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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 4/17/2002 9:12:18 AM EDT
I have a 91...I have lots of mags and accessories for it. But the lack of a bolt stop bugs the shit out of me, and let's face it, compared to an AR10, it's not the most comfortable thing in the world to shoot.

I am in lust with an Armalite AR10 Carbine in camouflage. I know mags are expensive, and I'm prepared to deal with that. I shot a full-size AR10A4 a while back and was amazed at its low recoil and accuracy...the idea of an M-4 sized .308 in camo just gives me a stiffy. I love the way the thing handles.

Does anyone have input on the reliability and durability of the AR10 system? The dilemma is that I'd be trading off my 91 to get the AR10. Is this a step down or not?

Thanks!
QS
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:15:48 AM EDT
No offense to AR-15's - I own em and love em too, but there is no comparison in engineering when it comes to the two rifles. The HK is technologically superior and more reliable. Bottom line.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:19:08 AM EDT
TRADE!!! ARE YOU CRAZY???

the 91 is easly a 3000.00 rifle
a ar-10 is a 1200.00 rifle.

keep your 91,
sell one of your children to buy the ar-10

buy about 3 mags now.
that will hold you.
when you save up the 12 Ben-ja-mins pick up the rifle but NEVER sell the 91.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:23:18 AM EDT
I didn't mean even!!! LOL..not that dumb!

Judging by the emphatic responses so far, this is in fact a dumb-ass idea.

I knew I could count on you guys for good advice...

QS
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:23:09 AM EDT
Keep your 91. That is one rifle that has about a snowballs change in hell to every be available again in this country, as a new rifle. AR10s are plentiful, and are still being made today.

I am not a big HK fan, but that is a superior rifle compared to the AR10. If you do sell it, I would expect about $2000 to $2500 for it, here in Indiana. The HK 93s are the ones bringing $3k.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 10:29:32 AM EDT
If you have an orginal 91, unless you are starving to death, don't sell or trade it. But, I can see cashing in at a certain point and replaceing it with as good a functioning replacement for a lot less money. I would command top dollar.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 4:40:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By macloud:
I am not a big HK fan, but that is a superior rifle compared to the AR10.


Superior how?
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:10:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:33:21 PM EDT
Repeat after me:

I WILL NEVER SELL A GUN UNLESS I'M DYING OF STARVATION!!!



Now, HK-91 superior to AR-10? Me thinks whoever really believes that has never shot both. Less recoil, FAR greater accuracy, and lighter weight go to the AR-10. HK-91 more reliable? Otay. Never have had a failure with the AR-10, or the HK for that matter. Frankly, they are equal in terms of reliability in my experience (of thousands and thousands of rounds, and the thousands of rounds of experience of my friends who own them). The plus side of the HK is that mags are a whole lot cheaper, and you don't have to play chase the ass to have regular capacity magazines. That being said, I own neither. I would like to eventually own both, but for now I'm finding the my M1A is better for my needs (and since it is payed for it's better for my college student broke-ass pocketbook).
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 5:57:55 PM EDT
Tyler, momentary lapse of reason..that's why I came in here to get some sense slapped back into me!

I guess I'll just save the $ and build my M4-Magnum later.

Accuracy, the 91 is great...it's just rowdy as hell to shoot because of that bad-ass 2 pound chunk of German steel they call a bolt carrier banging back and forth in the receiver.

Thanks again all!
QS
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:03:04 PM EDT
Definately worthwhile for you to build an AR10 for target duty, but for field work, I'd take your HK any day of the week! I've heard too many stories about the HK taking beating after beating without jamming.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:11:35 PM EDT
I would stick with the HK91 ans save my penny's to get the AR-10. Another big plus for the HK is that there seems to be alot of mags around right now and cheap. You can't say that for the AR-10!
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:17:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Tyler, momentary lapse of reason..that's why I came in here to get some sense slapped back into me!

I guess I'll just save the $ and build my M4-Magnum later.

Accuracy, the 91 is great...it's just rowdy as hell to shoot because of that bad-ass 2 pound chunk of German steel they call a bolt carrier banging back and forth in the receiver.

Thanks again all!
QS



Doesn't Buffer Technologies still make a recoil buffer for the HK/G3 type rifles. If they should do you should try it. could help make it more comfortable to shoot.

Cant some FN FAL mags be converted to shoot in the AR-10 rifles.

lib
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 6:23:03 PM EDT
I'm not sure what you guys mean when you refer to the HK 91's recoil that way. My SR-9 (basically a politically-corrected 91) is extremely gentle. Sure it kicks brass into low earth orbit, but it's soft on the shoulder. HK used to advertise the SR-9 as the softest recoiling .308 on the market.

I've never handled an AR-10 except at gun shows, but browsing this site for the last year or so sure has given me the bug to get one! Now if only I could remember where I left that pile of cash . . .
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:34:58 PM EDT

Now, HK-91 superior to AR-10? Me thinks whoever really believes that has never shot both. Less recoil, FAR greater accuracy, and lighter weight go to the AR-10. HK-91 more reliable? Otay. Never have had a failure with the AR-10, or the HK for that matter. Frankly, they are equal in terms of reliability in my experience (of thousands and thousands of rounds, and the thousands of rounds of experience of my friends who own them). The plus side of the HK is that mags are a whole lot cheaper, and you don't have to play chase the ass to have regular capacity magazines. That being said, I own neither. I would like to eventually own both, but for now I'm finding the my M1A is better for my needs (and since it is payed for it's better for my college student broke-ass pocketbook).


Matter of fact, I own one of each (in the 223 variety). The HK design has fewer parts. There is no gas tube to melt or plug up. It will fire when soaked in sand, mud, or water. It will fire any ammo you can put in it. You can use it as a club without damaging the rifle. It's steel construction is much more durable than the aluminum framed AR style rifles. The rifle will withstand far more physical abuse than an AR will.

I don't need this type of rifle for shooting 1" groups, I can get a kill shot at 225 yards with the HK, and that's good enough for that type of rifle.

If the occasion ever occurs were I am forced to live in the woods and survive off the land, the HK rifle would be my choice. I don't want to have to worry about keeping my rifle clean or dry. I know the HK will fire in an extremely dirty state, I can not say that about an AR rifle.



Link Posted: 4/17/2002 8:41:48 PM EDT

If the occasion ever occurs were I am forced to live in the woods and survive off the land, the HK rifle would be my choice. I don't want to have to worry about keeping my rifle clean or dry. I know the HK will fire in an extremely dirty state, I can not say that about an AR rifle.


Right on Bro. I have had extensive use of both rifles in all condition in NA, Europe, and Central America and will pick the HK-91 (despite its flaws in weight, trigger, etc) every time for survival or war conditions.

Not many weapons perform as the HK series do.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:24:23 PM EDT
Keep the HK and get an AR10 when you can afford it. The HK is going up in value all of the time at a much faster rate than the AR10 will as long as it remains in production.

If you think your HK-91 kicks, go shoot a round or two of sporting clays with an over/under 12 gauge with some of the max load high velocity sporting clays loads.
Link Posted: 4/17/2002 9:39:11 PM EDT

I wish I could afford a pre-ban HK rifle!!


You might also consider something from

www.dsarms.com
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 7:44:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Libertoon:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Tyler, momentary lapse of reason..that's why I came in here to get some sense slapped back into me!

I guess I'll just save the $ and build my M4-Magnum later.

Accuracy, the 91 is great...it's just rowdy as hell to shoot because of that bad-ass 2 pound chunk of German steel they call a bolt carrier banging back and forth in the receiver.

Thanks again all!
QS



Doesn't Buffer Technologies still make a recoil buffer for the HK/G3 type rifles. If they should do you should try it. could help make it more comfortable to shoot.

Cant some FN FAL mags be converted to shoot in the AR-10 rifles.

lib



I wouldn't use one of those..I have an MSG-90 buffer in my stock, and a HK21 recoil spring with HK21 buttpad. It's not abusive, it's just not as nice to shoot as an AR10.

The SR-9 came with the MSG-90 buffer. It's a lot nicer to shoot than the stock 91 buffer.

QS
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 11:23:59 AM EDT
each gun ahs its advantages and downsides. An AR/M16 type is advantageous in that any half-wit can be trained to strip it down to a bare receiver, and rebuild it back into a functioning rifle and in a minimal amount of time.

By and far, the AR-15 is the best .223 out there. As far as .308 goes, there are some very nice foreign .308s including H&Ks and FALs. Personally, I don'y like the charging handle on H&Ks. Whoever came up with the idea of putting it in the gas tube is an idiot. It seems like kinda a long reach. I prefer the FAL charging handle which is much easier to reach while still being on the left side of the receiver so it can be reloaded in a combat situation should the bolt catch fail. Try reloading an AR with broken bolt catch in a combat situation. The charging handle is placed in an area where it is inaccessible.

The FAL might be a good alternative for .308. It is cheaper than an AR-15. As long as you avoid anything made by Century they should be OK. Magazines are also about 1/3 the price of AR-15 Magazines. 30 Rounders are little pricey. But, the 20s are fine. Also, unlike AR Mags., these are well constructed and don't dent by tapping them. AR mags. are flimsy, expensive, and aren't really designed to be disassembled. But, FAL Mags. can be disassembled and reassembled w/o a problem. Also, by using double floorplates, they make it easier to block per hunting regs. In order to block an AR-15 Mag. I had to cut up an expired credit card to use as a second floorplate between the empty shells and spring.

All and all, the AR is the best 5.56x45 (.223) and the FAL is the best reasonably priced 7.62x51 (.308).
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 1:24:58 PM EDT
Um...HKs are RECOIL operated..there is no gas tube.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 3:14:21 PM EDT
Then, what is that Tube protruding from the front of the receiver that the charging handle is installed in ? I'll admit, I am not familiar with the mechanics of H&Ks.
Link Posted: 4/18/2002 5:40:03 PM EDT
It's called a cocking tube. There's nothing in it but a bayonet attachment at the front and the upper part of the bolt carrier that bears against the cocking handle.

Link Posted: 4/19/2002 1:52:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Redmanfms:
Repeat after me:

I WILL NEVER SELL A GUN UNLESS I'M DYING OF STARVATION!!!



You shouldn't sell your gun ESPECIALLY if you are dying of starvation because you can use it to kill food! hacko.gif
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 6:45:57 AM EDT
Depends on what you want. The HK is tough but heavy and expensive. Spare parts aren't as easy to find and they fit you badly. The sights are pretty lousy. Accessories have always been expensive. Check the price of a scope mount. The AR-10 is more accurate and just as reliable in my book. And it's less expensive and has more choices.

I don't see the real HKs being worth the high prices. I guess they do have collectors value though. The workmanship is outstanding.

What you have to watch out for is the remakes being put together now. I've seen models with clunky cast or extruded aluminum receivers that look like logs, sheet metal receivers that are soft and deformed, and cast receivers that are deformed and cheap. If you're going to bother with an HK it should be an original HK or a preban Springfield SAR 8 (not the current logs). I wouldn't buy ANY of the remake rifles over the pre-ban originals.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 7:48:31 AM EDT
Mine is the real McCoy...date code IB (1981 import). It's a really nice rifle...just had a brain fart, that's all.

Link Posted: 4/21/2002 8:15:54 AM EDT
Howdy Quietshtr, I was in your boat about 3 years ago. I had a 91A2 with all of the trinkets, scope mount, extra mags, etc. I did not like that gun. I've got .338's, 7mm mags, .45-70, nothing slapped me like that damn HK. That damn hump and the recoil operated action slapped the crap out my face. Anyway, either due to that fact or another, I could not shoot it very well. Then, I see a AR-10T with the Lothar Walther BBl...drool/wipe. I sold that HK and with the funds got the -10T, scope mount, detach carry handle, front sight, 5 mags and a pelican case. I put a 4.5x15 LRT with Mil-dot on it and went from getting bitch-slapped and 3" groups from the fritz rifle to a 1/2 inch sweetheart. I've never had one Iota of sellers (or Buyers) remorse. FWIW, Gary P.S. we won't even go into the brass mauling tendencies of the HK (even with a port buffer).
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 11:43:06 AM EDT
The HK 91 and 93 are not recoil operated. They are 'delayed roller blowback' with the locking rollers held by recesses in the barrel until pressure drops to a safe level. The roller system then retracts and allows the bolt to move to the rear to initiate another firing cycle. JarheadGunner.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 2:56:02 PM EDT
Man, at least you people even have the option of keeping an HK91 or buying an AR-10. Here in PRK, all i get is a ruger or M1a. Sigh..
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:02:07 PM EDT
Buy a FAL, the gun shoots great, mags are cheap and with the surplus of parts out there cheap to fix as well.

You cant go wrong with a FAL.
Link Posted: 4/21/2002 3:03:01 PM EDT
Ok JHG, you got me on semantics, if not manual, gas operated- direct impingement or tappet/ Op rod, recoil or blowback, then delayed roller blowback..either way I didn't like the HK and I'm happy to be rid of it.
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