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Posted: 2/14/2013 8:21:41 AM EDT
I'm buying a Saker with my tax money in the next couple weeks. My local shop can get one for just under $1,000 and they say it will take them a month to get it in the shop after I put money down but that's their standard line. I'm not too keen on the idea of taking them at their word only to find out it takes them 3 months to get it and THEN the waiting period begins. They do establish a free trust though.

So how does buying a can online work? What's the best place for me to get it? Can they establish a trust also? Is all the paperwork done by mail? Do they mail the can directly to me when the time comes?
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:34:15 AM EDT
So I've heard that these guys are real great: http://www.major-malfunction.com/

And consider me in on all of your other questions.. as I'd like to know as well.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:41:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 8:46:39 AM EDT by JsARCLIGHT]
I think Major Malfunction no longer sells to the public. Unless he changed his mind again he is now a dealer distributor only now.

Basically the process goes like this:

- Find can in stock at online retailer and "purchase" it.
- Get your local transfer dealer to get in touch with them to get the Form 3 going.
- Wait.
- Wait some more.
- Wait even more (depending on how backed up the NFA branch is your Form 3 could take days or months)
- The Form 3 will be approved and your can will be sent to your local transfer dealer.
- During the wait above you can establish your Trust, form an LLC or do nothing and apply as an individual.
- Once your local dealer has the can he and you will fill out your Form 4 paperwork and mail it in with your $200 fee.
- Wait.
- Continue to wait.
- You might as well find something else to occupy yourself as you are going to be waiting for a while.
- Again depending on NFA branch backlog it will be months before your Form 4 comes back, when it does it goes to your transfer dealer and he calls you to come get your can
- When you pick up your can you fill out a 4473 "for the records and to prove you are the one picking up the can" (they don't actually call it in) and take your can home with you

Estimated time from step one to finish: probably 6 months to a year at this point depending on your NFA examiner.

Edit: I know a lot of people frown on this advice but it sometimes is better to shop around locally and see what the various dealers have in stock, in hand right now and go from there. I know a lot of folks don't like waiting the extra time for a Form 3 to process or they want to save another fifty or hundred bucks on their can. I also know that some folks get dead set on getting a specific can and sometimes the only way to get one is to order it directly from the manufacturer... who may or may not even have any in stock and you may have yet another long wait time waiting for them to build your can.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:41:45 AM EDT
What part of AZ are you in ? I know a local shop that is trustworthy. if that's your issue. pm me.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:48:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
I think Major Malfunction no longer sells to the public. Unless he changed his mind again he is now a dealer distributor only now.

Basically the process goes like this:

- Find can in stock at online retailer and "purchase" it.
- Get your local transfer dealer to get in touch with them to get the Form 3 going.
- Wait.
- Wait some more.
- Wait even more (depending on how backed up the NFA branch is your Form 3 could take days or months)
- The Form 3 will be approved and your can will be sent to your local transfer dealer.
- During the wait above you can establish your Trust, form an LLC or do nothing and apply as an individual.
- Once your local dealer has the can he and you will fill out your Form 4 paperwork and mail it in with your $200 fee.
- Wait.
- Continue to wait.
- You might as well find something else to occupy yourself as you are going to be waiting for a while.
- Again depending on NFA branch backlog it will be months before your Form 4 comes back, when it does it goes to your transfer dealer and he calls you to come get your can
- When you pick up your can you fill out a 4473 "for the records and to prove you are the one picking up the can" (they don't actually call it in) and take your can home with you

Estimated time from step one to finish: probably 6 months to a year at this point depending on your NFA examiner.

Edit: I know a lot of people frown on this advice but it sometimes is better to shop around locally and see what the various dealers have in stock, in hand right now and go from there. I know a lot of folks don't like waiting the extra time for a Form 3 to process or they want to save another fifty or hundred bucks on their can. I also know that some folks get dead set on getting a specific can and sometimes the only way to get one is to order it directly from the manufacturer... who may or may not even have any in stock and you may have yet another long wait time waiting for them to build your can.


I'd much rather buy one in stock but it doesn't appear anyone has it. At this point I just want whatever method is faster. I know I've got a wait ahead of me and I know it's not gonna be cheap

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 8:55:14 AM EDT
It's very disconcerting when I call every shop in town and ask them if they have a Silencerco Saker and none of them have a fucking clue what I'm talking about...
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:00:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
It's very disconcerting when I call every shop in town and ask them if they have a Silencerco Saker and none of them have a fucking clue what I'm talking about...


It happens.

I know here in Missouri when the suppressor law was overturned allowing private citizens to own them years back a TON of local shops jumped on the SOT bandwagon and started stocking cans. Many of them didn't know much of anything about suppressors and many still don't. I can think of two stocking shops that carry crap for selection and their opinion of cans is 100% influenced by what their distributor can get them. If they don't see it on their distributor's price list it must be crap or not available.

I count myself lucky that my local shop is run by hardcore guys who love class 3 stuff and stay on top of all the new toys. They have their own case dedicated just to cans and if it exists they can try to get it for you.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:15:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 9:23:24 AM EDT by KevinCa316]
Originally Posted By JsARCLIGHT:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
It's very disconcerting when I call every shop in town and ask them if they have a Silencerco Saker and none of them have a fucking clue what I'm talking about...


It happens.

I know here in Missouri when the suppressor law was overturned allowing private citizens to own them years back a TON of local shops jumped on the SOT bandwagon and started stocking cans. Many of them didn't know much of anything about suppressors and many still don't. I can think of two stocking shops that carry crap for selection and their opinion of cans is 100% influenced by what their distributor can get them. If they don't see it on their distributor's price list it must be crap or not available.

I count myself lucky that my local shop is run by hardcore guys who love class 3 stuff and stay on top of all the new toys. They have their own case dedicated just to cans and if it exists they can try to get it for you.


Yeah it must be nice. I got one shop who is pretty good but they don't move enough of them so they can never get their hands on shit, I got another that only stocks AAC which is good for me when I get a Tirant but they have a reputation for being incredibly douchey, I got another that talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk and the last ONLY sells Gemtech and he's shady as fuck...

krustyone tuned me on to a dealer who has some inbound. I'll just have to make a drive and get it there. Unless of course we can find an online dealer that can beat $1,100
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:20:39 AM EDT
ask Silencerco if they have a dealer in your area.

shop them as well as those you may find on line. know if you're paying retail or discount. decide if what you're happy with (retail may have it stock, discount may have to order. some service may be provided as well... trust for example, if buying retail)

If buying outside of your state, find a local class 3 dealer that can transfer it to you. find out what they charge. 50 bucks is fair.

Buy. If out of state, give seller your local dealers info or have them swap info.

When arrives, you and your local dealer will fill out form 4. If trust you don't need LEO sign off. If personal, you have to have LEO sign off along with fingerprints.

send form 4 and trust documents / finger print cards and 200 bucks to ATF.

Call ATF after a month to see if they got it. If not, call every 2 weeks until they do. When it is pending, it should be ready in 6 months.

enjoy.



Link Posted: 2/14/2013 10:55:21 AM EDT
Check out Silencershop.com, I know they recently got a shipment of Sakers in, although it looks like they are gone already. They were great to deal with when I ordered my can, plus their price is a little over $700 on the saker. Give them a call or drop them a line on their dealer page, getting on the list might be a good option if you can't find one locally.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:20:30 AM EDT
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:44:53 AM EDT
Buying online vs your dealer ordering it is not going to save you any time. Either way, the silencer has to transfer to your local dealer via a Form 3 before you can start your paperwork. Your dealer is being optimistic by quoting 1 month, as most of our Form 3s are taking 5-6 weeks for approval right now. So whether you buy online, or your local dealer orders it, expect it to be 5-6 weeks before it arrives and you can start your paperwork. Once your paperwork returns, you pick the silencer up at your local dealer, similar to picking up a transferred gun.

Most online shops aren't going to do the trust for you. That's generally something you do on your own, or work with a lawyer to do. If your local shop is offering to do it, then consider it a bonus, as that's pretty uncommon.

The big reason to buy online is to save money. Most dealers are going to charge $75-100 to transfer a silencer, so if you can save more than that buying online, you'll benefit. Otherwise, it's not worth it due to the added wait time. As someone else mentioned, if you find a local dealer with a Saker in stock, that's going to be the quickest option.

The Sakers have not been shipping in large numbers, so you may have trouble finding them. I've had a couple on backorder from my distributor (Major Malfunction) since last fall and he hasn't gotten in enough to make it to my order yet. Unless your local dealer has a connection with some in stock, he probably can't just pick up the phone and order one that will arrive any time soon.

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:48:30 AM EDT
Well boys I'm set. Silencershop.com gets a new round of Sakers in a couple weeks which is perfect for me because that's when I get my taxes. It's gonna be about $975 out the door with the mount, local shop is going to establish my trust before I order it and transfer it in when the time comes for $85, and now I am just a happy fuckin camper Through the process of phone calls I even got in touch with a local lawyer who is going to set up a real, iron clad trust for the long term in a few months when my bank account recovers cause it's gonna be a little pricey.

Thanks a lot for the help fellas.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:50:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 11:50:55 AM EDT by KevinCa316]
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


They are still saving me $100. Silencershop.com has them in stock and for $200 less than my shop, my shop is establishing a trust and transferring it in for $85. Not to mention they have no idea when they could even get any in stock.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 11:54:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Buying online vs your dealer ordering it is not going to save you any time. Either way, the silencer has to transfer to your local dealer via a Form 3 before you can start your paperwork. Your dealer is being optimistic by quoting 1 month, as most of our Form 3s are taking 5-6 weeks for approval right now. So whether you buy online, or your local dealer orders it, expect it to be 5-6 weeks before it arrives and you can start your paperwork. Once your paperwork returns, you pick the silencer up at your local dealer, similar to picking up a transferred gun.

Most online shops aren't going to do the trust for you. That's generally something you do on your own, or work with a lawyer to do. If your local shop is offering to do it, then consider it a bonus, as that's pretty uncommon.

The big reason to buy online is to save money. Most dealers are going to charge $75-100 to transfer a silencer, so if you can save more than that buying online, you'll benefit. Otherwise, it's not worth it due to the added wait time. As someone else mentioned, if you find a local dealer with a Saker in stock, that's going to be the quickest option.

The Sakers have not been shipping in large numbers, so you may have trouble finding them. I've had a couple on backorder from my distributor (Major Malfunction) since last fall and he hasn't gotten in enough to make it to my order yet. Unless your local dealer has a connection with some in stock, he probably can't just pick up the phone and order one that will arrive any time soon.



What was explained to me is the online store hold the suppressor and I do all paperwork via them until everything is approved, then they transfer it to my shop and I just pick it up and take it home. Silencershop has them in stock in 2 weeks which is also when I get the money. I'm saving over $100 overall and I'm saving time so this is a major win win for me.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:08:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
What was explained to me is the online store hold the suppressor and I do all paperwork via them until everything is approved, then they transfer it to my shop and I just pick it up and take it home.


That is not correct. Silencershop.com must transfer the silencer to your local dealer first with a Form 3. Then, you fill your paperwork out (a Form 4) with the local dealer and mail it off.

NFA items cannot be ordered and shipped at will for a transfer like a normal firearm. There are 2 distinct transfers taking place that must be approved by the ATF at each step. You must have the item in your possession and know the exact serial to initiate a transfer on the Form 4. The Form 4 will state you are applying for a transfer from your local dealer to yourself, which means the silencer needs to be in their possession when you start the forms.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:14:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
What was explained to me is the online store hold the suppressor and I do all paperwork via them until everything is approved, then they transfer it to my shop and I just pick it up and take it home.


That is not correct. Silencershop.com must transfer the silencer to your local dealer first with a Form 3. Then, you fill your paperwork out (a Form 4) with the local dealer and mail it off.

NFA items cannot be ordered and shipped at will for a transfer like a normal firearm. There are 2 distinct transfers taking place that must be approved by the ATF at each step. You must have the item in your possession and know the exact serial to initiate a transfer on the Form 4. The Form 4 will state you are applying for a transfer from your local dealer to yourself, which means the silencer needs to be in their possession when you start the forms.


Well I am being told directly the opposite. I was told by silencershop that they maintain possession of the suppressor the entire time, all paperwork is done with them via the mail, and they transfer it to my class 3 dealer once all paperwork is completed and I can take possession of the suppressor. They even said to make sure I have the trust completed before I buy the suppressor and start the paperwork because they will need a copy of it too. Unless I really heard them wrong. Can anyone else who has gone through this process with them chime in here?
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:20:49 PM EDT
graysonp is right. The suppressor has to go to your dealer on a Form 3, which (I was told) is 4-6 weeks for approval. Then you submit the Form 4 and wait 5-6 months for the approval to come back
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:28:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Engineer:
graysonp is right. The suppressor has to go to your dealer on a Form 3, which (I was told) is 4-6 weeks for approval. Then you submit the Form 4 and wait 5-6 months for the approval to come back


Ok so then I buy the can from the online shop, then they ship it to my local dealer which takes 4-6 weeks, then I do the paperwork though the local dealer and the wait begins?
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:34:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Well I am being told directly the opposite. I was told by silencershop that they maintain possession of the suppressor the entire time, all paperwork is done with them via the mail, and they transfer it to my class 3 dealer once all paperwork is completed and I can take possession of the suppressor. They even said to make sure I have the trust completed before I buy the suppressor and start the paperwork because they will need a copy of it too. Unless I really heard them wrong. Can anyone else who has gone through this process with them chime in here?


They're telling you wrong, or you've misunderstood them. I'm a dealer and sell suppressors out of state all the time.

There is no way Silencershop can submit your Form 4 from them to you. It will get kicked back because you are not in the same state. It must be transferred first to a dealer in your state of residence, and then you can start the Form 4 with your local dealer.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:46:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Well I am being told directly the opposite. I was told by silencershop that they maintain possession of the suppressor the entire time, all paperwork is done with them via the mail, and they transfer it to my class 3 dealer once all paperwork is completed and I can take possession of the suppressor. They even said to make sure I have the trust completed before I buy the suppressor and start the paperwork because they will need a copy of it too. Unless I really heard them wrong. Can anyone else who has gone through this process with them chime in here?


They're telling you wrong, or you've misunderstood them. I'm a dealer and sell suppressors out of state all the time.

There is no way Silencershop can submit your Form 4 from them to you. It will get kicked back because you are not in the same state. It must be transferred first to a dealer in your state of residence, and then you can start the Form 4 with your local dealer.


Yeah I must have heard them wrong. I've never bought a suppressor let alone one online so I have a lot of information being absorbed right now. I have researched the process a lot in the past but it's been awhile I'm basically relearning everything.

So do I need to have the trust established and send ss.com a copy of it before they transfer to my local dealer? That was the last thing we discussed and that's what I was told
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:56:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:

The Sakers have not been shipping in large numbers, so you may have trouble finding them. I've had a couple on backorder from my distributor (Major Malfunction) since last fall and he hasn't gotten in enough to make it to my order yet. Unless your local dealer has a connection with some in stock, he probably can't just pick up the phone and order one that will arrive any time soon.



acusport has sakers in stock, FYI

can you tell me what the deal is with their mounts though, if you know? the specwar comes with a mount... but it looks like the saker doesn't? does the saker come with any mount at all or do you have to buy it seperately?

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 12:59:16 PM EDT by KevinCa316]
Originally Posted By TexRdnec:
Originally Posted By graysonp:

The Sakers have not been shipping in large numbers, so you may have trouble finding them. I've had a couple on backorder from my distributor (Major Malfunction) since last fall and he hasn't gotten in enough to make it to my order yet. Unless your local dealer has a connection with some in stock, he probably can't just pick up the phone and order one that will arrive any time soon.



acusport has sakers in stock, FYI

can you tell me what the deal is with their mounts though, if you know? the specwar comes with a mount... but it looks like the saker doesn't? does the saker come with any mount at all or do you have to buy it seperately?



I was told they do not come with a mount and they have a few different mount options. The good one that takes the "twang" out and is shaped like a tuning fork is called the Trifecta mount and it's $250
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 12:59:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


Not to hijack, but if you are in central Ohio, check out Delta Epsilon. $45 for NFA transfers. The owner is a member here also.
http://deltaepsilonguns.com/firearm-transfers.html

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:01:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rcb1586:
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


Not to hijack, but if you are in central Ohio, check out Delta Epsilon. $45 for NFA transfers. The owner is a member here also.
http://deltaepsilonguns.com/firearm-transfers.html



I'm in Arizona and my dealer is doing the transfer and establishing the trust for $85
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:08:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Originally Posted By rcb1586:
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


Not to hijack, but if you are in central Ohio, check out Delta Epsilon. $45 for NFA transfers. The owner is a member here also.
http://deltaepsilonguns.com/firearm-transfers.html



I'm in Arizona and my dealer is doing the transfer and establishing the trust for $85


I was talking to Engineer cause his state is listed as OH.

That is not a bad price for a trust and transfer though.

On a separate note, it appears as though you are planning two separate trusts.
Trust A from the gun shop and trust B from a local lawyer.
You are planning on putting the Saker on trust A.
In a few months you are planning on having the lawyer draw up a more sophisticated trust.

I just wanted you to be aware that if you were planning on transferring the Saker from A to B that it would cost you an additional $200 tax stamp.

Good luck with the purchase. NFA has made shooting even more enjoyable than it already was.

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:10:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TexRdnec:
can you tell me what the deal is with their mounts though, if you know? the specwar comes with a mount... but it looks like the saker doesn't? does the saker come with any mount at all or do you have to buy it seperately?


Thanks for the heads up on Acusport. I hadn't been watching them, since they're usually a bit higher than M3. But I'm going to order one or two since they have them.

The mounts are confusing. It looks like Silencerco (and the distributors) are pricing them without mounts for dealers. I guess it's so we don't get stuck with a bunch of mounts we don't need. But the MSRP on the Silencerco website is based on the price with the mount (and it says includes mount for that MSRP).

I guess it's up to the individual dealers to decide. I have been quoting my Sakers at $749 with no mount, but the Trifecta flash hider is over $200, so my price with the mount is about $975. It looks like Silencershop.com lists their price with the mount at around the same.

The Specwars all come with a mount regardless for the price advertised.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:21:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rcb1586:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Originally Posted By rcb1586:
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


Not to hijack, but if you are in central Ohio, check out Delta Epsilon. $45 for NFA transfers. The owner is a member here also.
http://deltaepsilonguns.com/firearm-transfers.html



I'm in Arizona and my dealer is doing the transfer and establishing the trust for $85


I was talking to Engineer cause his state is listed as OH.

That is not a bad price for a trust and transfer though.

On a separate note, it appears as though you are planning two separate trusts.
Trust A from the gun shop and trust B from a local lawyer.
You are planning on putting the Saker on trust A.
In a few months you are planning on having the lawyer draw up a more sophisticated trust.

I just wanted you to be aware that if you were planning on transferring the Saker from A to B that it would cost you an additional $200 tax stamp.

Good luck with the purchase. NFA has made shooting even more enjoyable than it already was.



Ewoh shit... The lawyer neglected to mention that... Well how are these gun store trusts? I assume it's just a generic quicken template. How much better are the $500 lawyer trusts? This is another aspect I have no experience in. I've never created legal documents like this. I want a trust to speed up the wait time and also name my daughter as the beneficiary so all firearms and class 3 items will pass on to her and she won't have to pay the $200 stamps again when she receives them.

Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:39:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Well how are these gun store trusts? I assume it's just a generic quicken template. How much better are the $500 lawyer trusts? This is another aspect I have no experience in. I've never created legal documents like this. I want a trust to speed up the wait time and also name my daughter as the beneficiary so all firearms and class 3 items will pass on to her and she won't have to pay the $200 stamps again when she receives them.


I would just let the lawyer do it and make sure it's right the first time. I've never heard of a gun store doing trusts for customers, but it's not a task I would leave to someone who didn't specialize in legal documents.

If you want to leave NFA items to your daughter tax-free, you don't have to put them in a trust. Your executor can transfer NFA items tax free to a legal heir upon your death. You just need to make sure you leave the items to her in your will. They'll still have to do a transfer that takes 6 months, and all the fingerprints, CLEO signature, etc, but the transfer itself is tax free.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:47:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Well how are these gun store trusts? I assume it's just a generic quicken template. How much better are the $500 lawyer trusts? This is another aspect I have no experience in. I've never created legal documents like this. I want a trust to speed up the wait time and also name my daughter as the beneficiary so all firearms and class 3 items will pass on to her and she won't have to pay the $200 stamps again when she receives them.


I would just let the lawyer do it and make sure it's right the first time. I've never heard of a gun store doing trusts for customers, but it's not a task I would leave to someone who didn't specialize in legal documents.

If you want to leave NFA items to your daughter tax-free, you don't have to put them in a trust. Your executor can transfer NFA items tax free to a legal heir upon your death. You just need to make sure you leave the items to her in your will. They'll still have to do a transfer that takes 6 months, and all the fingerprints, CLEO signature, etc, but the transfer itself is tax free.


But if they are in a trust and she is the beneficiary then they just pass seamlessly to her, right? No paperwork, no wait, no new stamp?
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 1:47:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 1:52:39 PM EDT by rcb1586]
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Well how are these gun store trusts? I assume it's just a generic quicken template. How much better are the $500 lawyer trusts? This is another aspect I have no experience in. I've never created legal documents like this. I want a trust to speed up the wait time and also name my daughter as the beneficiary so all firearms and class 3 items will pass on to her and she won't have to pay the $200 stamps again when she receives them.


I would just let the lawyer do it and make sure it's right the first time. I've never heard of a gun store doing trusts for customers, but it's not a task I would leave to someone who didn't specialize in legal documents.

If you want to leave NFA items to your daughter tax-free, you don't have to put them in a trust. Your executor can transfer NFA items tax free to a legal heir upon your death. You just need to make sure you leave the items to her in your will. They'll still have to do a transfer that takes 6 months, and all the fingerprints, CLEO signature, etc, but the transfer itself is tax free.


I didn't think CLEO signature was required for a Form 5 and I thought the heir could take immediate possession.(Wrong about that)
I may be misinformed though.

ETA:
9.5.3.1 Distributions to heirs.
Although these distributions are not treated as “transfers” for
purposes of the NFA, Form 5 must be filed by an executor or administrator to register a firearm
to a lawful heir and the form must be approved by ATF prior to distribution to the heir. The
form should be filed as soon as possible. However, ATF will allow a reasonable time to arrange
for the transfer. This generally should be done before probate is closed. When a firearm is being
transferred to an individual heir, his or her fingerprints on FBI Forms FD-258 must accompany
the transfer application. The application will be denied if the heir’s receipt or possession of the
firearm would violate Federal, State, or local law. The law enforcement certification on the form
need not be completed.
The form should also be accompanied by documentation showing the
executor’s or administrator’s authority to distribute the firearm as well as the heir’s entitlement
to the firearm. Distributions to heirs should not be made until Forms 5 are approved. Executors
and administrators are not required to have estate firearms registered to them prior to distribution



I personally am comfortable with my Quicken trust for my purposes. A couple of suppressors and a couple SBRs.
If I were going to be buying a $15K registered MG then I would get one from a lawyer just for added comfort.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 2:03:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
But if they are in a trust and she is the beneficiary then they just pass seamlessly to her, right? No paperwork, no wait, no new stamp?


Correct. In a trust, ownership doesn't change. The trust still owns the NFA items. But as trustee, your daughter has a right to keep/possess them.

Originally Posted By rcb1586:
I didn't think CLEO signature was required for a Form 5 and I thought the heir could take immediate possession.(Wrong about that)
I may be misinformed though.


I've never actually transferred on a Form 5 to an heir, so I may be wrong. I don't know the exact specifics, and would have to double check if I actually did one.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 2:11:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
But if they are in a trust and she is the beneficiary then they just pass seamlessly to her, right? No paperwork, no wait, no new stamp?


Correct. In a trust, ownership doesn't change. The trust still owns the NFA items. But as trustee, your daughter has a right to keep/possess them.

Originally Posted By rcb1586:
I didn't think CLEO signature was required for a Form 5 and I thought the heir could take immediate possession.(Wrong about that)
I may be misinformed though.


I've never actually transferred on a Form 5 to an heir, so I may be wrong. I don't know the exact specifics, and would have to double check if I actually did one.


So whatever this gun shop trust is should work fine then? These high dollar gun trusts are mainly for huge collections of class 3 toys? I mean like 5 ma deuces and 10 suppressors and 7 SBRs and so on
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 2:28:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rcb1586:
Originally Posted By Engineer:
Silencershop has great prices, but I have yet to find a Class III dealer that doesn't charge $80-100 for a NFA transfer. Pretty much negates any savings I get.


Not to hijack, but if you are in central Ohio, check out Delta Epsilon. $45 for NFA transfers. The owner is a member here also.
http://deltaepsilonguns.com/firearm-transfers.html



Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately I'm in the northeast Ohio area but those are great transfer prices.


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Link Posted: 2/14/2013 5:42:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2013 5:43:20 PM EDT by JRLott]
Two things to think about:
1. Silencer shop recently expanded and opened a storefront. Dave and his long time helper are not doing it all anymore. They hired a couple new people who may have told you incorrect information concerning the process. The other guys are correct that the can must be transferred to your local dealer on a form 3 and be physically in their possession prior to you submitting your form 4. I "think" that if you were in TX you would have it transferred to you on a form 4 then mailed either to you or to a local dealer. I don't know how this works, honestly, as I am only 4 miles from the shop. Out of state=form 3 transfer then form 4.
2. I don't know the law in AZ, but practicing law in TX without a license is illegal. Four different lawyers told me this when I was calling around for prices. The gun store might be able to let you borrow their copy of quicken, but if they charge you for it, they are practicing without a license. I'm also quite sure quicken would frown on that practice. Personally, I went with a lawyer trust. Obviously, I would recommend that route as well, but plenty have quicken trusts that work fine. Your choice, as it is you who has to live with the results. I'd go lawyer trust from the get go because as stated, it will incur another $200 tax stamp to transfer it to a new trust. You'll also be buying more pretty stamps sooner than you think. I wanted a suppressor. That's all. One. I now have one...and one pending...and an SBR...and one pending...and if I don't stay my ass off silencershop.com, I'm gonna have another pending... Crack or meth ain't got nothing on stamp collecting.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 7:39:17 PM EDT
I already know I'll be buying many more class 3 toys in the future. But what is the difference between the gun shop trust and the lawyer trust? I don't want to spend $500 to get the exact same thing I could have gotten for free with my shop. I have no experience with these but near as I can tell the lawyer's just has more credibility
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:17:53 PM EDT
I had a lawyer set up my NFA trust and it cost me $300. The lawyer is a member here and goes out of his way to answer any question you may have.
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 9:27:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cnctactical:
I had a lawyer set up my NFA trust and it cost me $300. The lawyer is a member here and goes out of his way to answer any question you may have.


Can you give me his info?
Link Posted: 2/14/2013 10:03:03 PM EDT
Sent you an Email with info. I also purchase my silencers from Dave at silencershop.com just order the Osprey 45 and the Silencerco Saker. I also have purchased a SWR Specwar 556 from Silencedamerica.com by the way has a layaway program. All my tax return money is gone
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 2:00:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
Originally Posted By cnctactical:
I had a lawyer set up my NFA trust and it cost me $300. The lawyer is a member here and goes out of his way to answer any question you may have.


Can you give me his info?


That one is in TX...as is the other one that I went with. They probably can't practice in AZ, but might be able to provide a good reference. Part of the advantage is that quicken is set up for generic trusts. Cntac and I have trusts set up specifically for NFA Title II guns AKA a Gun Trust. A Gun Trust addresses the uniqueness of the items in the trust rather than simply money or valuables. The two lawyers on here can delve much further into it than I. Biggest advantage of a quicken trust...cost. Biggest advantage of an NFA Gun Trust...peace of mind in knowing it was set up properly and legally. Quicken=$85? Lawyer=$300-$450. Difference=$315-$365. Illegal possession of an NFA item=$10,000 and 10 years in jail plus lawyer fees. It was a no brainer for me. It is a no brainer for those that went the other route too. Perhaps they are bigger risk takers, less fear of .gov, worry less, don't like spending money, etc. perhaps I and those that went lawyer route are distrusting, more risk averse, whatever. The choice is yours to educate yourself on and decide on, because it is you who must live with that choice. Start looking them up online and making phone calls. Discuss it with them as well as cost. Then decide.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 6:53:14 PM EDT
You don't need a trust to possess class 3 items it just has it's advantages and accelerates part of the process
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:01:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
You don't need a trust to possess class 3 items it just has it's advantages and accelerates part of the process


I'm fully aware of that and can't see where I indicated otherwise. I thought you had decided on a trust and were debating between quicken and lawyer versions. The process acceleration is a minute thing to me. Contact information for a lawyer in TX would do you about as much good as my TX CHL would do me in NY.
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:12:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JRLott:
Originally Posted By KevinCa316:
You don't need a trust to possess class 3 items it just has it's advantages and accelerates part of the process


I'm fully aware of that and can't see where I indicated otherwise. I thought you had decided on a trust and were debating between quicken and lawyer versions. The process acceleration is a minute thing to me. Contact information for a lawyer in TX would do you about as much good as my TX CHL would do me in NY.

Originally Posted By JRLott:
Quicken=$85? Lawyer=$300-$450. Difference=$315-$365. Illegal possession of an NFA item=$10,000 and 10 years in jail plus lawyer fees.


It sounded like get a lawyer trust or risk a $10,000 fine and 10 years in prison
Link Posted: 2/15/2013 7:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2013 7:19:45 PM EDT by JRLott]
Edit: Partially Redacted. Confusion explained. I was only referring to trusts, and in no way intended to indicate that individuals could not posses NFA items.

Again, it is also likely illegal for your shop to provide you with a trust as they would be practicing law without a license, unless of course they are lawyers. Quicken most likely frowns on this practice as well, unless the shop owns a commercially licensed version of their software.

If you don't want to wonder about the legalities of the quicken trust provided by a non-licensed individual providing a legal document most likely in violation of the software license agreement, go with the lawyer trust or individual route.
If all you are worried about is money, go individual or quicken.
If you are worried about money and being legal go individual.
If you want to be 100% legal and have all the advantages a trust offers, go the lawyer trust route.

Personally, I'd go lawyer trust route or buy my own copy of a will maker software, if I was set on a trust. I sure wouldn't want to go to jail or have my items taken away if the trust is declared illegal due to previously mentioned legal issues with the store providing you with a trust.
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