian Federation prior to taking any such measure. If prior and
prompt consultations are not possible because of an emergency
situation, the Government of the United States shall consult with
the Government of the Russian Federation as soon as possible after
taking the measure.
Article 7: Amendments
This Agreement may be amended by written agreement of the
Article 8: No Effect on Articles in U.S. Customs Territory
This Agreement shall not affect the fulfillment of contracts
with respect to firearms or ammunition entered or withdrawn from
warehouse for consumption in the United States on or before February
Article 9: Annexes; Entry into Force; Termination
(a) The Annexes to this Agreement are an integral part of this
(b) This Agreement shall enter into force upon the date of its
signature by both Parties.
(c) Either Party may terminate this Agreement by providing
written notification to the other Party at least twelve months prior
to the date of termination.
Done at Washington on April 3, 1996, in duplicate, in the
English and Russian languages, both texts being equally authentic.
Ambassador, Senior Counsel, Negotiator, Office of the U.S. Trade
For the Government of the United States of America.
Deputy Chairman, State Committee on Defense Industry Branches.
For the Government of the Russian Federation.
Firearms Permitted to Be Imported into the United States from the
1. German Model P08 Pistol
2. IZH 34M, .22 caliber Target Pistol
3. IZH 35M, .22 caliber Target Pistol
4. Mauser Model 1896 Pistol
5. MC-57-1 Pistol
6. MC-1-5 Pistol
7. Polish Vis Model 35 Pistol
8. Soviet Nagant Revolver
9. TOZ 35, .22 caliber Target Pistol
1. BARS-4 Bolt Action Carbine
2. Biathlon Target Rifle, .22LR caliber
3. British Enfield Rifle
4. CM2, .22 caliber Target Rifle (also known as SM2,
5. German Model 98K Rifle
6. German Model G41 Rifle
7. German Model G43 Rifle
9. LOS-7 Bolt Action Rifle
20. Saiga Rifle
21. Soviet Model 38 Carbine
22. Soviet Model 44 Carbine
23. Soviet Model 91/30 Rifle
24. TOZ 18, .22 caliber Bolt Action Rifle
25. TOZ 55
26. TOZ 78
27. Ural Target Rifle, .22LR caliber
28. VEPR Rifle
29. Winchester Model 1895, Russian Model Rifle
Ammunition Prohibited from Being Imported into the United States
from the Russian Federation
1. 7.62X25mm caliber (also known as 7.63X25mm caliber or .30
Authority and Issuance
This notice is issued under the authority in 22 U.S.C. 2778.
Approved: April 19, 1996.
John W. Magaw,
[FR Doc. 96-10361 Filed 4-24-96; 4:32 pm]
BILLING CODE 4810-31-U
Now it should be noted that the following interesting things arise from this list:
1. 1895 Winchesters can be imported. Acording to my contacts at Empire Arms and InterOrdnace, they are there, but the Russians want an arm and a leg for them.
2. G43/K43's can be imported. They too are there according to my sources, but when importation was last explored 2002 or so, the Russians wanted to sell them in lots of 1000 rifles each, no selection or quality guarantees, and they wanted $800 each for the rifles. $800,000 is a big chunk of change to importers who usually buy surplus guns by the pound, and also have no guarantees that siad rifles are functional. By the time they were shipped, inspected, and marketed, the cost to the consumer would be ~$1500 or so. An RC that had been reblued, mismatched, and possibly in need of new parts or servicing was thought to be a tough sell back then. Perhaps as G43 prices soar, they'll be brought over, but as Dennis Kroh said "The Russians read the internet and Shotgun News too..."
3. There have been some guns imported that aren't on that list, but do come from the former Soviet Union, namely Mosin Nagant rifles, especially the 91 long rifle. Perhaps the BATF isn't drawing a distinction between the 91/30 and the 91, but it does give hope to those who wish to see SVT's and other guns brought over.
Anyway, thought that may help clear some things up...
Thanks there is alot of info here
I think we will see more enfields from India, perhaps better more German police pistols like H&Ks come in.
Just because something qualifies as "C&R" that doesn't remove any other restrictions on the weapon. A 1945 Thomson may be a C&R, but it also falls under NFA regs. Pay the price of the weapon, pay the tax and you can have it delivered to your door like any other C&R.
I see, thanks