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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/6/2002 4:58:36 PM EDT
While I am an avid shooter, I have never fired black powder. I have just been given a Thompson Center .45 Black powder rifle and I have questions since I don't know what the hell I'm doing in this land of old.

First, How many grains of powder should I use? I would like to fire bullets rather than balls. Do these come in several weights? I assume that would affect how much powder to use.

What kind of powder is available / should I use?

What is the process, powder, wadding, bullet? Or is there more?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, black powder is comletely new to me.

TIA!

Mike
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:35:55 PM EDT
**First, what kind of gun is it?
Flintlock- has a hammer that carries a flint that strikes a frizzen(flat thing) and ignites fine powder in a pan that lights the main charge.
Percussion- has a hammer on the side that strikes a cap and sends the spark down a nipple.
In line- the most modern has a bolt lever like a modern bolt action and you place a primer in the action concentric with the bore.
Each of these requires somewhat different equipment.
First, How many grains of powder should I use?

** Start light, 100 gns and work up

What kind of powder is available / should I use?

**Using smokeless powder will get you KILLED!!!Unless you have a rifle that is SPECIFICALLY designed for smokeless powder, you should only use BLACKPOWDER OR PYRODEX. If you cannot find confirmation that this rifle is safe with smokeless use blackpowder or pyrodex. Both BLACKPOWDER AND PYRODEX come in traditional, powder form. Pyrodex does come in pre-measured pellets that you drop down the barrel and eliminates measuring powder.

If using powder, ALWAYS USE A POWDER MEASURE. This is as important as not using smokeless in a BP only gun. If you pour out of a horn or can with a capacity of powder and there is still a spark in the barrel, fire WILL travel up the pouring powder and set off your horn. A pound of blackpowder going off in your hand and in close proximity to your head is not a good thing.

OK now, assuming you dont have a flintlock...

Check rifle and snap a primer or cap and make sure action is clear of oil.

Measure powder and pour down bore.

Using a bullet starter(like a short ramrod with a ball or large handle on the end) Start your bullet or patched round ball in the first few inches of barrel.

Use ramrod to push bullet down bore (don't hammerit, push it)

When you think it is at the bottom, pull your ramrod almost out of the barrel and gently toss it back down the barrel. If it bounces enough for you to say, Wow that bounced, then it is seated. If the rod lands with a dull thud then push some more. NEVER push on the end of the ramrod with the palm of your hand. If the rod breaks your hand will land on the jagged end and likely run through your hand.

Place the cap or primer in its respective place. point downrange, arm, aim and fire.

HAVE FUN.

Keep looking on the net, there is tons of info on this. get a DIXIE GUN WORKS catalog. they have a website and are the authority on this. the info in the catalog alone is worth the 5 bucks. (its 2 and a half inches thick, only 2 inches is stuff to sell, the rest is info and how to)
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:44:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 5:44:28 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:30:58 PM EDT
Actually I am receiving both a percussion cap and a flintlock, but I will probably only shoot the percussion cap rifle.

As far as the exact model I'm not sure, I will actually receive the rifles on Wednesday. They are brand new - never fired, belonged to my grandfather, and my dad is giving them to me. I will give you all the details when I get them in a couple of days (My friend is bringing them on his upcoming visit).

You said 100 grains and work up, what should I not go past? I will check as far as smokeless powder.

Thanks,

Mike
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:58:24 PM EDT
You want to be sure and use FFF black powder. I would not start with 100 grains. How far are you planning on shooting? I would start as low as 60 grains and work up to about 80-90 grains. Also, use CCI caps. They seem to work pretty well. If you are shooting ball ammo(which I do), don't use the standard patch lube. This gums up the barrel after about 5 shots making you have to clean the barrel. If you want a way to shoot all day without cleaning, use a mixture of 1 part water-soluable machine-shop oil to 7 parts water. It will actually clean your barrel everytime you ram the ball and patch down the barrel. If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:04:13 PM EDT
Sorry, I didn't read you wanted to use bullets. You have to use regular ole lube for that. If you're shooting at the range, ball is cheaper and just as good if you're not hunting. But use whatever makes you happy. Blackpowder shooting if very addictive and a whole lot of fun, not to mention that once you have all the equiptment it is very cheap too!
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:05:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 7:06:01 PM EDT by SGB]
Look here grasshoper.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:21:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 8:29:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2002 8:35:40 PM EDT by Mach1]
E-mail T/C, and they will send you out a free manual on how to shoot blackpowder. Others here have posted good advice, but you should really follow factory load information, especially when it comes to powder charges.

Do not start at 100grns! That sounds more like a maximum charge to me. I have a T/C White Mountain Carbine (50cal) and I shoot mainly between 60-80 grns.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 10:00:42 PM EDT
I would recommend NOT using Pyrodex or other corrosive blackpowders. Save yourself some time & trouble & use Cleanshot Powder


ColtShorty

GOA KABA COA JPFO SAF NRA

"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted
and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do
these things to other people and I require
the same from them."
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 3:51:41 AM EDT

Gotta jump in here.

The best thing you can do is find another black poweder shooter and let them demo everything for you. If not, there are several excellent books on black powder rifles...check your library.

On powder choices...I do like to use black powder in my Lyman Plains Rifle, but you can use Pyrodex. Remember, both are corrosive and you are going to have to clean that barrel thoroughly after shooting...again, a good black powder book will give you all that info, but count on cleaning taking 30 minutes or more if you are going to do a good job....it ain't like cleaning a modern weapon.

As far as your load, most experts agree that you start out with a load equal to your caliber and work up from there. Start with 45 grains and gradually increase your load by 5 grains. Once you get a tight grouping, stop. Each rifle will shoot different and what works for one won't be good for another. A 100 grain load is too much for the rifle you are using. I use a 75 grain load in my .50 caliber...it is very accurate at 100 yards and has dropped deer consistently.

Ball or conical depends on the type of twist you have...if it is a fast twist (i.e., 1 in 24) then use a conical...a slow twist (i.e., 1 in 66) use a patched ball. More than likely your Thompson is 1 in 24, so conicals will work. The twist has to do with stabilizing the projectile.

Now, all I have said is pertinent to traditional muzzleloaders...if you have an in-line, then that is something different and you should get a manual from Thompson.

Remember...NEVER use smokeless powder...the pressure is too great from this stuff and you will do great damage to your rifle and yourself.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 4:20:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/7/2002 4:22:40 AM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

More than likely your Thompson is 1 in 24, so conicals will work.

You don't know that yet. T/C made the Renegade and Hawken as well as other sidelock models in .45 caliber at one time or another. He never said what type of system it was.


You want to be sure and use FFF black powder.


Noooooo, use FFg. It's a rifle, remember? FFFg is for pistols and SMALL caliber rifles (i.e., .32 and .36 caliber). In fact, why is black powder even being discussed? As soon as Pyrodex was introduced, that crap was on its way out. Black powder fouling is atrocious at best. Pyrodex is at least manageable. Use Pyrodex RS.


Save yourself some time & trouble & use Cleanshot Powder

How much of this stuff have you used? It ain't what it's cracked up to be. I've chrono'd a bunch of this shit (yes, I said SHIT) along with black powder and Pyrodex RS and the only advantage I can see is it doesn't require cleaning. Consistency is awful and it degrades fairly quickly as compared to black powder and Pyrodex. If it was as good as its maker (GOEX) claimed, they would cease manufacture of black powder and Hodgdon would look to get out of the Pyrodex business. Hint: they ain't.


If you are shooting ball ammo(which I do), don't use the standard patch lube. This gums up the barrel after about 5 shots making you have to clean the barrel.

Another falsehood. As long as you use all natural lubricants, like the stuff from T/C, Navy Arms, or Hodgdon and get the barrel "seasoned," then this isn't a problem. I prefer the T/C Bore Butter. Easy to get and it comes in a squeeze tube. I've shot all kinds of conicals and patched round balls at all day range sessions and I've never had my barrel "gummed up."


Also, use CCI caps.

All of this "advice" and no one has advised him of a cap size. Use a #11 cap (I doubt it has a musket nipple), preferably RWS. They fit tighter on the nipple than any other brand. Think about buying an Uncle Mike's Hotshot Nipple as a replacement.

Wait until you get the rifle and then call or email T/C for an appropriate owner's manual. It'll have load data, cleaning instructions, etc. If it turns out to be a sidelock, you might also think about buying the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. It's a little outdated, but has some good data for sidelock muzzleloaders.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:05:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Noooooo, use FFg. It's a rifle, remember? FFFg is for pistols and SMALL caliber rifles (i.e., .32 and .36 caliber). In fact, why is black powder even being discussed? As soon as Pyrodex was introduced, that crap was on its way out. Black powder fouling is atrocious at best. Pyrodex is at least manageable. Use Pyrodex RS.




Jim, FFF is perfectly safe as long as you reduce your powder charge. Many believe it shoots cleaner. But, for simplicity sake, I would recommend FF.

Don't like blackpowder? Much easier to ignite than Pyrodex. I can remember dozens of misfires with Pyrodex. Won't touch the stuff. Plus, blackpowder is authentic. If your using proper lube, you can shoot dozens of rounds in between shots. Don't forget the giant smoke cloud you get with blackpowder. Very satisfying. Keeps the bugs away at the range
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:29:33 AM EDT

Jim_Dandy is right...the Thompson Hawken and Renegade are 1 in 48 twist, not 1 in 24 as I indicated in my earlier post...slip of the mind...though what I said about conicals is correct, a 1 in 48 is sufficient for conicals...patched balls work best in 1 in 66 twist.

I also agree, use FF powder...use FFF in pistol or in flashpan of a flintlock.

Pyrodex and blackpowder are both corrosive...with blackpowder being the dirtiest...but I still prefer blackpowder over pyrodex...you do have to swab more often in between shots (I usually swab after every 5 shots using blackpowder without any problems) and you want to be very thorough in your cleaning after your shooting session. It really is a matter of preference...just like I prefer shooting a patched ball over conicals or sabots.

The topic of inline vs. tradition, pyrodex vs blackpowder, and percusion cap vs flintlock will spark as many arguments as will a discussion of barbeque here in NC (because some idiots don't realize that eastern NC style, vinegar based barbeque is the only real barbeque...everything else is just cooked hog)...'nough said.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:39:34 AM EDT
Agree with Mach1 on the Pyrodex. Don't like it. Goex for me.
As far as lube, stay away from any petroleum products. Any of the TC lubes are good. I just use animal fat (lard) with minimal fouling buildup.
CLEANING is of the utmost importance with front stuffers. That can't be stressed enough! DON'T let the sun set on a dirty bore.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:44:50 AM EDT

Don't like blackpowder? Much easier to ignite than Pyrodex. I can remember dozens of misfires with Pyrodex.

That could only be due to your not knowing what you're doing.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 5:58:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Don't like blackpowder? Much easier to ignite than Pyrodex. I can remember dozens of misfires with Pyrodex.

That could only be due to your not knowing what you're doing.




Yeah, good one.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:16:47 AM EDT
start at 100gr??? holy shit.

I usually use 50gr in my .50 flintlock. You can go up to about 120 in my .50, but I usually stick pretty low, since I'm not trying to kill anything. Generally, you want to stick with a number of grains equal to the caliber of your rifle. Then try adding about 5 grains at a time. Your most accurate loads will probably be in the middle of what your rifle is capable of. I.E.hotter and faster isn't usually more accurate.

Link Posted: 5/7/2002 6:55:11 AM EDT
__________________
"That could only be due to your not knowing what you're doing."
____________________
Jim Dandy,
It must be nice to be so knowledgeable that you can post with such authority, however ill-mannered.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 7:12:00 AM EDT

Jim Dandy,
It must be nice to be so knowledgeable that you can post with such authority, however ill-mannered.


Yes, it is nice. I get quite a laugh, albeit a sarcastic one, at some of the BS that flies around. You have to wonder: if black powder was sooooooo good, why was Pyrodex even developed? Hmmmmm. Think about it, but not too hard.

Another hole in the use of 3F powder: most, if not all, rifle measures are calibrated to throw a volume charge of 2F. A "newbie" probably isn't going to have a quick conversion at his disposal. As for 3F burning cleaner? PLEASE. That bit of logic could only come from someone who hasn't shot a muzzleloader very damned much. P grade Pyrodex is somewhat easier to ignite than RS, but how many places consistently carry P grade? How often have you really needed P grade? Hell's bells, even Wal-Fart has RS.

I seem to recall from the T/C manual, that the MAXIMUM charge for a .50 caliber Maxi Ball is 120 grains of 2F or Pyrodex RS volumetric equivalent. A .45 will be different, as will any loads for a patched round ball. I use a 100 grain equivalent of RS Select behind a 320 grain Lee R.E.A.L. slug with a Hotshot nipple and RWS caps. It's good for close to 1800 feet/second out of my Renegade. Gives nice 100 yard groups and puts nice big holes in deer. None offer any resistance.
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:06:42 AM EDT
Thanks much for the advice! I am looking forward to taking posession of these rifles. This ought to be a good bit of fun to kill some more time when I run out of ammo for the AR :-)

One more really stupid question. Several of you have mentioned lube, I assume this is to lube the bullet / ball before loading? Is this correct? Do you just coat the round before loading?

Thanks again!

Mike
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:19:36 AM EDT

One more really stupid question. Several of you have mentioned lube, I assume this is to lube the bullet / ball before loading? Is this correct? Do you just coat the round before loading?

Yes, just coat the bullet with an appropriate lube so that the grease grooves are filled. A great deal of lube isn't required, just enough to fill the grooves. The lube has the effect of minimizing the fouling as well as making it softer and easier to clean up. Some guys make their own, usually out of lard or Crisco (all natural is the way to go). However, T/C Bore Butter is reasonably priced and seems to be available just about everywhere.

If you're shooting patched roundballs, just coat the patch with your lube, or buy the patches already lubed. Using this all natural stuff will eventually "season" the bore just like a cast iron skillet. Once seasoned, clean up is easier and not needed as quickly (you can wait several hours if necessary, like when deer hunting).
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:10:55 PM EDT
I, for one, think it's sad that black powder substitutes (mainly Pyrodex) are squeezing genuine black powder out of the picture.

If I recall correctly, the main impetus behind the development of Pyrodex was simply to have a propellant for muzzleloaders that was classified as a "propellant" instead of an "explosive." This makes shipping much easier and allows dealers to sell it without the hassle that goes along with dealing in explosives. Of course, it DOES create less fouling in the firearm, but that was not why it was developed.

Last thing I heard, Pyrodex was next to useless for use in flintlocks, wheellocks, matchlocks, etc. I guess the story was, if you had SOME black powder for priming the pan AND for a booster charge, then you could top it off with Pyrodex. What fun.

When I was in my early teens, I used to do much black powder shooting with real black powder. Much of it through a Colt 1851 Navy replica, which I used to clean the frame of by tilting it downward and running hot water over the cylinder pin and the forward tip of the frame. Then I'd wipe the recoil sheild area out with a damp cloth and give a squirt of oil into the firing mechanism. I never removed the wood grip, except to repair broken hand springs. Yet that plain steel revolver never showed a speck of rust.

Later, around my senior year of high school, I saved up and bought a STAINLESS STEEL Ruger "Old Army." I gave this revolver practically the same treatment, except using the new Pyrodex exclusively. Then one day I took off the grips, and holy smokes, my stainless steel gun was RUSTY!

Maybe they've changed the formula for Pyrodex since then, but I've been skeptical of it (and of stainless steel) ever since.

Another eye-opener was a crude homemade matchlock I once fashioned from a 32 gauge shotgun barrel blank, also during my school days. Not being overly impressed with my piece of handywork or the matchlock ignition system (Modern corned and glazed powders simply won't work for priming unless you grind up the granules first.), I tossed this gun uncleaned into the bottom of my closet. Then, like TWO OR THREE YEARS later, I finally got around to cleaning it. Guess what? NO RUST. I can still hardly believe it, and no I won't do this to a good firearm, but there was NO RUST.

My opinion is that there is, or at least was, something in Pyrodex that was a lot more corrosive than what's in blackpowder. Sort of like how early smokeless powder guns had more rusting problems from corrosive primers than black powder cartridge guns did using the same primers. The blackpowder fouling actually "washed" much of the MORE corrosive primer stuff out.

Anyway, Pyrodex makes an easy "out" for dealers to carry something to satisfy 90% of muzzleloaders, and it's reducing the demand for the more versatile and more authentic "real" stuff, and making it a whole lot harder to find. I think that sucks.

I mean, if you aren't going to shoot real blackpowder at least part of the time, and experience all its warts, why not just stick to your AR-15's and be done with it?
Link Posted: 5/7/2002 8:18:19 PM EDT
thanks for catching my mistake guys, it was late here when I typed that.

Most powder measures start at 40-50 gns.

I meant to say to keep your maximum at 100gns for a while. Too many people jump up too fast before getting used to the rifle.

I will be much more careful when I type from now on.

HUGE APOLOGY, I am tasting bitter humility.

thanks again

Brandon
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 3:06:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/8/2002 3:18:56 AM EDT by Jim_Dandy]

Later, around my senior year of high school, I saved up and bought a STAINLESS STEEL Ruger "Old Army." I gave this revolver practically the same treatment, except using the new Pyrodex exclusively. Then one day I took off the grips, and holy smokes, my stainless steel gun was RUSTY!

Maybe they've changed the formula for Pyrodex since then, but I've been skeptical of it (and of stainless steel) ever since.


So you're blaming your own ignorance on Pyrodex and stainless steel? SUAVE!!! How friggin' hard is it to remove ONE screw for access to the grip frame? EVERYWHERE, and I mean EVERYWHERE that there is fouling, there is a potential to corrode. Stainless steel is not rust proof, just rust resistant. Jesus H. Christ, all of the black powder manuals have advised to COMPLETELY (look up the definition for "completely" if it escapes you) dissassemble a revolver for cleaning.


My opinion is that there is, or at least was, something in Pyrodex that was a lot more corrosive than what's in blackpowder. Sort of like how early smokeless powder guns had more rusting problems from corrosive primers than black powder cartridge guns did using the same primers. The blackpowder fouling actually "washed" much of the MORE corrosive primer stuff out.

Gawd. Black powder and Pyrodex are both hydroscopic, with black powder producing much more fouling than Pyrodex. Black powder fouling "washing out corrosive primer stuff?" WHEN WILL THE STUPIDITY END? Black powder fouling IS the corrosive element!!!


Anyway, Pyrodex makes an easy "out" for dealers to carry something to satisfy 90% of muzzleloaders, and it's reducing the demand for the more versatile and more authentic "real" stuff, and making it a whole lot harder to find. I think that sucks.


Noooooo. It's easier to ship and store and oh, did you happen to forget that it fouls LESS than black powder and burns more consistently? I'm guessing you probably haven't shot a helluva lot of black powder at all and this is mostly guessing and speculation on your part.

This is the silliest thing I've heard concerning black powder guns in quite some time: blaming your own ignorance on Pyrodex.
Link Posted: 5/8/2002 11:50:28 AM EDT
All I have ever shot in my .45 side lock is FFF. You can use FF, but FFF is not bad. I would not use it in anything larger that a .45 though. As far as flintlock primers, you need to use FFFF not FFF. The FFFF is made just for using in the flash pan. Just wanted to clear that up.

Sorry about not mentioning the cap size to use.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 5:56:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

So you're blaming your own ignorance on Pyrodex and stainless steel?



Jim Dandy, in my first post I tried to be tactful and not single you out by name as being a rude stupid asshole. I will try to continue my good manners here.

I'm not blaming anything on anything; I'm merely stating the fact that stainless steel exposed to Pyrodex fouling rusted, whereas plain steel exposed to black powder fouling under virtually identical conditions did not. REPEATEDLY did not.

Hard concept to grasp, or what?


Stainless steel is not rust proof, just rust resistant.


Duh. I'm a professional machinist. I think I knew that already. Come to think of it, I knew that when I was about 11 years old. But I'm fairly sure that the word "resistant" means LESS likely to rust than plain steel, not MORE likely.


Jesus H. Christ, all of the black powder manuals have advised to COMPLETELY (look up the definition for "completely" if it escapes you) dissassemble a revolver for cleaning.


Yes, I'm sure all the guys in the Civil War took out all those little bitty screws and played with the little bitty bolt and the little bitty hand and the little bitty trigger, etc. in the field every night before they went to bed. I want to be authentic and do it just like them and see for myself how it really was, so I guess I'll have to change my habits now.


Black powder fouling "washing out corrosive primer stuff?" WHEN WILL THE STUPIDITY END? Black powder fouling IS the corrosive element!!!


Hmmm...

Maybe this is just a case of bad reading comprehension, and not utter ignorance. I was referring to the EARLY SMOKELESS POWDER PERIOD. If you have not heard of corrosive primers and do not know about how smokeless powder arms suffered much more from the effects of them than did the blackpowder cartridge guns still in use during the same time period, maybe you need to do a bit of study on the subject before opening your mouth and confirming our worst fears about you.


...and oh, did you happen to forget that it fouls LESS than black powder...


That reading comprehension thing again. I said: "Of course, it DOES create less fouling in the firearm..."

I think you are the one doing the forgetting here.


I'm guessing you probably haven't shot a helluva lot of black powder at all and this is mostly guessing and speculation on your part.


Did I not say, "I used to do much black powder shooting"? Did I not refer to specific things I did and saw that led me to the opinions I now hold?

I will try to be charitable and assume that you just have a problem understanding what you read. Perhaps eyeglasses might help you.
Link Posted: 5/9/2002 10:00:32 PM EDT

I'm not blaming anything on anything; I'm merely stating the fact that stainless steel exposed to Pyrodex fouling rusted, whereas plain steel exposed to black powder fouling under virtually identical conditions did not. REPEATEDLY did not.

No, you did blame Pyrodex for your ignorance. You specifically stated that you did NOT clean the entire revolver after shooting it. Surprise!! And the moronathon moves on.


Yes, I'm sure all the guys in the Civil War took out all those little bitty screws and played with the little bitty bolt and the little bitty hand and the little bitty trigger, etc. in the field every night before they went to bed. I want to be authentic and do it just like them and see for myself how it really was, so I guess I'll have to change my habits now.

Hint: the nipple wrenches had a small screwdiver on one end. And you thought it was just a fancy nose picker. How friggin' hard is it to remove ONE screw for the grips? Too hard for you apparently.


Maybe this is just a case of bad reading comprehension, and not utter ignorance. I was referring to the EARLY SMOKELESS POWDER PERIOD. If you have not heard of corrosive primers and do not know about how smokeless powder arms suffered much more from the effects of them than did the blackpowder cartridge guns still in use during the same time period, maybe you need to do a bit of study on the subject before opening your mouth and confirming our worst fears about you.

No, I'm fairly clear on the chemical reactions involved here. You're the jackass opining the sublime and ridiculous. Another hint: nothing gets washed out.

Patiently awaiting your next moment of "brilliance."
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 8:01:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
You specifically stated that you did NOT clean the entire revolver after shooting it.



Wow, Sherlock, I guess you must be really perceptive. OF COURSE I stated that my cleaning methods were not very thorough. THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. I went for years, and countless shooting sessions, using the same half-assed cleaning techniques on my 1851 Navy before Pyrodex was available, and got no rust. Ever.

It's not like I did some conclusive, scientific test or something, but still I notice you have not bothered to offer any explanations for this so far.

And what about my MAIN point? Do you think it's a GOOD thing if real black powder is carried by fewer and fewer dealers, because those dealers are not going to bother with the hassle of it when only 5% or 10% of muzzleloading shooters are not satisfied with Pyrodex? If so, where does that leave flintlock shooters and cannon shooters? Or do you just not give a damn about anybody else's version of the sport besides your own?

I myself am not a hardcore "buckskinner" type, nor a Civil War re-enactor. But in my opinion, those people are the real core of what black powder shooting is all about. I'm happy that Pyrodex is out there, if it helps make the overall sport more accessible or more enjoyable to more people. I'm not against Pyrodex, or even sabots or in-lines, if that's what other people want to shoot. But if true black powder is in any way different from Pyrodex, then it's the black powder I want to experience, and not the "improved" substitute. It's like that old line about taking a shower with a raincoat on. To me personally, what's the point?

I, at least, do not claim to be a mind reader. But you sure give the impression of being awfully eager to push genuine black powder into the junk heap.



Patiently awaiting your next moment of "brilliance."


And then there's this stuff. You and I could argue forever about certain points, but looking back at the advice you've given, I readily admit that 90% or more of it is good to go. When it comes to muzzleloading guns, and other topics I've bumped into you on before, you are a pretty knowledgeable person. So it's only all the more tragic when you reveal such utter stupidity in your presentation. I almost have to wonder if it's an interest in firearms that brings you to this site at all? Or do you just get off on breaking normal standards of behavior, and this provides a convenient and penalty-free context for you to do it?
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 8:51:25 PM EDT

Or do you just get off on breaking normal standards of behavior, and this provides a convenient and penalty-free context for you to do it?

No wonder my Mom was so disappointed in me.

Black powder is a hassle and aggravation to store and ship. The fouling, particularly on cap and ball sixguns, is atrocious. I think your judgment and opinion of Pyrodex is wrong and I've explained my end of it.


Do you think it's a GOOD thing if real black powder is carried by fewer and fewer dealers, because those dealers are not going to bother with the hassle of it when only 5% or 10% of muzzleloading shooters are not satisfied with Pyrodex?

Black powder's demise may change the face of BP shooting? I don't think so. The original BP shooters started looking for an improved mouse trap almost as soon as Roger Bacon wrote down the recipe. Friggin' inlines that, in my view, more or less skirt the law in its definition of "muzzle loader" will.

At any rate, I have neither the time nor energy in continuing what has become an increasingly non-productive discussion. We're both doing an exceptional job of looking like jackasses with this cyber mudslinging. I want you to have a good weekend, Fuzzbean, and I will do the same.
Link Posted: 5/10/2002 8:57:13 PM EDT
Jim, Pyrodex sucks. let it go,man. Pyrodex is for lazy people.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 4:12:53 AM EDT

How friggin' hard is it to remove ONE screw for access to the grip frame?


Actually you are both wrong about the one little screw thing. All Colt copies-Remingtons excluded-usually have one piece stocks, Therefore you need to remove four screws and the entire grip frame to clean up around the grip area.

Not that this helps Dakota kid at all........

Ok, Jim, tell me how the Colt's revolvers suck and Remingtons are the only way to go.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 4:27:06 AM EDT

Actually you are both wrong about the one little screw thing. All Colt copies-Remingtons excluded-usually have one piece stocks, Therefore you need to remove four screws and the entire grip frame to clean up around the grip area.

His corrosion problem was on the Ruger (one screw).


Ok, Jim, tell me how the Colt's revolvers suck and Remingtons are the only way to go.

I moved out of the stone age a long time ago and bought a Ruger Old Army. And I keep the grip frame rust free.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 11:08:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2002 7:02:16 PM EDT by Fuzzbean]

Originally Posted By 455SD:
Actually you are both wrong about the one little screw thing.



I wasn't actually wrong, as I never said that. I just didn't want to wander any farther off my original point, and let it slide. The one-screw Ruger was too mixed into the discussion to make kicking him there any fun, anyway.

Um, I mean, I knew what he meant.

I purified my soul a long time ago, dumped that damn stainless Buck Rogers monstrosity, and went back to Colts. I haven't really checked around the grip frames lately, but assume they're probably OK since I never had any trouble with them before.



Say, a couple years ago I bought some of that "Clean Shot" powder. Strictly for educational purposes, mind you. That darn stuff was blowing back the hammer on my 1851 Navy and rotating the cylinder 50 to 90 percent the way to the next chamber. Pretty near went full auto on me. No, I'm not making this up, and yes, I know it was just my own extreme humiliating ignorance for not replacing worn out nipples and for using overly tough Italian percussion caps that won't split consistently. But nonetheless, such things never happen when I use that wonderful gen-u-wine black powder. Seemed to my feeble brain like maybe pressures were higher than normal. Plus the powder was kind of lumpy.

Dang foolish newfangled ideas.
Link Posted: 5/11/2002 11:43:53 AM EDT
I've always made it a practice to replace the nipples from the get-go, especially on Italian guns. Their metallurgy isn't very good and they always seem to be undersized for the appropriate caps. Uncle Mike's offers them in #11 which seems to make better sense anyway. The #10 caps aren't always easy to find.

The biggest thing I've seen to complain about for the newer replacement powders is their lack of consistency. Every maker claims either a volumetric or weight equivalency. Doesn't seem to be so. They all seem to suffer from varying degrees of instability and degrade fairly rapidly as compared to black powder or Pyrodex.
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