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Posted: 10/27/2013 12:17:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2013 12:20:49 PM EDT by Kali_Refugee]
went to the gunshow today in fredericksburg. Saw a IDF tavor. I have wanted one since the bullpup shoot.$2476.50 out the door. I've seen most places its around $2.6k before taxes shipping etc. did I do well? So happy my IWI baby eagle (aka Jericho) now has a friend.

Another question does anyone make a sling swivel like the one on the aug a3 sf where it is small and rounded so a single point hook fits on it well?
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 12:48:11 PM EDT
I was going to say that you overpaid by about $550;but since you've got the MEPROLIGHT reflex sight, I guess you didn't do too shabby.

Now go shoot it and post pics.
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 12:58:27 PM EDT
Seems like a good deal. I personally would have checked out that optics first to see how I liked it. I will put an Aimpoint PRO on mine when I get it. Under $2500 is a good price with the optic
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 1:13:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2013 1:14:13 PM EDT by Kali_Refugee]
I used one with the same optic at the bullpup shoot on the carbine section of the competition plus I like the appearance of the idf version without the rail better,

I plan on shooting her tomorrow after work. The NRA headquarters is crowded on weekends. It only goes 50 yards I think and no photography inside so ill pull some targets see how it looks afterwards.
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 1:16:39 PM EDT
Very nice. I handled one a couple weeks ago and really liked it. It is defiantly on my short list of potential future guns.
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 2:26:52 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 3:32:32 PM EDT
Go to amazon for the QD mount.
Link Posted: 10/27/2013 6:29:08 PM EDT
You got a pretty good deal.

Link Posted: 10/28/2013 5:31:49 AM EDT
Rifle is sweet!  Shoot me a PM if you want to get rid of the optic! :)
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 4:14:48 PM EDT
Ok deal with the meprolight.
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 6:51:39 PM EDT
Very nice rifle. I fondled a base model (no optic) on saturday at funshop  

range report please....h
Link Posted: 10/28/2013 6:59:01 PM EDT
i am not a fan of the optic, but you did well on value. Nice bang stick sir
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:12:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 7:47:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 7:53:24 AM EDT by Kali_Refugee]
Im a day late on my range write up was just feeling tired. I used to own a MSAR that performed flawlessly and had a eotech on it. I sold it to a friend so I still see her occasionally and will compare the two rifles. I'm going to break this into two posts because it will probably get long as well and I still need to upload the target pictures..

FIRST ERGOS: I much prefer the Tavor ergonomics to the AUG. Of course ergos are subjective so your mileage may vary.
* I always thought vertical fore grips looked cool but after I got the MSAR I quickly fell out of love the broom handle grip is nice for very short range speed but I have a hard time stabilizing with it for distance. A standard horizontal forearms I feel is just as fast and doesn't have that issue. My vfg spent most of its time in the folded position as a poor mans forearm, her new owner feels the same way and does the same thing. (I'm a former Army 11b then spent a very short time as a civilian police officer, and my shooting buddies are former marine 0311s we worked together as tour guides at the pentagon I know WTF ) I talked one of my old marine buddies to come to the bullpup shoot with me this year. He shot the styer AUG A3 and Tavor. When asked about which he liked better it was basically the same story from him. I also like how you can grab the forearm of the tavor and rest your forearm on the trigger guard area it makes for some steady offhand shooting.

* I like the tavors safety selector a lot better than the AUGs. Being from the communist republic of California prior to my army days the only semi auto rifles I shot were .22lrs. So the first centerfire semi rifle I became familiar with is the M16a4. I am accustomed to its safety switch and find it faster more positive and I think easier to use in a stressful environment than a AUGs cross bolt. I know just killing paper monsters at the range I had times where I would attempt to pull the trigger with the MSAR and feel like a dumbie for having the safety on. That just isn't a issue with the tavor my thumb is pre prgramed to feel where that switch is and know the rifles status upon grasping the pistol grip.

* The charging handle on the tavor wins by a mile. I think the charging handle is the most outdated and obnoxious part of a otherwise very nice design. It might have been nice for the A1s back with a integral scope I dunno never handled one of those but with rails it sucks for multiple reasons. One using it as a bolt hold open it practically rests on the rail. 2: try using a stock one with a eotech might want to pack some band aids. I dont like how you have a magazine based hold open and a charging handle hold open on augs either. Once again I got very familiar with the ar system of hold it funny pull charging handle and hold the release, and while its trickyer than the augs slot, 1 it means you only have to remember one and two you don't have to fidget to get the dam thing up against a rail. Now the manticore arms and other charging handles relieve this issue toa  great extend but with the tavor they are non existent from the get go. Plus it has one simple bolt hold open to remember when you are having a brain fart.

* Mag changes. Tavor wins again I like how I just reach for the mag pull the trigger of the mag release and yank the mag out to stash it wherever (I don't like the call of duty drop mags speed load stuff and always retain them I just imagine my drill Sgt's yelling about how your rifle is a single if you get resupplied and lost all your mags whenever I think about doing that [BD Except pistols we did that all the time in police academy with glocks) After you snap a new mag in just raise the back of your hand to trip the bolt release and good to go. Aug mag changes are quick and A3/msars witht he bolt release on the side are dam near as fast so its not a huge advantage.

* Trigger pull. AUG wins. It has a nicer trigger and their are multiple aftermarket options from the neu trigger to the ratworks pack. The tavors trigger out of box was god awful. It has gotten better after the 120 or so rounds I put through it yesterday but it is definitely a combat rifle trigger. You get used to it and hopefully someone comes out with some stuff to make it better but for now the AUG is the winner hands down in this section.

TAKE DOWN: Both are easy as hell. The Aug carrier stays cleaner because the gas port and piston are seperated from it. They are connected on the tavor like a m240, m249, or ak. But it is still clean.

Now for some pictures showing how small the tavor is compared to my other rifles. Next post I'll stop running at the mouth like a Nutting fancy video and get to shooting.

Top to bottom. PTR 91 GI, My home built retro m16a1ish clone, mforgery, Tavor.

EDIT: I had a pic of the m4 with the stock fully extended it is not much shorter than the a1 clone but I guess it didn't upload it last time and don't have my phone cable handy
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:04:16 AM EDT
Congrats on the IDF model. The IDF does have a certain appeal to it that's for sure. The price was not bad, close to retail as most tavors are but not bad.

What are your thoughts on the mepro M21? What reticle is it?
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:46:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2013 5:16:55 PM EDT by Kali_Refugee]
Oh before I forget the guys I bought mine from had one more when I left. You want their number to see if they still have it and at that price pm me I don't want to post it like im advertising or something.

Okay now on to part 2. With it more pictures and hopefully less long windedness so I can go to sleep before working the midnight shift .

Bolt carrier today. I fired around 120 rounds mostly Tula. As you can see the only carbon is up by the piston, the bolt is clean and still has its original lub on it.

SHOOTING: Things I learned A) tula is not very accurate out of it and I miss cheap brass ammo. B)I'm not too sure about the sights reticle. Oh and no malfunctions of any kind (my msar would not cycle reliably with tula on the clean setting until a thousand or so rounds had been fired)

*The m21 reticle on this one is a orange triangle. I liked the red eotechish reticle on the one at the shot better I was more familiar with it and I think I performed better with it (Got the fastest time in the carbine portion with it ) I may need to buy or trade for one of those latter to swap out. But I will try this one out a few more times before I do see if I get better with it. Its not very precise so im not very happy with my groups.

* For over 2 grand it would be nice if the sight and buis were at least mechanically zeroed to be close out of the box. I am glad I started at 15 yards to see if I was on paper. The m21 was just a little left and low. The irons though. Out of the box they looked way too far right to me. They were. I was using one of the big scope zeroing targets with the red diamond in the center with smaller targets in all four corners. At 15 yards aiming center mass with the buis I hit the bottom left target. The windage okay that's easy enough. The front sight post elevation though bothers me. It is a tritium filled post so only one side with the hole on it has the benefit of that feature. It is a 5 position per rotation post similar to a a1 sight. So potentially to get the elevation right you may need to eliminate the night sight component since only one of those positions per rotation makes it available. I forgot my front sight tool so I only managed to adjust its windage. This is the only issue I had with the rifle, while it is a small one i would be lying if I didn't say it made me a little ticked off.
EDIT: VASCAR2 pointed out the front sight can move independently of the elevation adjustment to keep the window pointed the right way. So it is a non issue except the not being at mechanical zero to begin with which is a very small gripe.

Okay here come the pics. As mentioned in the original post no pictures allowed at NRA range so I pulled targets and kept them to take pictures of latter. I did not keep the ones I played around on or zeroing targets.

Ten shots of tula at 25meters (manual says 25 and 250 meters have same elevation and indoor range only goes to 50 yards so I did most of my shooting at 25m. The target is a standard nra 25yard pistol competion target. Not great accuracy but the triangle reticle also isn't a precise target  one either. Shots were taken seated monopoding the pistol grip off a table.

12 shots at 25m off hand releasing the trigger to the point of reset then firing again as fast as possible. One round was just left of the target. Not too bad especially considering the nasty tula gas was rising to my eye pretty bad. (Which is better than the a1 if you don't wear eyepro with it tula throws shit into your eye)

50yard 5 rounds Seated monopodding again. Adjusted windage after this a few clicks

4 shot group the last I did with some brass cased quickly to see how it worked. I might have been fed bulk pack or it was whatever I got from trading 22lr rounds for slugs and 5.56 at the bullpup shoot as it was lose in my ammo can. Which leads me to believe it can perform better with higher quality ammo. Plus my inexperience with the optic doesn't help.

When I get better with it and Im not limited to mostly steel plinking ammo I hope it can do this

Ptr91 sc 20 rounds german surplus before I sold it  25 yards one shot every 2 seconds at 25yards iron sights monopoded off magazine on table.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 8:53:53 AM EDT
It's the orange triangle. Right now im very meh with it. I like the red circle and dot one better. But I'm not completely counting it out yet. It is definitely fast and would probably rock at run and gun stuff. Next time I get a chance to shoot steel Ill see how fast I can run her. It may be a long time Dam you NOVA and your lack of ranges!
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 11:39:57 AM EDT
The Tritium front sight on the Tavor is supposed to be a Meprolight which have 5 notches per revolution.  If you look closely you'll see that the window for the tritium insert will rotate separately from the post.  Sight the rifle in for the proper elevation then only move the window so the tritium is visible to the shooter.   I found a small punch to depress the detent and a handcuff key or heavy paper clip moved the cap with window fairly easily.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:08:24 PM EDT
I think what it comes down to re: the trigger is that a straight pull makes more sense for any bullpup than an arcing pull.  With an arcing pull you've got sliding friction on both ends.

Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:48:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By VASCAR2:
The Tritium front sight on the Tavor is supposed to be a Meprolight which have 5 notches per revolution.  If you look closely you'll see that the window for the tritium insert will rotate separately from the post.  Sight the rifle in for the proper elevation then only move the window so the tritium is visible to the shooter.   I found a small punch to depress the detent and a handcuff key or heavy paper clip moved the cap with window fairly easily.
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Thanks Ill have to play with that I didn't know that and that makes me feel a whole lot better about the front sight.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 12:57:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Smatthew:
I think what it comes down to re: the trigger is that a straight pull makes more sense for any bullpup than an arcing pull.  With an arcing pull you've got sliding friction on both ends.

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I pulled out the trigger pack then pulled the trigger a few times to see how its linkage works compared to the aug I think you have part of it down. On the aug the trigger pushes two metal bars which push in two little slots on the trigger pack and down with the hammer falls, all a straight line of motion. On the Tavor the trigger has a little linkage exactly how it works I dunno its not as easy to see as a AUG but the end result is it pulls a little dongle back there forward. On the trigger pack there is a bit on the lleft side that sticks out that has a recess for said dongle. So instead of straight back pressure you have a linkage that switches your pushing force into a pulling force and probably ads some lbage. Just playing with that bit with my finger trying to trip it took alot of force and didn't budge so I didn't force the issue that's probably the rest of the lbage. However I do like having a metal trigger under my finger and I like the contour of it better than the styer trigger. But for overall better pull AUG is definitely the winner.
Link Posted: 10/29/2013 5:46:37 PM EDT
I'd say you did well. The only one I've seen in person was today and it was $2500 + tax, and tax is around 7-9%.
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