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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/27/2002 12:46:58 PM EDT
Okay, "My Friend" owns no Pre-ban AR's, but "She" owns 1 Post-ban. "My Friend" also has in "Her" posession a Pre-Ban collapsible butt-stock. Does this constitute a felony charge under the laws imposed upon us by the BATF? Should "My Friend" get rid of the Collapsable Stock yesterday do be completely within the guidlines? Or is everythying that "My Friend" is doing legal?

Thanks
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 12:48:58 PM EDT
As long as it is not attached, you are okay!
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:18:10 PM EDT
Anti-
I think you read the question wrong,

"She" is okay.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:25:03 PM EDT
Let me get this straight. Your "friend" has a post ban AR15 with a collapsible stock installed on it, "she" may even have a FH on it. I sthat correct? If so, your friend is illegal. But, who really is going to know/tell her??

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:28:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Let me get this straight. Your "friend" has a post ban AR15 with a collapsible stock installed on it, "she" may even have a FH on it. I sthat correct? If so, your friend is illegal. But, who really is going to know/tell her??

Sgtar15



No it's not attatched, I just started getting scared for "Her" when I was reading about the "Constructive Illegal thigy-whatever" post here... That's all.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:35:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2002 1:35:43 PM EDT by eswanson]
Is your friend hot? Please post pics.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:39:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2002 1:39:45 PM EDT by talbalos]
If she is at or above 'the age of legal consent' in your state, then yes, she is legal. It shouldn't matter if she has a collapsible stock as long as she's got all the other parts in the right places and doesn't smell too bad. There's always a paper bag if she don't look too good as well.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 1:44:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -UHLEK-:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Let me get this straight. Your "friend" has a post ban AR15 with a collapsible stock installed on it, "she" may even have a FH on it. I sthat correct? If so, your friend is illegal. But, who really is going to know/tell her??

Sgtar15



No it's not attatched, I just started getting scared for "Her" when I was reading about the "Constructive Illegal thigy-whatever" post here... That's all.



As far as I know, the only contructive illegal thingy whatever has to do with possession of an SBR upper with any kind of AR15. In their infinate wisdom courts have found it too easy to convert to the SBR from a normal AR15.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 4:28:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By talbalos:
If she is at or above 'the age of legal consent' in your state, then yes, she is legal. It shouldn't matter if she has a collapsible stock as long as she's got all the other parts in the right places and doesn't smell too bad. There's always a paper bag if she don't look too good as well.



rofl. Hey, im in washington too.

oz
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 4:38:17 PM EDT
Separated, the parts are totally within the law.
Together, it's grounds for a 'hot sticky buttstock'.
"Jane in Jail"...it's not a pretty story.
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 6:38:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 8:14:22 PM EDT
Troy,
Are you saying thats illegal to have a Pre Ban upper un attached if all you have are postban guns?

-Jared
Link Posted: 9/27/2002 10:17:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By PvtJoker:
Troy,
Are you saying thats illegal to have a Pre Ban upper un attached if all you have are postban guns?

-Jared

people have been known to get in trouble for it in the cases i know of thu they were SBR uppers and no registered LOWER either SBR or MG.
Link Posted: 9/28/2002 11:07:49 PM EDT
You can have M-16 parts all around your house as long as they are not part of the gun put together,you can have buttstocks of all kinds as long as they are not assembled!

You can have magazines that are modified to fit your gun as long as they still fit the gun they first were made for! If you have a Hakim with a MG-13 twenty five mag,who do you know that has a MG-13 Machine gun to test the mag in?

Just don't put yourself in a position where you have to prove your non guilt as the ATF will not help you one bit! With the ATF you are guilty until you prove otherwise!

Bob
Link Posted: 9/29/2002 11:10:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eswanson:
Is your friend hot? Please post pics.



That is funny.
Link Posted: 9/29/2002 11:22:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2002 11:24:27 AM EDT by K-9]
wrong, you can not have m16 parts if you only have a semi auto AR.
but you can have m16 parts if you don't own an Ar that the parts can fit into. Or do have a reg. machine gun
Link Posted: 9/30/2002 1:21:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/30/2002 7:02:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/30/2002 7:04:02 AM EDT by monkeyman]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By PvtJoker:
Troy,
Are you saying thats illegal to have a Pre Ban upper un attached if all you have are postban guns?

-Jared



Essentially, yes, as you could be prosecuted for constructive intent (which is bullshit, but true). By removing the barrel from the upper receiver, though, you'd be much better protected, as then you wouldn't be able to quickly and easily assemble the rifle in an illegal configuration, which is a big factor in "proving" (yeah, right!) constructive intent.

-Troy



I don't believe you are correct. Possession of a preban upper and post ban lower does not constitute constructive intent. There would have to have been an ATF or AG ruling on a specific case to be considered CI.

I suppose if one was stupid enough to go into business contructing ARs with post ban lowers and preban uppers one would be subject to arrest for CI. If one simply had a preban upper in anticipation of getting a preban lower, or had a preban upper with the "intent" of converting it to post ban specs, then I would think you would be pretty safe.
Link Posted: 9/30/2002 7:26:52 AM EDT
UHLEEK, you are right to be concerned about your friend.

IIRC the test for whether your friend is legal is whether there are legal uses for the parts she has. She is still in the clear if she has other uses that may be illegal. The court will not presume that she will be acting in an illegal way instead of a perfectly legal way (unless, of course, there is other evidence that she intends to act in an illegal way).

For example, if she has a pre-ban gun that she could put the collapsing stock on, she is fine. This is the case even if she has post-ban guns that could also take the stock. Likewise, she could be worried about breakage and have some spare collapsing stocks for her pre-ban. (Obviously if she has 1 pre-ban gun, 50 post-ban guns and 50 spare collapsing stocks, there will be a LOT of explaining to do.)

On the other hand, if the only use for the part is an illegal one, she is in big trouble.

For example, if she only has a post-ban gun and she has a collapsible stock that will fit that gun (but will not fit any of her other guns), she has a problem.

The leading case in this area is, IIRC, Thompson Centerfire.

Your friend, you, or some of the other people on this board, may or may not feel that this restriction is one of the stupidest pieces of legislation to come down the pike and that it does not achieve its stated goals of reducing crime.

THAT DOES NOT MATTER. It is still the law and if your friend violates it she will be in BIG trouble. Do not take the counsel of those who suggest "Who would know?" There are too many ways that the police could find out and the costs are too high. (For example, what if she has to use the rifle to shoot a person threatening her in her home? The cops will check her gun too. Then she loses the chance to ever own or even touch a gun and may get an all-expenses paid vacation in her local prison.)

Tell her to either get a pre-ban gun or ditch the collapsible stock NOW.

The foregoing should not be considered legal advice. Your friend should check with a lawyer (and get one ready to call if she continues to act in a potentially illegal manner).

Link Posted: 10/1/2002 8:23:41 AM EDT
THIS GU UNLEK OR WHATEVER
IS A LIAR IN ANOTHER POST
HE SAY HE IS A LEO
WHY WOULD HE THEN BE ASKING THIS BS
THAT EVEN I KNOW
CHECK THIS POST OUT
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=113575
WE HATE LIARS AROUND HERE BOY!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 8:27:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/1/2002 8:32:04 AM EDT by eswanson]

Originally Posted By canusatakdrivr:
THIS GU UNLEK OR WHATEVER
IS A LIAR IN ANOTHER POST
HE SAY HE IS A LEO
WHY WOULD HE THEN BE ASKING THIS BS
THAT EVEN I KNOW
CHECK THIS POST OUT
http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=74&t=113575
WE HATE LIARS AROUND HERE BOY!!!!!!!!



"We" also hate people who insist on posting in all caps, Boy.

Edited to add that, while I'm glad that "even you know" all there is to know about the technical legalities of the ATF and their interpretation of the laws, not everyone else does. Just because one is a cop does not mean one has a universal grasp of federal law and the ATF's interpretations of it. Boy.
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 8:50:43 AM EDT
Edited to add that, while I'm glad that "even you know" all there is to know about the technical legalities of the ATF and their interpretation of the laws, not everyone else does. Just because one is a cop does not mean one has a universal grasp of federal law and the ATF's interpretations of it. Boy.

WELL THEY SHOULD!!!!
PERIOD!!

Link Posted: 10/1/2002 9:07:00 AM EDT
Canus has a good point.

I have always heard, "ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law."

So, since a LEO would probably be arresting me for breaking the law, possibly due to my ignorance, shouldn't the LEO know the laws?
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 10:18:33 AM EDT
canusaytroll, is it then your opinion that every local and state cop should be familiar with federal laws that they will not be called on to enforce? Should cops from one state also be required to know the laws from all other states? Foreign countries?

I assume that you did know that the assault weapons ban is a Federal law that isn't enforced by state or local police, right? You're familiar with the concept of sovereign government and all that?
Link Posted: 10/1/2002 10:26:14 AM EDT
________________________________________________

"So, since a LEO would probably be arresting me for breaking the law, possibly due to my ignorance, shouldn't the LEO know the laws?"

________________________________________________

Since when does local law enforcement enforce federal law (or the BATF interpretations of it for that matter)? We don't have the authority to arrest anyone on a federal charge. the feds jealously guard this as their privilege.

get real, and stop bashing cops.
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 5:26:09 AM EDT
OK, there you go again...gigging me for my ignorance.

That was not meant as a cop bashing comment. I have family and friends in LE.

So how would you get busted if you took a post-ban AR with a collapsable stock to the range?
Link Posted: 10/2/2002 9:54:43 PM EDT
Well, let's see. Up here in the NYC area, there are still checks on the bridges etc. from time to time. City cop looks in your trunk and wants to know more about the AR you are legally transporting from Long Island to Rockland Co. He decides to call the feds because "no civilian needs an assault weapon like that" and you're mouthing off about how he's infringing on your Constitutional rights.

Or one of the guns at your Gunsite class is FBI. Nice guy. Takes a look at your Knight SR15 with the Rock River collapsible stock. Thinks "post-ban rifle, collapsible stock, not LEO". Humm.

Or you have a bad divorce/breakup. Your spouse/SO didn't pay that much attention to all your gun ramblings but did remember you laughing about not paying attention to any stinking unconstitutional laws.

Or you're at the range happily blasting away. You're also annoying a couple of the bench rest types (you know, the ones who think 1 round every 5 minutes is rapid fire). They decide they don't like you, your kind, your loud and obnoxious rifle, or your idea of rapid fire.

So, M193 in the space of about 2 minutes, I was able to type up 4 ways that you could get busted with a collapsible stock on a post ban rifle. There are lots of other ways. True, they're low percentage shots but there's a lot of them. Anyway, do you want to lose your guns and have a wonderful 10-15 romance with Bubba?

Comply with the law. Spend the extra bucks to buy a pre-ban if the collapsible stock is that important. Work to make sure the AWB is not renewed. But don't rely on the "they will not notice me" defense.
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