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Posted: 11/12/2002 8:03:54 AM EST
My dad is looking into getting a home defense shotgun. He is very familiar with shotguns, but his wife is not. She will be trained on how to use it, but he wants it to be as simple as possible for her. What are your recommendations?
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:30:46 AM EST
Depending on her size, I think that a 16 or 20 gauge may be a good compromise. In the home, you don't really need the power of a 12 gauge. The 16 or 20 gauge will provide plenty of fire power, and but not kick as bad as the 12. Also, I think a pump gun would be the best for simplicity's sake.

As for specific models? A Rem 870, Winchester 1300 or Mossberg 500 would all be good choices (Rem 870 at the top of the list.)

I use a Benelli M1 Super90 for home defense, but I know that the wife doesn't like to shoot it. I would like to get her a shotgun of her own. If only money did grow on trees......

Link Posted: 11/12/2002 8:31:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 12:14:33 PM EST
Honestly I have to disagree with these 2. I would get her a 12 guage. THink here for a second, when it comes down to the time she may need to use it one or 2 shots is going to be all youll need/get a chance to fire. You might as well get as much buckshot downrange while you have the chance to. dont think recoil would matter to my little sister if her life was on the line.
I would recommend a mossberg 500, win 1300 or a rem 870 pump shotgun for her
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:36:34 PM EST
Thanks for the input.

My dad's wife is about 5'9" and 135-140 pounds. He was leaning towards a 12 gauge for the reasons Hoplite suggested. It looks like the Remington 870 will be the gun of choice.
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 3:41:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 11/12/2002 5:03:29 PM EST
absolutely 12 ga. ask any big game hunter about perceived recoil during hunting and he/she will look at you like, "what recoil". In a life and death situation recoil makes no difference and the real consideration here should be getting the most bang for the buck. Usually the guys who worry the most about recoil are the competition shooters who are only concerned about their chances of winning a match and not saving their life.
Link Posted: 11/14/2002 5:22:18 PM EST
I subscribe to bigger bore, lighter loads. With a 12 gauge you can always use lighter loads for smaller shooters.

Recoil is an issue for practice. If it hurts she won't practice. I am big fan of 870's but for my wife I am thinking the Nova with the internal recoil reducer in the stock.

Combine that Nova with Federal buffered loads, say in #4 buck and their tactical slugs, I think that could be very friendly set up.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 4:06:39 AM EST
I will send my dad the link for this forum. Thanks for your input.
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 10:59:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zoub:
I subscribe to bigger bore, lighter loads. With a 12 gauge you can always use lighter loads for smaller shooters.

Recoil is an issue for practice. If it hurts she won't practice. I am big fan of 870's but for my wife I am thinking the Nova with the internal recoil reducer in the stock.

Combine that Nova with Federal buffered loads, say in #4 buck and their tactical slugs, I think that could be very friendly set up.



i have the nova with recoil reducer and to be honest I dont think it does anything. I'm not sure how mercury in a tube is suposed to help with recoil on a shotgun
Link Posted: 11/15/2002 1:17:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/15/2002 1:20:05 PM EST by Zoub]
Hoplite, the Mercury is heavier than other liquids, like water. So weight is one factor that helps. The fact that it is a liquid, it also moves and absorbs some of the recoil. They do work.

I think the issue is when you use heavy loads, you are going to get kicked no mater what. If you use lighter loads in that Nova, like bird shot or Federal Tactical loads, you might notice the reduction more.

Buy some Federal tactical buffered loads from ammoman and try it with that gun.

Of course we are talking about pumps and ease of operation for a new shooter, otherwise we use a semi-auto!

I don't have a problem with recoil, so rather than add weight to an 870 witha reducer, I prefer to have the barrels backbored and use ports. I could see doing ALL 3 on a Nova. I wonder if Vang makes a barrel for Nova's yet?
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 6:28:53 AM EST
Poster, I think the 20 gauge is better for a inexperienced shooter, less recoil, plenty of power. MIKE.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 6:41:26 PM EST
I'd put in another vote for a 12 guage. You can pick a load they can handle. Main thing though, be sure the stock is short enough for them, you might need to cut it down a bit for them.
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 11:46:47 AM EST
I would also look at the .410 shotgun; more stoping power than the .44 Mag and less recoil, I think Mossber used to make them.

Othen than that I would suggest going with the 16 or the 20 pump.

BR
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 12:07:45 PM EST
Don't envision the gun tolerating extreme envionments or enduring thousand(s)-round torture tests, and although my recommendation is generally a 12ga 870, I think that, based upon your description, the 1100 LT-20 is the best choice. (Get a skeet tube for $20 if you want.)
Link Posted: 12/5/2002 12:10:32 PM EST
Shoot one of the Saigas. I have heard they are extremely reliable and have little recoil in comparison to standard models. Pretty reasonably priced, too.
Link Posted: 12/7/2002 5:05:43 AM EST
http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm
This link leads to an excellent article regarding shotgun ammunition for home defense. I think you'll find it very useful and informative.
If you do go the Mossberg route, I'd look at a 590 instead of a 500.
I have two Remingtion 870's, one being a Scattergun Technologies.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 11:45:24 AM EST
Stony, what do you think of the Scattergun 870? I know that Wilson makes them, but are they worth the $$$? (I'm thinking of buying a home defense shotgun myself, and I just want something nice)....
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 12:43:09 PM EST
My votes for a Mossberg 500 preferably a 590 which features larger mag and shorter barrel. They are simple, reliable, and inexpensive. It was the shotgun of choice when I was in the service. The sound of the cocking will send fear into the heart of any intruder. Great for a woman for it is just cock, point, and pull the trigger. You only have to aim in the general direction.
Link Posted: 12/19/2002 4:12:21 PM EST
Why a Mossberg 500 over a Remington 870?
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 4:27:33 AM EST
I have read that 870 in 20ga. is not as reliable as the 12ga. version. If going w/ 20 ga. (my recommendation) get the 500. Its cheaper too.
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 12:39:23 PM EST
Capt, I own 6-870's. Three 12 gauges, two Wing Masters and one Express. My 20 gauge is a Wing Master and both my 28 gauge and .410 bore are Express models. I have been using 870's for over thirty years and they all preform flawlessly. MIKE. P.S. Yes I am going to buy a 16 gauge.

Tom, I picked the Mossberg 500 over the Remington 870 when buying youth models for my sons. That is because the 500 youth has a easy reach forearm, the forearm is longer for shorter shooters. The pistol grip is thinner and closer to the receiver for smaller hands and full size stocks are offered at half price when needed. That being said having three 500's and six 870's their is no comparision. I would take the 870 over the 500. But if money was an issue and it was no shotgun or a 500 I would buy the 500 and shoot it with pride. MIKE
Link Posted: 12/20/2002 1:11:31 PM EST
Ditto what Mike said.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:20:51 AM EST
I bought my wife a 20 ga. Mossberg M500 youth gun. She's a little more petite (5' 3", about 110lbs) and had a difficult time even shouldering any of the larger guns. I bought an 18.5 plain barrel and had it Pro-Ported. In addition, I put one of those mercury recoil reducers in the stock. With all of this, she is able to shoot REAL loads without much discomfort.

Yes, under pressure you don't feel recoil, but you have to practice to become proficient with any gun. Shooting a full-size gun with full power 12 ga loads, a new (and petite) shooter is going to quit very soon. You have to do your best to help them out.

With the above set-up, my wife was able to complete a combat match consisting of more than 30 rounds of buckshot and 10 slugs. I was proud of her.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:27:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 1:00:59 PM EST by redray]
MOSSBERG 590 special purpose (what that is, is up to you!)


#50665 590® 12 ga. Pump Action 9-shot capacity, parkerized finish, bead sight, 20" cylinder bore barrel with heat shield and Speed-Feed® stock.


happy bad guy hunting!!
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:44:31 AM EST
these work quite well- easy to handle, and plenty of "authority". Mossberg 500c in 20ga. I know I wouldn't want to meet one in the night...

Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:55:39 AM EST
Most of the major ammo manufacturers are making 12ga. "Tactical" or "reduced recoil" loads that FEEL like 20ga. Id go with the 12 and locate a quantity of them. Ammoman has the reduced recoil Federal 00 Buck and 1 oz slugs. I like the Remington 8 pellet 00. Patterns nice and tight.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:12:48 AM EST
What's the deal with pistol grips and foldable stocks on shotguns? ...they kosher for new guns?
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 11:25:28 AM EST
As long as they are not semi-autos.. only semi's are included in the awb.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:31:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 12:37:42 PM EST by hoss622]
One other reason that I prefer a Mossberg M500 / M590 over the Remington 870, is the shell carrier configuration. On the 870, the carrier blocks the loading port and must be pushed out of the way under spring tension each time a new round is loaded into the magazine. Some people even get pinched by this mechanism on occasion. The Mossberg's shell carrier is out of the way when the bolt is forward. This is a small thing, but it does make reloads under stress a little more trouble free.

We run a pretty tough combat shotgun match every year at my club, with a lot of it taking place in a nasty swamp. Guns and ammo get very dirty. In general, there doesn't seem to be any real difference in reliability between the 870 and the M500/590 pumps. In the past 10 years, I haven't seen either one jam. Autoloaders are another matter. It brings an evil gleam into the eye of a pump-gun man, such as myself, to see a $1000 Benelli turned into a single shot because of a little bit of mud and dirt.

Pump guns get a bad "reliability" rap by some, when in fact the actual problem is operator error. The biggest problem seems to be the tendancy of poorly trained shooters to "short-shuck" pump-guns. Operator error is a completely different matter from inherent mechanical reliability. Unfortunately, the response of many military and law enforcement organizations has been to address a training issue by throwing money at the problem by replacing good pumpguns with more expensive, more complicated and less inherently reliable auto-loaders.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:48:57 PM EST
In general, pistol grips and folding stocks look a lot better than they work. Noone that spends any real time shooting their combat shotgun uses these things. With just a pistol grip, you're just "point-shooting". It may seem cool to do on the range, but this has no place in defensive shooting.

Most of the folding stocks out there are pretty painful to shoot for more than one or two rounds. I attended a tactical shotgun class last summer where one of the shooters had a gun so-equipped. At first the shooter tried to cope with the pain by wrapping a towel around the metal part of the stock. Eventually, the shooter just borrowed one of the instructor's guns.

Fixed pistol grip stocks are another matter altogether. I have a Choate stock on my M590. It seems to make the gun a little bit easier to hold at the shoulder one-handed while using the weak hand to grab ammo, open doors, etc. Unfortunately, it doesn't handle recoil as well as the standard factory stock, especially when shooting slugs from the prone position. Everything is a trade-off. The factory fixed pistol grip stocks on the Benelli M1's are even more comfortable.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:50:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Most of the major ammo manufacturers are making 12ga. "Tactical" or "reduced recoil" loads that FEEL like 20ga. Id go with the 12 and locate a quantity of them. Ammoman has the reduced recoil Federal 00 Buck and 1 oz slugs. I like the Remington 8 pellet 00. Patterns nice and tight.



Anyone know if these work reliably in a Benelli ??
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:53:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By BuLLet:
As long as they are not semi-autos.. only semi's are included in the awb.



You can put a pistol grip stock on an semi-auto shotgun but then your restricted to a 5 round mag limit

Anything goes for pump shotguns.

I have an 870 a Benelli & a Winchester 1300 defender.
I think the Winchester is underrated. The rotary bolt makes for a fast action. I like it better than the Remington.

Is the Remington the only common pump out there with a steel receiver ??
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 1:31:20 PM EST
My Brothers' Benelli does fine with the Federal Tactical loads. I have even shot at multiple clays with it using only light bird shot loads and it cycled every time. I am not sure there is a more reliable semi-auto shotgun made.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 7:35:15 PM EST
Remington 870 all the way. I just had a rail and OKO dot sight installed on mine, I am picking it up on Sat.

Heres a link to my current config.
www.geocities.com/derekshepd/guns/870.jpg
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:10:16 PM EST
cnatra,

I had an older M1 Benelli with the old 19 3/4" rifle sighted barrel that ran just fine on Federal Tactical after I did a lot of polishing. Had to on the bolt's tail rod and on the arched hammer bearing surface, as well as the race rails. As long as I kept it well lubed, it ran until about 150 rounds. Then it started getting sluggish. My newer Benelli Tactical with the 18 1/2" barrel seems to have a stiffer recoil spring and chokes on the Tac loads everytime. Wolfe makes a reduced power recoils spring. Its not a LOT less, so it should make things go smooth without beating up the gun.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:35:40 AM EST
Those of us who are "into" guns tend to forget that standard models of good design and quality can usually do just fine right out of the box. Either the Mossy or the 870 with short barrel will do anything your dad needs to do for home defense with no customizing at all. My choice for this would be the Remington "Defense" Express model now being marketed for around $289 or so. Across the living room, choke won't matter much nor will the type of Buckshot. (I prefer #000, but the rest are fine, too) Under low light conditions, the tendency is to shoot too high with both shotgun and handgun. This can be helped with nothing more than a big blob of "white-out" on the top of the muzzle...not pretty, but functional.

I would also consider something like an 1100 auto with cut down barrel, so all she has to remember is to push the safety..."Flush on the right / Ready to fight"...and pull trigger. The #1 shotgun failure in actual field use by LEOs is failure to take the safety off before trying to fire. (Believe it or not!) Remember that almost all long guns have safety mechanisms that act ONLY to block rearward movement of the trigger...they will NOT prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if the gun is dropped, etc. Certainly, that applies to Remington shotguns.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 5:52:31 AM EST
I've shot against Hoss622 and can vouch for the performance of the Mossberg 590. I personally prefer the Remington 870. If you shop around the gun shops you can often get a used Remington 870 Express for $150. That in and of itself would be sufficient for most home defense scenarios. If you want to kick it up a notch they make a great base weapon for modification. I took one such weapon and was able to transform it into something that would rival a Scattergun Technologies gun at less than the cost. Sometimes those places will have a bin of used shotgun barrels. Try to get an 18" improved cylinder choke barrel with front bead on your weapon if you plan on putting Trak Loc ghost ring sights on it.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 6:16:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
cnatra,
I had an older M1 Benelli with the old 19 3/4" rifle sighted barrel that ran just fine on Federal Tactical after I did a lot of polishing. Had to on the bolt's tail rod and on the arched hammer bearing surface, as well as the race rails. As long as I kept it well lubed, it ran until about 150 rounds. Then it started getting sluggish. My newer Benelli Tactical with the 18 1/2" barrel seems to have a stiffer recoil spring and chokes on the Tac loads everytime. Wolfe makes a reduced power recoils spring. Its not a LOT less, so it should make things go smooth without beating up the gun.



Thanks for the info. I'll have to get some & try it. Mines a 18.5" gun I bought in '98.
I'd heard that the low power "tac" loads sometimes caused problems for the Benelli's & Berretta recoil operated guns.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:32:33 PM EST
PosterChild,
Here are some things to think about: The pump shotgun MUST be fully stroked, fore and aft, before reliability is maintained... The twelve gauge is the most extensive variety of ammo available. If using a pump gun, you should investigate a Benelli Nova, and the pump action is shorter than the Remington 870 or Mossberg 590- I know, I've had both... Instead of 0,00, 000, or any slugs, I would suggest 2 3/4" Remington 1Buck loads... Devastating for those on the receiving end, while being easily controlled by the defender. Also unlikely to exit to points unknown, reducing collateral damage... Buy snap-caps, so that YOU and YOUR WIFE can practice... Dry firing without snap-caps is NOT a good idea... You might also try Hornady reduced recoil police tactical loads... Velocity is lower, but "throw weight" is the same... After all, projectiles on target, is the name of the game... Have her pracice with "shooting" at two targets at least three or four feet apart. This will get her into the practice of acquiring, engaging, ejecting and acquiring a new target, and engaging a second enemy. Control is everything. Hope these ideas will help...
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 11:26:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/7/2003 11:29:29 AM EST by Bang]
I have the 870 with the 18" barrel. Great shotgun. I put a Side Saddle and an Uncle Mike's shell holder on it for a total of 18 rounds. That should take care of your home defense.

Bang hippie.gif

http://mysite.verizon.net/res06fvc/8701.jpg
Who's that knockin' on my door?
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:30:34 AM EST
Thanks again for all the good info. I will pass it along to my dad. And I am using the information myself for me and my fiance for our home defense strategy. I'll post some pics when I get them.

I have access to an inexpensive, NIB Mossberg 500 Persuader with the standard pistol grip for pretty cheap here. However, I'd like to add the pistol grip - buttstock option shown below. Has anyone had any experiences with these...?

www.combatstocks.com/itemDetail.cfm?id=3
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 8:28:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/8/2003 8:33:27 AM EST by cnatra]
I've never used ATI stuff but I have a Choate stock that I like.

www.riflestock.com
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