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Posted: 3/26/2005 2:14:21 PM EDT
Anyone have any pics, links, or information about the civilian version? What do y'all think about it? Good, Bad, fugly.....???
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 2:21:50 PM EDT
It's coming out so late nobody is going to have money for one
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 2:46:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2005 2:48:47 PM EDT by Killbot]
Google it, and change the black to dark green in your mind.



The F2000 (or FS2000 for the civilian market IIRC) is the green one.
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 2:52:28 PM EDT
You're right, it'd look WAAAY better in black. What accessories will be available for it? Does anyone know. I've googled it, and can't find any good info about the civilian version, just various pictures. And when is it scheduled to be available to the public? The P90 looks pretty good too.
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 3:15:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/26/2005 3:15:28 PM EDT by DmL5]

Originally Posted By Musashi51:
You're right, it'd look WAAAY better in black. What accessories will be available for it? Does anyone know. I've googled it, and can't find any good info about the civilian version, just various pictures. And when is it scheduled to be available to the public? The P90 looks pretty good too.



PS-90 Sept.-Oct. '05
FS-2000 Oct.-Nov.'05


Found in this 15-page thread.
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 10:18:49 PM EDT
I really hope that the flashlight and laser foregrips will be avalible.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 6:48:24 AM EDT
Flashlight and Laser foregrips?? Do you have any pictures of these?? I haven't seen any sort of accessories for the F2000, the military or civilian model.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 7:28:41 AM EDT


The foregrip is interchangable as is the top rail for the optics. I also hope that the optic comes with it.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 1:09:58 PM EDT
Wow! Thanks Armed_Scientist!! I've never seen these before. Those are awesome. It'd be nice if someone would make a foregrip with the light and laser, instead of just one or the other.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 1:38:22 PM EDT
I'm sure knights will make a tri rail system for it before too long.

and I wouldnt hold out on those optics as they are supposed to be an integrated sight that uses a laser rangefinder and automatically sets the reticle for range. if they do bring it in I fully expect that to run well over $4000
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 2:17:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Slow5Series:
I'm sure knights will make a tri rail system for it before too long.

and I wouldnt hold out on those optics as they are supposed to be an integrated sight that uses a laser rangefinder and automatically sets the reticle for range. if they do bring it in I fully expect that to run well over $4000



Well the bigger optic is the 'targeting' computer that has an integrated range finder that compensates for range, temprature, and wind. That is a $3000 dollar option on the military/LE models. The smaller optic is either a 1.5 or 2x optic similar to the integrated sight on the Steyr AUG. Can't remember the specifics for it right now.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 2:19:05 PM EDT
Hmm looks like if I get one it will be getting the krylon touch.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 2:26:26 PM EDT
Does anyone have any pics of the FS2000 and an M4 side by side? I'm just curious to see if the bullpup design is all it's cracked up to be. It looks like it's the same length as a M4.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 2:32:12 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure it's pretty much the same length as an M4, the main advantage is a longer barrle in the same overall length
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 2:39:13 PM EDT
Oh, I see. That makes sense.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 2:36:11 AM EDT
There was an article on the F2000 in Shotgun News awhile back, and the FN was criticized for the barrel length of the F2000. I believe it was 15.75 inches. So the civilian legal F2000 will have a longer barrel. Peter Kokalis was the author of the article and felt that FN didn't take advantage of the bullpup's main advantage-short length with a longer barrel. ARKAR
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 6:00:54 AM EDT
F2000 is exactly the same length as an 11.5" carbine with stock collapsed. The F2000 has a 16" barrel however and the stock does not need to be extended for any reason.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 1:10:23 PM EDT
If the F2000 has a 16'' barrel, and is the same size as an 11.5'' carbine with collapsed stock, then wouldn't that make it more accurate than the AR, as well as take advantage of the bullpup design?
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 1:25:06 PM EDT
I like it because I am a left-eye dominant shooter with long guns. No more brass flying out in front of my face.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 6:30:00 PM EDT
I think that Peter Kokalis was making a different point. He believes that the bullpup design should incorporate the 20" barrel in a package the size of the M4 carbine, so that it optimizes velocity to retain the effectiveness of the 5.56 round. Here's part of the article: "A bullpup envelope provides an opportunity to employ a 20-inch barrel--which maximizes the 5.56x45mm bullet's wound ballistics potential--and still end up with an overall length that will provide the compactness demanded by modern military organizations. In its rifle configuration, the Steyr AUG has a barrel length of 20 inches. Unfortunately, FN has chosen initially to offer the F2000 with a barrel length of only 15.75 inches(400mm). This is not much better than that of the M4. However, this is easy enough to correct and hopefully other barrel lengths will be offered as options."

He suggested that it would be more advantageous to offer the weapon the same length as the M4 and have the same ballistics of the 20" barrel rifle.

With the stock extended the M4 is about 33" in length. The F2000, with 15.75 inch barrel is about 27.2 inches. So the addition of 6 more inches of barrel would make it about the same length as the M4 carbine(with stock extended)and the F2000 would have the 20 inch barrel-which would prove very much an advantage. ARKAR
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 12:59:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Musashi51:
If the F2000 has a 16'' barrel, and is the same size as an 11.5'' carbine with collapsed stock, then wouldn't that make it more accurate than the AR, as well as take advantage of the bullpup design?



Since when does barrel length equate to accuracy?
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 2:40:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Musashi51:
Does anyone have any pics of the FS2000 and an M4 side by side? I'm just curious to see if the bullpup design is all it's cracked up to be. It looks like it's the same length as a M4.



Its the same lenght as an MP5 A2 or 27.2" LONG
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 2:51:53 PM EDT
Barrel lenght is important in the fact that the faster a specific round flies, say a Hornady TAP 55gr., the better it performs when it hits soft tissue. So, a .223 with a 11.5" would tend to have a reduced velocity as compared to a F2000 with a 16" barrel. That means that a weapon with a longer barrel will tend to allow its ammo to perform better. An example is soldiers using 14.5" barrel M-4's are claiming that the M855 "just goes through BG's, but the soldiers using the A-2 and A-4 weapons with 20" barrels don't seem to have the same complaint. This is because the FN designed M855 62gr. bullet is designed to tumble in soft tissue but at a certain velocity which is achieved out of a 20" barrel.

Basically the M855 was designed to work out of a longer barrel than 14.5". It is also interesting to note that FN produces the M-16 A-2 and A-4 rifles for the US Military!
Link Posted: 3/31/2005 4:00:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fnman:
Barrel lenght is important in the fact that the faster a specific round flies, say a Hornady TAP 55gr., the better it performs when it hits soft tissue. So, a .223 with a 11.5" would tend to have a reduced velocity as compared to a F2000 with a 16" barrel. That means that a weapon with a longer barrel will tend to allow its ammo to perform better. An example is soldiers using 14.5" barrel M-4's are claiming that the M855 "just goes through BG's, but the soldiers using the A-2 and A-4 weapons with 20" barrels don't seem to have the same complaint. This is because the FN designed M855 62gr. bullet is designed to tumble in soft tissue but at a certain velocity which is achieved out of a 20" barrel.

Basically the M855 was designed to work out of a longer barrel than 14.5". It is also interesting to note that FN produces the M-16 A-2 and A-4 rifles for the US Military!



The bullet is not designed to tumble, it does so because of the laws of physics. What gives the 5.56 such effective killing power is not that it tumbles but that it fragments as a result of tumbling. However, this only occurs at the higher end of the velocity realm for M193 and M855. If the velocity is too low then reliable fragmentation will not be achieved.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 10:51:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:

Originally Posted By fnman:
Barrel lenght is important in the fact that the faster a specific round flies, say a Hornady TAP 55gr., the better it performs when it hits soft tissue. So, a .223 with a 11.5" would tend to have a reduced velocity as compared to a F2000 with a 16" barrel. That means that a weapon with a longer barrel will tend to allow its ammo to perform better. An example is soldiers using 14.5" barrel M-4's are claiming that the M855 "just goes through BG's, but the soldiers using the A-2 and A-4 weapons with 20" barrels don't seem to have the same complaint. This is because the FN designed M855 62gr. bullet is designed to tumble in soft tissue but at a certain velocity which is achieved out of a 20" barrel.

Basically the M855 was designed to work out of a longer barrel than 14.5". It is also interesting to note that FN produces the M-16 A-2 and A-4 rifles for the US Military!



The bullet is not designed to tumble, it does so because of the laws of physics. What gives the 5.56 such effective killing power is not that it tumbles but that it fragments as a result of tumbling. However, this only occurs at the higher end of the velocity realm for M193 and M855. If the velocity is too low then reliable fragmentation will not be achieved.



I have to disagree with you, the SS109 or M855 does not come apart. It is a steel jacketed, lead core round with a tungsten carbide penetrator in the tip, very similar to a SS190 5.7x28mm round except the 5.7 has a aluminum core. It was designed by FN to upset or "tumble" with the bullet staying intact.(really it only turns over once) The M193 does come apart, just as you say. The M855 does not.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 10:59:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:
The bullet is not designed to tumble, it does so because of the laws of physics.



All "spitzer" style bullets are designed to tumble. This was one of the prime motivations for switching from the older ball round designs of the 19th century. Nothing new here.
Link Posted: 4/1/2005 12:22:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fnman:

Originally Posted By 00_buckshot:

Originally Posted By fnman:
Barrel lenght is important in the fact that the faster a specific round flies, say a Hornady TAP 55gr., the better it performs when it hits soft tissue. So, a .223 with a 11.5" would tend to have a reduced velocity as compared to a F2000 with a 16" barrel. That means that a weapon with a longer barrel will tend to allow its ammo to perform better. An example is soldiers using 14.5" barrel M-4's are claiming that the M855 "just goes through BG's, but the soldiers using the A-2 and A-4 weapons with 20" barrels don't seem to have the same complaint. This is because the FN designed M855 62gr. bullet is designed to tumble in soft tissue but at a certain velocity which is achieved out of a 20" barrel.

Basically the M855 was designed to work out of a longer barrel than 14.5". It is also interesting to note that FN produces the M-16 A-2 and A-4 rifles for the US Military!



The bullet is not designed to tumble, it does so because of the laws of physics. What gives the 5.56 such effective killing power is not that it tumbles but that it fragments as a result of tumbling. However, this only occurs at the higher end of the velocity realm for M193 and M855. If the velocity is too low then reliable fragmentation will not be achieved.



I have to disagree with you, the SS109 or M855 does not come apart. It is a steel jacketed, lead core round with a tungsten carbide penetrator in the tip, very similar to a SS190 5.7x28mm round except the 5.7 has a aluminum core. It was designed by FN to upset or "tumble" with the bullet staying intact.(really it only turns over once) The M193 does come apart, just as you say. The M855 does not.



The M855 (SS109) will most certainly fragment. It doesn't have a steel jacket either. It has a copper jacket with a steel, not tungsten, penetrator tip with the rest of the core being lead.
Link Posted: 4/16/2005 5:46:22 PM EDT
I just handled a civi PS 90 and F2000 and the NRA show in Houston today. Both had green stocks. The FN rep I spoke with said it would be suggested retail of $1400 for the PS 90 and $1700 for the F 2000. Both are very sweet. F2000 comes with picitanny rail system for mounting whatever site you want, and the PS 90 comes with integral site or picitanny rail. Both are scheduled to be out October of this year.
Link Posted: 4/16/2005 5:54:40 PM EDT
But it's still not an AUG.
Link Posted: 4/16/2005 6:04:18 PM EDT
Thanks cclacy. I plan on getting an FS2000 just as soon as I can get my hands on one. Did the model of FS2000 you looked at have an adjustable stock? Just curious, I haven't seen one myself.
Link Posted: 4/16/2005 6:11:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 5:02:16 AM EDT
I meant that I handn't seen one with an adjustable stock, not that I hadn't seen the F2000, lol. I should think about what I typing before I do so.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 5:22:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2005 5:58:31 AM EDT by FAST996]
I'll take the Aug over the FS2000 .IMHO it is truely a modular bulpup design having a choice of many barrel lengths 14,16,20, and a 24H bar and can be requisitioned as a .223 or 9MM subgun.
With many accesories including the M203 40MM GL.It is currently in use by many armies around the world . In it's 4th generation model the A4 developed by ADI in Australia and A3 BY Steyr
Maylasia. Could easily be converted to the 6.8spc with a rebarrel and openining of the bolt face along with a gas valve modification.The A3 will probobly be at the Army rifle trials in July as Steyr
has been invited to participate competing with FN,HK,COLT ect.All in all a great weapons system
and rated as the best bullpub design ever.

www.adi-limited.com/video/steyr.mpg


http://home.att.net/~fast996/steyr_rifle2.jpg
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 6:52:52 AM EDT
I still prefer the FS2000
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 7:36:24 AM EDT
Mushashi51, the one I saw did not have an adjustable stock. I don't think there are any plans for one either. I wouldn't think the design would really need one though. It felt quite comfortable to me how it was. Fast996, I agree with you that the Aug is an awesome weapon. I own a black 16" Semi version and wouldn't trade it for the world. The F2000, though is now at the top of my wish list and something I'll have to add to my collection. I'd call it an Aug with 21st Century technology. It's supposed to be quite modular itself. That forearm section is supposed to be removable so accessories and verticle forearm grips can be added. Also, the ejection port is way up front on the weapon so a lefty can shoot it without any modifications like are necessary with the Aug. Again, the Aug is a fine weapon. I wouldn't want to have to choose between the two. I just plan to have both.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 8:03:05 AM EDT
I would take both...
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 8:17:01 AM EDT
I handled the FN2000 at the NRA show and I want one. Its nice. Handles well and should be a good shooter.

The only critiscism is that it will be almost impossible to put a suppressor on it due tot he permanently mounted flash hider that is not NATO spec.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 8:41:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:

The only critiscism is that it will be almost impossible to put a suppressor on it due tot he permanently mounted flash hider that is not NATO spec.




That's why god made ADCO firearms and others.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 8:47:54 AM EDT
Thanks cclacy.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 4:13:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FAST996:
I'll take the Aug over the FS2000 .IMHO it is truely a modular bulpup design having a choice of many barrel lengths 14,16,20, and a 24H bar and can be requisitioned as a .223 or 9MM subgun.
With many accesories including the M203 40MM GL.It is currently in use by many armies around the world . In it's 4th generation model the A4 developed by ADI in Australia and A3 BY Steyr
Maylasia. Could easily be converted to the 6.8spc with a rebarrel and openining of the bolt face along with a gas valve modification.The A3 will probobly be at the Army rifle trials in July as Steyr
has been invited to participate competing with FN,HK,COLT ect.All in all a great weapons system
and rated as the best bullpub design ever.

www.adi-limited.com/video/steyr.mpg


home.att.net/~fast996/steyr_rifle2.jpg



I'll second that, and go further to state that although I LOVE the AR platform, and I'm sure the F2000 will be a success, if forced to take one rifle/carbine for utility/combat/etc., I would take an AUG all day long over anything else. Having put quite a few variants, both in 5.56 and 7.62mm, through their paces, I've experienced nothing but exceptional performance from the AUG system, with narry a single hiccup. Just my .02, YMMV
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 4:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cloak-n-carbine:
I'll second that, and go further to state that although I LOVE the AR platform, and I'm sure the F2000 will be a success, if forced to take one rifle/carbine for utility/combat/etc., I would take an AUG all day long over anything else. Having put quite a few variants, both in 5.56 and 7.62mm, through their paces, I've experienced nothing but exceptional performance from the AUG system, with narry a single hiccup. Just my .02, YMMV


Did you try shooting it from the weak side shoulder?
How quick were those mag changes?

I like the AUG, but I'd really rather not go into combat with a bull pup.
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 4:56:36 PM EDT
I noticed that RSR had these listed in their 2005 dealer catalog.

Can these guns be adapted for lefties or are they right hand only?
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 5:42:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By drobs:
I noticed that RSR had these listed in their 2005 dealer catalog.

Can these guns be adapted for lefties or are they right hand only?



LOL...that's the great thing about the FN2k, it has a forward ejection system so it's fully ambi!
Link Posted: 4/17/2005 6:50:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2005 6:51:44 PM EDT by SC-Texas]
Traditional fast style mag changes are going to me impossible with this weapon.

The mag release is back where the magazine inserts intot he weapon. Thus, you cannot release the empty mag with one hand while the other is grabbing the loaded mag.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 4:24:10 AM EDT
Stolen from another poster on AR discussions:


I've already told my "dealer" to put my name in the first one he gets.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 9:37:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Traditional fast style mag changes are going to me impossible with this weapon.

The mag release is back where the magazine inserts intot he weapon. Thus, you cannot release the empty mag with one hand while the other is grabbing the loaded mag.




well no, you do it the way the guys in the Military are trained to: grab your mag and remove it from the weapon, drop it in your drop pouch, grab new mag, insert mag in weapon. you dont lose your mags this way.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 10:14:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Traditional fast style mag changes are going to me impossible with this weapon.

The mag release is back where the magazine inserts intot he weapon. Thus, you cannot release the empty mag with one hand while the other is grabbing the loaded mag.




well no, you do it the way the guys in the Military are trained to: grab your mag and remove it from the weapon, drop it in your drop pouch, grab new mag, insert mag in weapon. you dont lose your mags this way.



The lousy placement of the mag release button make it a 2-handed affair, unless it's a soft catch. I remember trying to do 1-handed mag changes w/ the AUG, & it was practically a no-can-do. Definitely not ideal for fast mag changes. The Izzy Tavor mag release lever addresses this problem appropriately. The P90's receiver-top mounted mag will be easier to swap than this.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 1:57:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stryfe:

Originally Posted By cloak-n-carbine:
I'll second that, and go further to state that although I LOVE the AR platform, and I'm sure the F2000 will be a success, if forced to take one rifle/carbine for utility/combat/etc., I would take an AUG all day long over anything else. Having put quite a few variants, both in 5.56 and 7.62mm, through their paces, I've experienced nothing but exceptional performance from the AUG system, with narry a single hiccup. Just my .02, YMMV


Did you try shooting it from the weak side shoulder?
How quick were those mag changes?

I like the AUG, but I'd really rather not go into combat with a bull pup.



Mag changes are just as quick as any other mag fed weapon. Perhaps this is because I have practiced this and have developed my own style of using my thumb to dump a mag then insert a fresh one (hard to explain, guess you'd have to see it to understand it). As far as weak side shoulder shooting, no need to in my opinion. I know where you're going to go with this, and I've heard all the hypotheticals. Once again, I've developed my own style (also taught by AUG trainer Giles Stock from Arizona), and there is more than one way to skin a cat.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 8:14:22 PM EDT
I didn't mean for it to sound like a flame, if it did.
It's just that I feel there are practical limits to the bull pup design.
Link Posted: 4/18/2005 8:58:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FAST996:
I'll take the Aug over the FS2000 .IMHO it is truely a modular bulpup design having a choice of many barrel lengths 14,16,20, and a 24H bar and can be requisitioned as a .223 or 9MM subgun.
With many accesories including the M203 40MM GL.It is currently in use by many armies around the world . In it's 4th generation model the A4 developed by ADI in Australia and A3 BY Steyr
Maylasia. Could easily be converted to the 6.8spc with a rebarrel and openining of the bolt face along with a gas valve modification.The A3 will probobly be at the Army rifle trials in July as Steyr
has been invited to participate competing with FN,HK,COLT ect.All in all a great weapons system
and rated as the best bullpub design ever.

www.adi-limited.com/video/steyr.mpg


home.att.net/~fast996/steyr_rifle2.jpg



+1

Link Posted: 4/18/2005 9:01:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
Traditional fast style mag changes are going to me impossible with this weapon.

The mag release is back where the magazine inserts intot he weapon. Thus, you cannot release the empty mag with one hand while the other is grabbing the loaded mag.




well no, you do it the way the guys in the Military are trained to: grab your mag and remove it from the weapon, drop it in your drop pouch, grab new mag, insert mag in weapon. you dont lose your mags this way.



The lousy placement of the mag release button make it a 2-handed affair, unless it's a soft catch. I remember trying to do 1-handed mag changes w/ the AUG, & it was practically a no-can-do. Definitely not ideal for fast mag changes. The Izzy Tavor mag release lever addresses this problem appropriately. The P90's receiver-top mounted mag will be easier to swap than this.



You CAN do 1 handed changes in the AUG and with practice is not that slow. All of it's +s more than outway this so-so negative. Even that "negative" is more negated by the fact that if you use the 42rd mags you change them less often. And yes, I have an AUG, I know of what I speak.
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