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Do unwieldy beltfeds become boring to shoot? (Page 2 of 2)
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Originally Posted By Aimless: What do you think about maintenance and replacement parts on heavy machine guns? I've been at shoots where the owners struggled to keep some of them running. That seems like almost any machine gun at every shoot. 1. Numerous guns are conversions. Those conversions often weren’t done right or use conversion parts which were never intended to be part of a factory gun. Some guns weren’t intended to be machine guns in the first place and/or weren’t made with parts made for full auto fire. Examples: Any conversion semi to full. AR15 to M16 DIAS or LL. HK conversions. Uzi bolt conversions using a welded semi bolt and striker. The Voere 2005 and 1911 were never intended to be a MG, but transferables are out there. 2. The receiver and/or other parts are rewelds, reconstituted demil, parts which were originally scrapped as out of spec and which are now getting pressed into service, just wrong to begin with, etc. Examples: The M60 if not made by Maremont or RIA. So many were cobbled together from demil and out of spec parts. Reweld trunnions and rails are very common. Also, I met the SOT who bought ALL of the factory Maremont guns when they got released. (I saw photographs of all the guns stacked up in his store.) They were released because they were ALL out of spec. He repaired each one by hogging out a hunk of 2x4 he found on the side of the road, stripping each gun, and beating the wood into the receiver with a sledge hammer to bend it back in shape. This SOT is still alive today. The stainless M16 lowers from Group Industries were all out of spec. All “new” manufacture (1970s and 1980s) Auto Ordnance 1928 TSMGs came out of spec from the factory. Most Olympic Arms guns were out of spec. Again, welded semi Uzi bolts and strikers to make registered bolts. 3. The gun was cranked out in a rush in the days before the door slammed shut, meaning there was little quality control. Or it wasn’t a high quality item in the first place. Or maybe it was made wrong in the first place, which is how it was snuck home from the factory scrap pile in a lunchbox over time, amnestied, cooked up by some C2 who had more dreams than knowledge, etc. Or some armorer at its last military home was more concerned getting it “fixed” in a rush vs doing it right Example: Most Mac SMGs were cranked out FAST in 1986. Lunchbox stories accompanied with amnesty papers from the few old timers who remain are common. Good guns were watched while the scrap piles were not. Many side plates cranked out just before 05/19/1986 weren’t perfect. Ask any military man about ordnance corps during peacetime on a Friday afternoon. 4. Ammo isn’t cheap, so owners economize by buying “interesting” remanufactured loads, gun show reloads, questionable milsurp, or even good stuff that’s discounted because it went through something. (Freshwater and saltwater flood ammo, sat in a warehouse in some third world hole where temps soared above 125 indoors for decades, etc.) Examples: Dominican Republic BMG, Indian .308, A-MERC ammo… Too many to cite. 5. The youngest machine gun will be 39 just over two weeks today. Even if it was a quality factory gun, many have been rode hard and put up wet by four or more decades of unknowledgeable civilian owners. Lack of cleaning, pitting from corrosive ammo, good parts which got enough honest wear over time to wear out, outright abuse… Or the RR got damaged from shooting with dry rotted buffers, pin holes egging, etc., and either needs repair or wasn’t repaired right. And spare parts aren’t as common as they were, if they were ever common in the first place. The barrel import ban has created major headaches, including remanufactured worn barrels, questionable US-made barrels, mix-masters, etc. Or you’ve got a foreign, WW1 gun, or just something which wasn’t common to begin with. Plus many guns and spare parts have been out of production for decades. And it’s difficult enough for a machinist to recreate a century-old part. Now do it based off of a seriously worn or damaged part with no heat treat into, metallurgy, no clue what a new correct part looked like, the machinist doesn’t understand the fill function (which would help them remake the part), etc. Or you’re dealing with a hand-fit manufactured gun versus standardization of parts, so there’s no guarantee parts even one S/N off will swap. Examples: Japanese MGs are notorious for being hand-fit. The MG-34 is a work of art but not mass production. Most pre-WW2 guns are all hand-fit. Barrels? Look at the cost today vs preban. Parts kits prices. Parts kit availability. 6. The mags and links are worn out, were out of spec from the factory, or they’re using aftermarket or conversion mags or links. Examples: Too numerous to cite. Also, consider the cloth belt guys. Japanese MGs shooters have an especially tough time with mags and will cobble together mags from surplus MG13 mags. Now think of all the questionable brands of aftermarket mags out there. 7. The owner just doesn’t know what they’re doing at the shoot and accidentally does something to make the gun choke. Examples: Attend any shoot popular with hedge fund, tech, etc., bros. BONUS: Tolerance stacking is real. You’ve got a belt or mag which isn’t perfect or may be aftermarket. The bolt got chipped or was a semi bolt, so it was welded up to “make it right.” The chamber has some pits after the gun spun too much lead with corrosive primers at Knob Creek in ‘89, it rained, and it took two days for the then-owner to get it home for cleaning. Any one issue could create a hiccup. All together, it gives an otherwise reliable gun an awful name. Beltfeds are notorious because there’s more to go wrong and more moving parts. An Uzi (still subject to 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7) has fewer moving parts than a 1919 (subject to all seven). And a 1919 is one of the more reliable guns out there. But that gets way worse when you change it from a 1919 to an 08/15 or something more obscure. |
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-Notcalifornialegal
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Originally Posted By prebans: That seems like almost any machine gun at every shoot. 1. Numerous guns are conversions. Many times, those conversions weren’t done right or use conversion parts which were never intended to be part of a factory gun. 2. The receiver and/or other parts are rewelds, reconstituted demil, parts which were originally scrapped as out of spec and which are now getting pressed into service, just wrong to begin with, etc. 3. The gun was cranked out in a rush in the days before the door slammed shut, meaning there was little quality control. Or it wasn’t a high quality item in the first place. Or maybe it was made wrong in the first place, which is how it was snuck home from the factory scrap pile in a lunchbox over time, amnestied, cooked up by some C2 who had more dreams than knowledge, etc. Or some armorer at its last military home was more concerned getting it “fixed” in a rush vs doing it right 4. Ammo isn’t cheap, so owners economize by buying “interesting” remanufactured loads, gun show reloads, questionable milsurp, or even good stuff that’s discounted because it went through something. (Freshwater and saltwater flood ammo, sat in a warehouse in some third world hole where temps soared above 125 indoors for decades, etc.) 5. The youngest machine gun will be 39 just over two weeks today. Even if it was a quality factory gun, many have been rode hard and put up wet by almost four decades of unknowledgeable civilian owners. Lack of cleaning, pitting from corrosive ammo, good parts which got enough honest wear over time to wear out, outright abuse… Or the RR got damaged from shooting with dry rotted buffers, pin holes egging, etc., and either needs repair or wasn’t repaired right. And spare parts aren’t as common as they were, if they were ever common in the first place. The barrel import ban has created major headaches, including remanufactured worn barrels, questionable US-made barrels, mix-masters, etc. Or you’ve got a Japanese gun, a WW1 era gun, or just something which wasn’t common to begin with. And it’s difficult enough for a machinist to recreate a century-old part. Now do it based off of a seriously worn or damaged part with no heat treat into, metallurgy, no clue what a new correct part looked like, the machinist doesn’t understand the fill function (which would help them remake the part), etc. Or you’re dealing with a hand-fit manufactured gun versus standardization of parts, so there’s no guarantee parts even one S/N off will swap. 6. The mags and links are worn out, we’re out of spec from the factory, or they’re using aftermarket or conversion mags or links. 7. The owner just doesn’t know what they’re doing at the shoot and accidentally does something to make the gun choke. BONUS: Tolerance stacking is real. You’ve got a belt or mag which isn’t perfect or may be aftermarket. The bolt got chipped or was a semi bolt, so it was welded up to “make it right.” The chamber has some pits after the gun spun too much lead with corrosive primers at Knob Creek in ‘89, it rained, and it took two days for the then-owner to get it home for cleaning. Any one issue could create a hiccup. All together, it gives an otherwise reliable gun an awful name. Beltfeds are notorious because there’s more to go wrong and more moving parts. An Uzi (still subject to 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7) has fewer moving parts than a 1919 (subject to all seven). And a 1919 is one of the more reliable guns out there. But that gets way worse when you change it from a 1919 to an 08/15 or something more obscure. Very well said. Excellent synopsis. |
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Originally Posted By JoshNC: Very well said. Excellent synopsis. If you want to know the machine gun world’s future, look to the classic car market. It started out as a redneck hillbilly thing to do. Then people noticed those old cars were getting hard to find and saw how much fun the rednecks were having. They got into it too. Then more saw and money got into it. Prices went up as word spread. The actual knowledgeable people couldn’t afford to get into their own hobby any more, so they got stuck with what they had or sold out. That loss of institutional knowledge led to a higher demand for competent mechanics, which let in many frauds and grifters too. Eventually all new blood got priced out and it became an old man’s game of high end auctions, high income earners hoarding vehicles they never drove in garages costing more than most of us earn in a year, and maintenance gets hired out of any is done at all. Now some prices are falling as that generation dies. (A ‘57 Chevy means more to someone from the Baby Boom generation than any other. Yeah, it’s still cool. But the nostalgia factor dies with the Boomer.) Eventually we’ll see a renewal as more young blood can afford things again. We are in the 1990s of the classic car world. That’s when the ads in motorcycle magazines went from coke spoons to decorative commemorative 50 states of spoons, partying and pussy went to medications to satisfy your wife, and relaxed waistline pants replaced t-shirts with “amusing” slogans. |
“Don't post anything here or send anything you aren't willing to defend in court.”
-Notcalifornialegal
-Notcalifornialegal
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Originally Posted By jbntex: I primarily shoot mine off a custom mount I built that feeds belted ammo from an ammo can on one side and catches all the links and brass in an ammo can on the other side. I have the same option for my 23E and 1919 as well. Friends of mine run brass link catchers on their shrikes for the same reason. M60 and 23E https://i.imgur.com/6DwuFaV.jpg 1919 setup https://i.imgur.com/gF1IbaU.jpg There was a question about storage and I can fit a bunch of beltfeds into my safes. One of my gun safes right now has a M2HB, 1919A4, a MM21E, MM23E, HK23E, M249, and a Shrike M16 in it along with a bunch of other guns. Personally, I don't think that beltfeds get boring any more than any other machineguns get boring. They all have their pros/cons. Obviously mag fed subguns are a lot easier to take to the range, cheaper to shoot, more places will let you shoot them, etc. However the experience with a large beltfed is different and if you go to bigger machinegun shoots that is where they really shine. Being able to have belts of ammo pre-linked, the ability to swap barrels without cool down, more accurate aimed fire at extended ranges off a tripod along with a T&E mech, etc. If you have a couple rifle caliber mag fed machineguns (M16, etc.) than its a nice variety to have a bigger tripod mounted gun for something different. Most transferable beltfeds with the exception of the Shrike/MCR, most owners are not going to be running around with them and shooting them off the shoulder. Even the lighter 308 air cooled beltfeds like the M60E4 and 21E in my experience are really more than your average middle aged guy is going to be able to hold up and shoot off the shoulder safely at a range, much less run around with it and shoot it safely. These guns still weigh ~25lbs loaded up with an optic and ammo. I am not saying it can't be done and I am still capable of shooing the mid sized 30cal beltfed off the shoulder with a good degree of accuracy but almost none of my other shooting friends can shoulder them up and fire them in a controlled manner. So even those medium sized GPMGs are going to be primarily bipod or tripod shooters for most owners and their friends. Now the M2HB is a whole other deal as its a big commitment to take out as everything on that gun is big and heavy. The gun/receiver, barrel(s), tripod, mount+T&E, ammo, and even 50BMG rated targets, etc. all add up quick. The M2HB is easily hundreds of pounds of gear to take that gun out to the range. However there isn't really a comparable experience to a belt fed 50 either. The primarily limiting factor on how often I shoot the M2 is more of a limitation on places you can safely shoot and to a secondary extent of the $4 a round cost where even a very basic range visit of 250rd is ~$1000 in ammo. https://i.imgur.com/wAC61fB.jpg As always, very well said jbntx. I always enjoy your contributions. |
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Originally Posted By Captain_Buddha: A question on secure storage - for those with belt feds / larger MG's...can / do they easily fit in a safe? Or are they in a place of prominence (ie - living room, the NFA dealer that was my neighbor kept a 1917 on the tripod as the "welcome to my home" greeting / statement piece in his foyer!!) that is secure? Just curious on the best way to safely secure these items. All my stuff resides in a very full safe...I know, buy another / bigger safe LOL!! @captain_buddha I just bought the Costco gun safe after running out of room in my big safe. It’s a whopping 19.5"W x 17.52"D x 55"H. Here’s my M2HB and Vickers. Yes, I had to unscrew the M2HB’s barrel. But there’s room in the center for two barrels or a non-beltfed. So while beltfeds will take up more room than a “normal” gun, here’s proof this small footprint will hold a water cooled and a fifty. (In this photo, the guns are not right up against the safe walls.)  Separately, I am VERY impressed with this little safe. It hits WAY above its price point, and right now it’s on sale for $549. The fit and finish are excellent, fire rating is 1,400 for 60 min, and it’s waterproof for up to a week under 2’ of water. Not pictured is a ridiculous number of internal racks, barrel holders, and shelves made to work and be moved around in the internal slat system. Also not pictured is the included interior lighting and power setup for goldenrods or whatever. It’s not the end-all be-all, but I’ve seen plenty of similar size safes from big name manufacturers with 1,200 degree coverage for 30-45 min, no waterproofing, minimal internal inclusions, no free lighting, and no internal power system for double that price. |
“Don't post anything here or send anything you aren't willing to defend in court.”
-Notcalifornialegal
-Notcalifornialegal
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@prebans - VERY cool! Thank you for the info and picture, that looks like a banging deal on a nice safe - COSTCO always seems to give you more for you many than many other options. I'm at that point where another long gun or two and then it's "time for another safe" - I know, great problem to have, right? I like the internal slat system, very smart. Originally Posted By prebans: @captain_buddha I just bought the Costco gun safe after running out of room in my big safe. It’s a whopping 19.5"W x 17.52"D x 55"H. Here’s my M2HB and Vickers. Yes, I had to unscrew the M2HB’s barrel. But there’s room in the center for two barrels or a non-beltfed. So while beltfeds will take up more room than a “normal” gun, here’s proof this small footprint will hold a water cooled and a fifty. (In this photo, the guns are not right up against the safe walls.) https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/2594/IMG_7163-3538287.jpg Separately, I am VERY impressed with this little safe. It hits WAY above its price point, and right now it’s on sale for $549. The fit and finish are excellent, fire rating is 1,400 for 60 min, and it’s waterproof for up to a week under 2’ of water. Not pictured is a ridiculous number of internal racks, barrel holders, and shelves made to work and be moved around in the internal slat system. Also not pictured is the included interior lighting and power setup for goldenrods or whatever. It’s not the end-all be-all, but I’ve seen plenty of similar size safes from big name manufacturers with 1,200 degree coverage for 30-45 min, no waterproofing, minimal internal inclusions, no free lighting, and no internal power system for double that price. |
Do unwieldy beltfeds become boring to shoot? (Page 2 of 2)
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