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Posted: 6/10/2009 9:25:47 AM EST
I like to shoot brass when I shoot .223 or 5.56 because reloading is very practical. I am not currently reloading but building up my brass reserves. There are times when I like to shoot steel cased ammo, when Im broke or just want to send a hell of a lot down range I mix brass and steel. I have read that some people say that their MSARs did well with steel after a couple hundred rounds. What is the consensus? What do you guys from MSAR think about putting steel through them? I have not shot an MSAR and I am curious to know what it does to the ejected casings. Does it make a neat little pile like the AR's? No matter how cheap brass cased 7.62 x 39 gets I will never reload it because they send casings waaaayyyy off. So what type of ejection pattern do the MSAR's have?

Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 9:33:09 AM EST
Some people say that their STG doesn't run very well with steel cased ammo. A member here has put his STGs through a carbine course with steel cased ammo, so your mileage may vary. I've put about 250 steel cased rounds through a "Gen 2" STG with no issues whatsoever and never had to adjust the gas setting. The empty cases should be in a relatively neat pile about 5-6 feet behind you and to the right.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 9:41:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 9:41:17 AM EST by SilentType]
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=269&t=156911&page=3

You can find Tomac's range report at the link above. If the link doesn't work it is in the Industry Section under the MSAR forum at AR15.com.

I avoid steel cased ammo for all my firearms.


Link Posted: 6/10/2009 9:44:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 10:05:49 AM EST by sgtlmj]
I will never shoot steel cased ammo through any of my firearms. Especially a $1500-$2000 rifle. No way––no how. The only exception is my junker MAK90, which would feed gunpowder-coated rocks all day long.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 10:35:59 AM EST
I only shoot steel in my AK's. Nothing else.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 10:52:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By LUGERMAN:
I only shoot steel in my AK's. Nothing else.


Same here. I would think that with today's ammo prices any rifle manufactured for the civilian market would be designed to be able to run fine with steel cased ammo. It looks like if you use the proper setting it should run fine. All the same I am saving up for my MSAR. Its hard to get that much together at one time when you are in college. I can afford AKs and can piece by piece build an AR but getting it all at one time takes a little longer. I was thinking about putting one on lay away locally until I got the OTD price,$1950. Fuck that. I will wait till I get a little more money put together and maybe talk to Blaine at Atlantic or do some GB hunting. I am about half way there. I really think the MSAR is comfortable and I am really into the Bullpup design. In all honestly there are only a few things that bother me about the MSAR design:1) I have not seen one eject but I dont like the location of the ejection port. I may think otherwise after shooting one but its just an initial observation 2) AR mags would be nice... I know, I know E4. 3) Really want some caliber conversions. esp .22LR(full blown with barrel and all) but I am an AK fanatic so 7.62x39,51or 54 interest me but I know are unlikely. Pistol calibers dont interest me because if I have to pay as much for a pistol cal as a rifle cal I want a rifle. I know the rifles are cheaper but the only pistol caliber that would make it cost effective for me would be 9mm. I like the recent removal of the forward assist and Mag compatibility improvements. I love the bullpup design because of it being a compact rifle and the ability to have complete control of the barrel.

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:18:49 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:28:35 AM EST
What do you think about running steel cased ammo through an MSAR , Dave?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 1:56:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 2:04:29 PM EST by SilentType]
http://www.msarinc.com/bulletin.html

AMMUNITION ADVISORY from TONY

To all STG-556 owners. I have said this before and I will say it again. If you are having ANY reliability problems at all with your STG-556, let me know and we will work closely with you to remedy the problems at our expense. If there are certain ammo issues with questionable ammo, we are willing to investigate the problems and try to remedy these also. We will do some extensive testing with some of this ammo and determine if it is ammo or gun related. We use Lake City, Federal, Winchester FMJ, and Remington 55gr for all of our testing.

The reason why we use domestic ammunition is for the simple fact that we have a level of accountability here that you cannot anticipate having with companies located overseas, such as Wolf, Norinco, just to name a few. A majority of the import ammunition or inexpensive alternative import ammo brands are very difficult for us to acquire in steady and large enough quantity to establish an appropriate and accurate base line. We will however try to get some of it so we can perform some test firing with it unfortunately I do not believe I am going to be able to guarantee performance with certain brands.

We will thoroughly document this testing with video and data collection to try and determine specific problem areas if there be any. As with any high end product, most times you need to feed a premium engine, premium fuel to expect top performance. Any of you who needs to contact me please do so. I am available for questions almost 24-7. Regardless of any outcome that we find regarding ammunition types that do not properly function we are committed to your safety and satisfaction. I will be out of the office from the 6th through the 9th of this month, but, still feel free to call me anytime on my cell phone. Thanks, Tony Marfione, VP MSAR Cell Phone: 814-558-5333


What I take away from the above "advisory" is that they manufactured the rifle to shoot 5.56x45 NATO and .223 Remington ammunition made to or close to MIL/U.S. specs. I get the feeling that at the time that "advisory" was posted they did not want to make a declaratory sweeping statement that all imported ammunition would feed, fire, and eject as well as U.S. manufactured ammunition.

Can't blame them. The STG-556 is a western nation produced rifle from a western design that was intended to fire western ammunition. Tomac has good luck with Brown Bear and that is steeled cased, but who knows if he would have the same luck with different brands of steel cased ammunition? I've read other reports of posters claiming to have used Wolf with good results as well, but I've always read reports of guys having FTE's (what a shocker) with steel cased ammo as well.

Look the STG-556 will shoot steeled case ammo, but don't blame the rifle when you get an FTE. Shooting Steel Cased ammo is just going to bring you more malfunctions than otherwise would happen. Fact of life. If you can deal with the frustration level as a trade off for the affordability go for it.

I don't condemn anyone for going to Steel Cased right now though with the cost of ammo. I'm feeding off my stock right now, but I'm not looking forward to having to buy more once it's gone. Went to my local Wally World and every box of ammunition, and I mean everything, was gone sold. A guy was telling me the other day that the gentleman from Gandor Mountain came over and bought up a ton of ammo from a Walmart to take over and charge more at Gandor Mountain. Prices on ammo are so bad I feel like every time I have to purchase any I've been mugged and tossed down the stairs.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:07:23 PM EST
I understand what your saying Silent. I guess I am a little spoiled shooting AKs so much. Never really had to worry what ammo I used so long it was the correct caliber. I may have to hold off to see how well the steel works for others. I cannot afford to be shooting brass every time I go out and I want something that can shoot steel or brass reliably. That way I can go out and enjoy it and get good with it rather than just look at it. It will be a different story when I am out of college.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:50:13 PM EST
Although I've had the occasional problem w/steel cased in my STG's, it's not bad enough to offset the savings (sorry, I ain't rich enough to shoot brass-cased ammo exclusively, no matter how much I may want to). With that being said, stick w/the Silver Bear (if you can find it) as it's hotter & cleaner than Wolf or Brown Bear, it's my fav practice ammo.
Tomac
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:54:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tomac:
Although I've had the occasional problem w/steel cased in my STG's, it's not bad enough to offset the savings (sorry, I ain't rich enough to shoot brass-cased ammo exclusively, no matter how much I may want to). With that being said, stick w/the Silver Bear (if you can find it) as it's hotter & cleaner than Wolf or Brown Bear, it's my fav practice ammo.
Tomac


Good deal. I will keep saving and hopefully pick up a MSAR by the end of next month. I did not know silver bear runs hotter.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 3:40:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 3:41:48 PM EST by SilentType]
Originally Posted By JTM23:
I understand what your saying Silent. I guess I am a little spoiled shooting AKs so much. Never really had to worry what ammo I used so long it was the correct caliber. I may have to hold off to see how well the steel works for others. I cannot afford to be shooting brass every time I go out and I want something that can shoot steel or brass reliably. That way I can go out and enjoy it and get good with it rather than just look at it. It will be a different story when I am out of college.


I here ya. Money is tight right now and ammo is just about the only thing it seems people are buying. I'm shocked a college student can even think about affording a $1K+ firearm. I was lucky to get enough money put together for food and bills during college.



Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:54:46 PM EST
Any properly made firearm should shoot any SAAMI specification ammunition and SAAMI specification ammuniton should be fine in any properly made firearm. Wolf is manufactured to SAAMI specifications. And Wolf is not exactly known for kaBooming rifles (actually I've never seen a documented case).

Remington green box 55 grain is well-known for blowing up ARs. And then there are all the "remanufacturers" and small-scale manufacturers who have a track record for blowing up guns (Maine Cartridge Company, AMERC, Ultramax) ... and some people will even shoot reloads of unknown origin before they shoot Wolf.

Huh. And MSAR fails to realize that Wolf (a US importing firm with office in Anaheim, CA) is a US company that stands behind its product.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 3:57:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 4:02:48 PM EST by SilentType]
Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Any properly made firearm should shoot any SAAMI specification ammunition and SAAMI specification ammuniton should be fine in any properly made firearm. Wolf is manufactured to SAAMI specifications. And Wolf is not exactly known for kaBooming rifles (actually I've never seen a documented case).

Remington green box 55 grain is well-known for blowing up ARs. And then there are all the "remanufacturers" and small-scale manufacturers who have a track record for blowing up guns (Maine Cartridge Company, AMERC, Ultramax) ... and some people will even shoot reloads of unknown origin before they shoot Wolf.

Huh. And MSAR fails to realize that Wolf (a US importing firm with office in Anaheim, CA) is a US company that stands behind its product.


I don't see where in MSAR's "Ammunition Advisory" they failed "to realize that WOLF is a US company." They simply hold that WOLF is not domestically manufactured and that is true.

The problem with WOLF isn't that it KBs. Haven't seen anyone suggest that. If you get KBs you're right chances are it's "remanufactured" or "reloads" that cause it. Haven't seen any STG-556 that has KB'd and I have never seen or heard of any AUG or USR that has either.







Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:00:33 AM EST
Originally Posted By SilentType:
I don't see where in MSAR's "Ammunition Advisory" they failed "to realize that WOLF is a US company." They simply hold that WOLF is not domestically manufactured and that is true.

The problem with WOLF isn't that it KBs. Haven't seen anyone suggest that. If you get KBs you're right chances are it's "remanufactured" or "reloads" that cause it. Haven't seen any STG-556 that has KB'd and I have never seen or heard of any AUG or USR that has either.


Quoted from your positing of MSAR's ammunition advisory above (in red):

The reason why we use domestic ammunition is for the simple fact that we have a level of accountability here that you cannot anticipate having with companies located overseas, such as Wolf, Norinco, just to name a few.


MSAR specifically states Wolf is located overseas. They are not. Wolf Performance Ammunition is located in California. They import ammunition made in several Russian and Serbian plants.

I have purchased and supervised the use of Wolf ammunition by the pallet load (yes, hundreds of thousands of rounds) since 2004. Wolf has always honored their 100% guarantee of their product, while numerous domestic remanufacturing companies have sprung up, become the latest Internet fad, etc. - while leaving a twisted trail of unfulfilled orders, kaBoomed rifles and pistols, and people with piles of ammunition they dare not shoot.

There is no perfect ammunition. Brass cartridge cases do no equal "high quality" nor does mild steel cartridge cases equal "junk". A properly designed, properly manufactured and properly maintained firearms should operate with any ammunition that meets SAAMI specifications. Beyond that, one really has to research the basis for a product's reputation.

Old_Painless did in his Box o'Truth page on Wolf and the so-called "melting lacquer" myth. There are myths about how mild steel cartridge cases (which are metallurgically much softer than the steel used in firearms and only slightly less elastic than brass) some how wear out the high strength steels used in firearms.

I find Wolf 62 grain .223 to be as accurate as LC M855 for training at 100 yards or less. Its not precision ammunition and its dirty (and the powder stinks). It lets me shoot a lot. I'd rather shoot a lot and be proficient than go to the range twice a year in tweeds with my gun bearer and shoot 30 rounds.

Because Wolf is a US company, if you destroy your rifle with Wolf brand ammunition, you have the same "level of accountability " that you do with a US company. Wolf has the same liability as Remington, Winchester or Black Hills. South African surplus, not so much.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:04:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 7:27:13 AM EST by SilentType]
The advisory is about ammunition and hence focuses on where the ammunition sold is manufactured and not where the company that imports it and distributes it is incorporated.

MSAR is not attempting to make a legal distinction in their "ammunition advisory," but instead is giving a statement that ammunition sold under the Wolf brand is manufactured overseas. An explanation of Wolf Performance Ammunition's logistical supply chain and distinctions between them as the importer/distributor of the ammunition and the specific nations and overseas companies that supply them is not necessary for a technical advisory to the general consumer.

I don't work for MSAR or represent them in any capacity, but I believe it is clear when reading the entire statement that the "level of accountability" refers not to legal accountability, but instead to the ability of MSAR to consistently obtain ammunition manufactured by the same company in large quantities. Placing the statements in context the MSAR advisory reads as follows:

We use Lake City, Federal, Winchester FMJ, and Remington 55gr for all of our testing. The reason why we use domestic ammunition is for the simple fact that we have a level of accountability here that you cannot anticipate having with companies located overseas, such as Wolf, Norinco, just to name a few. A majority of the import ammunition or inexpensive alternative import ammo brands are very difficult for us to acquire in steady and large enough quantity to establish an appropriate and accurate base line.http://www.msarinc.com/bulletin.html


As you can see MSAR uses Lake City, Federal, Winchester FMJ, and Remington in their tests, because they obtain a steady and large enough quantity of it for testing. MSAR appears to be stating that because the ammunition sold under the Wolf brand is manufactured overseas it is impossible to distinguish where that ammunition is manufactured, whether it is all the same manufacture, and impossible to insure a steady supply of a single source from the distributor/importer Wolf. Without being able to be scientific in their testing with one supply of ammunition from one single source it is impossible to make a sweeping and declaratory statement about whether the ammunition will feed, fire and eject without issue.

If that is in fact what they are saying, and I believe it is, than I agree. You can not make a declaratory statement about ammunition that is manufactured, as ODA_564 correctly points out, by several overseas manufactures and then packaged under one brand.

MSAR is not making any damning statements about the Wolf brand, but instead simply providing an explanation of why they can not advise use of it. Again, we have an STG-556 owner who just fired 2,000 rounds of steel cased Brown Bear through two STG-556 rifles reporting only a single failure in one of the two rifles (I believe that was all) and Brown Bear is manufactured overseas. Obviously, the STG-556 is capable of firing steel cased ammunition, but MSAR can not warrant how that ammunition will perform in their rifle due to practical real world difficulties in carrying out tests on it. To warrant the reliable use of steel cased ammunition sold under the Wolf brand or other who obtain their ammunition from overseas would be irresponsible. I don't think TOMAC could say that all lots of Brown Bear ammunition would perform the same as what he has fired through his rifles since it's likely that like WOLF they too obtain their ammunition from several sources overseas.

So, if you shoot foreign manufactured ammunition YMMV. Some have reported it is as fairly dependable, some have stated some foreign ammunition is underpowered and requires a high gas setting to be set on the STG, some have reported it as feeding, firing, and ejection excellently under standard gas pressure, and some have reported failures and malfunctions at higher rates with foreign ammunition than domestic ammunition. YMMV.

If someone turns a rifle over to MSAR for warranty service and they look at it and fire it with their domestically manufactured ammunition and it works fine then that's all MSAR can do. They can't run down to the market and say "we've got exactly the same type of ammunition manufactured by the same overseas plant as the one the user was using when it failed." If they can't do that than they can't figure out what the issue is and whether it was with the rifle or the ammunition.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 9:05:53 AM EST
Just like brass, not well. My AUG spits out steel Wolf and other Russian ammo with no problem. Go ahead and respond people with "TROLL".
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:49:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Phoenix356:
Just like brass, not well. My AUG spits out steel Wolf and other Russian ammo with no problem. Go ahead and respond people with "TROLL".


So you are saying no type ammo will run in the MSAR?

I've shot several of them, hundreds of rounds, with very few problems.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:30:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By IndianJoe:
Originally Posted By Phoenix356:
Just like brass, not well. My AUG spits out steel Wolf and other Russian ammo with no problem. Go ahead and respond people with "TROLL".


So you are saying no type ammo will run in the MSAR?

I've shot several of them, hundreds of rounds, with very few problems.


I've put over 6,000 rds through 4 different STG's with no brass-cased ammo failures and no more than 15 FTE's from steel-cased ammo. I can live w/a .0025% failure rate in my practice ammo...
Tomac

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:08:31 PM EST
I'm sorry, but if MSAR is claiming they can reliably get Lake City ammunition in quantity, when Lake City ammunition is produced for the US Government (by ATK, which sells QC rejects as the "XM___PD" under the Federal brand) and they can't get Wolf then that's pretty strange. Of course, right now, all .223 is hard to get.

These "ammunition advisories" that various firearms manufactures put out are generally to limit liability. There is at least one firearms manufacturer that uses Wolf for their factory test fire.

My STG 556 has handled all domestic and foreign manufactured 5.56x45mm and .223 Remington ammunition I have fed it, 55 grain - 62 grain - and 75 grain. All was produced at either a government ammunition plant or by a major ammunition company. All .223 was commercial SAAMI specification from a major ammunition company.

I have had no problems with Radway Green SS109 5.56x45mm (not commercial and not available in quantity any more); ADCOM M855 5.56x45mm (not available in quantity any more); XM855PD 5.56x45mm (manufactured at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant but rejected at final QC an sold in bulk by Federal); Prvi Partizan (formerly the Yugoslav State Ammunition Plant) 75 grain "match" .223; Black Hills 75 grain Mk 262 5.56x45mm "seconds" (not available in quantity); and Wolf Performance "back box" .233 (manufactured at the Tula Ammunition Works in Russia - which wasn't hard to find out; Wolf "Military Classic .223 is made at the Ulyanovsk Ammunition Works - both are former Soviet state ammunition plants).

The only ammunition I've actually had issues with is Black Hills commercial "blue box" 75 grain .223 - and that was because of the lack of a cannalure. Its subject to bullet setback.

The only issue I have had with my STG 556 was the extremely tight magazine well (at first) but that wore in.

So, to re-address the original question: In my personal experience, with my STG 556, Wolf Performance Ammunition ("black box") 62 grain .223 Remington ammunition has been reasonably accurate (for training ammunition) at ranges up to 100 yards and has been reliable. Your mileage may vary, void where prohibited by law, etc.
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