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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 8/5/2002 8:56:00 AM EST
Now I see why the AR15 type raised sights are so great but then again the stock is quite high up at the level of the uppe rreceiver so from there to the sights has to be a bit more than say an AK receiver to the sights. I have wondered how badly oen would hav eto lean down to the sights with an AR180B. Then I noticed that the stock is lower than the top of the receiver so there is a bit of space adn then the aperatures themselves ride about 1/2 inch or so above the receiver. Making an AR15 with low sights would be painful, imagine the crink in your neck after 15 minutes! On Isayeret.com I looked at pics of Isreali SF guys fiting their CAR15's with standard carry loop sights. Look pretty painless, they put their heads down less than the guys with the Galil's who use the standard sights. But if they use and ARMS #2 to mount an ACOG they need a cheek plate to help suppor tehir heads next to the rifle when looking through the SCOG. IT is quite high up that way. But their heads are almost straight up that way, just their necks are tilted a little to the side. I wnder if tha tis better in terms of ergonomics than using just the normal iron sights. Those guys tilted not only the heads but also had to put their heads lower. At least not as low as the Galil guys. But I would prefer to use a flat top with folding fron and rear sight snad QD ACOG adapter if I were to use an ACOG or an Aimpoint. BTW: Who makes QD 1913 Picatinny rails which cna be mount on the flattop's picatinny an thereby just having a simple QD thingy. THis would be nice for the Aimpoint ogf the EoTech 552. THen you would only have to pop up the rear and rfront sghts and yyo woudl be in business.

How much better are red dot sights than using the iron sights? How much is the standard A2 front sight in the way if yo use a normal M4orgery flattop? Doe sit mess with the sigth picture? I heard that the front sight cannot be seen if the scope is more than 4x.

Rambling,

Doggoniy
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 9:29:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 11:27:05 AM EST by Doggonit]
Here some pics to illustrate the above said:

See the AR180B has a lower stock therefore enabling good sight access/ergonomics despite the low sights.

This is a plain M16, look at how high the stock is. That is why the sights are on top of the carry handle/in it because the cheek weld/sight access would be impossible without raised sights.

See how good the sight access/ergonomics are with the raised iron sights (meaning on top of/in the carry handle instead of just on top of the receiver like the AR180B sights) of the CAR15 shown here and with all other AR15 style rifles that use the standard iron sights.

See this is how I would hold a rifle if it had no forward grip, by gripping the mag. Better support that holding it by the handguard IMHO. Allows for elbow support I bet unlike the hangiung elbow when shooting by holding the handguard up front with the weak hand (in my case, being right handed the weak is the left).

Look at how high the sight is if it is mounted on top of the carry handle/rear sight, you really need that cheek plate to hold your head up comfortably and have a good cheek weld.

See how normal the rifle and sight access is with the flat top M4A1 mounted ACOG. It might even be a bit too high for this guy. I hope that 4x and higher scopes really dont show the front sight in the sight picture though because that would be the end of me as in death. See this pic for a better cheek weld than the above guy, I guess the collapsible stock isn't as good in terms of cheek fit and comfort as the normal M16 stock. Better cheek weld but this hguy has hid gun over his shoulder!!! Almost at least, painful stock stab in the top of the shoulder when he fires! If he would raise it just a little more the stock might even fly over his shoulder when the gun recoils! I dont care if the neck crinking is painful, press the gun to your shoulder! It isn't a .22 after all.

I think if you use optics go for a flattop, the carry handle mount and the cheek plate pushes your head up higher for the weapon so your head stand up further from the gun therby making you a better target for the enemy especially when shooting from prone, from barricades, from window sills, from the hood of cars, etc.

I wonder if the carry handle sights on the AR's are a lot better in terms of access and comfort than say a G3, a AK47, a Galil, an M14, a Garand, a FAL, etc. I will post comparative pics of these guns too. See how much better sight ergonomics/access/comfort is with the AR than these others.

Doggonit
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 10:55:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/5/2002 11:03:39 AM EST by Doggonit]
Ok here go the comparative pics in terms of stock/sight comfort and sight access both iron sights and mounted optics: Lots of different guns...

GREAT AK pic!!! Shows that the scope is too high, operator has to raise his head form a good cheek weld to a loose "jaw" weld. If he would use the iron sights, and the picture shows the stock well and the man's head too, the cheek weld would be comfortable. I guess AK's have great iron sight access but if you use mounted optics get a cheek plate or something, raise the stock somehow. Nioce M203 on the AK by the way.


Just two SVD pics to show the good sigth access/cheek wled/ etc. using the regular sights of the SVD WITH the raised cheek plate! IF you were to use the prototype SVD without the plate, the cheek weld would be weak using the scope, almost a "jaw" weld like the Isreali guy above. But using the iron sights with the SVD sight access would be not as good and less comfortable.

The FAMAS, due to the high stock in comparison with the receiver uses sigths mounted in the carry handle to place the sights higher like the AR15. Just dont try to use a scope.

The G3's sights are high enough and the stock is curved downwards so sight access is good with a good cheek weld. Using scopes: The cheek weld is probably almost as good as using the iron sights even if the cheek plate were to be removed. All Gxx (G3, G33, G41, G53, G36 which is a bit different yet it too uses either type of sight well, etc.) series and the MP5 series are like this: very nice.

FN FAL looks like sight access and comfort is exceelent but if you were to mount a scope you better put a cheek plate on it or it will be hard for you.

The FNC on the other hand looks painful. The iron sights seem a bit too low, I think lower than the AR180B which is just high enough, for comfort yet mounting a scope would put it too high up. Maybe I am wrong and the sigth sare just high enough as with the AR180B.

Just a little silenced 10/22 with a scope. See the home made cheek plate thingy? That is needed to make the cheek weld for comfortable. I guess the scope is too high or him.

Now for the venerable M82. Cheek weld is good, but there are no iron sights so it doesn't matter.

What a great pic!! What's a foursome trifecta called? quafecta? M24 cheek weld looks ok i most pics. Some Israeli troops raise it a little though by putting rags on it. THis guy likes it normal: This guy wants it raised but using the ammo carrier doesn't quite work:

Bofors AK 5 regualr and scoped. Scoped is too high so it needs a higher cheek plate. Regular seems a bit low like the FNC but lets hope it is like the AR180B: just high enough to cut it.

SIG 55x series: 552 regular looking good, comfy cheek weld and good iron sight access. Scope on 550 is high and that's why there butt stock has a raised cheek plate on it. Can't transition from scope to iron sights well though because iron sigth access with this plate is restricted.

AR18 scope a tad high up.

Bushy M17: put a scope on this and it will be too high, otherwise iron sights suck.

Harty har har! Not much of achoice with this POS heavy clunker! Murphy is rolling in his grave! Look at all the junk!

M1A iron sight access and comfort looking good. Now If you put a scope on it:

If you put a scope on it be prepared to get this nifty stock with the adjustable cheek piece. Helps a lot.

Ouch! Imagine the pain after holding this up to your eyes for an hour or so. Low sights.


Nice, but can't change sights that fast if the reflex breaks down.

Ouches! A bit low perhaps?


Give it to me! Regular double sights, plain ral, or put an Aimpoint ML2 on the rail! I looooove it! Ok ok, perhpas the red ot on the regular twin optics set is a bit high up for comfort. And perhaps the same is true if I put an Aimpoint on the rail. Maybe the iron sights on the rail are too low. Export model of G36 with only an 1.5x scope instead of 3x and red dot on top of that:

Gotta love it, better comfort factor with the flat stock top than the "new" style collapsible stock which seems a bit rough on top. But this probably jams every 5th round!

I guess the AR15 family rules compared to all these other guns I listed here. Transition form the scope to the iron sight sis hard on all of them excpt if you use a flat top AR15 with a folding rear sight and preferably folding front sigth too and a scope or soem red dot sight on a QD mount as to enable reasonable fast transition form the scope to the iron sights with same cheek weld and comfort factor for both setups. You are unlikely to switch unless your scope is broken so the 5 secs. it takes to switch is negligible. And it is still more comfortable tan going from the scope on the SIG 550 to the iron isght swith tha tbutt stock cheek plate in the way or doing th esame with many of the other rifles. Even the G3 SG1, because if yu remove the plate using the scope will be harder, if you us ethe plat eusing the iron sigths will be uncomfortable and the scope mount is probably blocking the iron sights anyway. So the AR rules in this department!







Put a rear and front folding sights on this with tritium filled aperature and front sight. Then get the QD mount for the Aimpoint and mount that. Great gun!
Link Posted: 8/5/2002 12:02:45 PM EST
If I my life ever HTF, I will become an Isreali sodlier like the guy in my signature pic.
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