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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/16/2003 3:39:17 AM EST
To be honest I don't like the looks or the upkeep of blued weapons. So I'm looking for an over under 12 gauge that has a pakerized finish with synthetic furniture. All that I found so far is the ruger red label. Is this any good? Are their any other ones out there? Also remember that I am kind of small and it will be used for trap. So if it bucks like some thing hellish let me know because I most likely will not be able to handle it. I curently use a remington 1100 for trap and like it but want some thing more. I do not hunt curently so it would be only used for sporting purposes.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 7:53:52 AM EST
SL, You appear to like this sport. If you are going to stick with it you are going to want a dedicated trap gun. After a break in period your scores will improve. No dedicated trap gun would be offered with a synthetic stock because of the recoil factor. A light weight over/under will kick your ass after a while. Trap guns are heavy to soak up the recoil and give you a steady swing. I do not know why but Ruger shotguns have never been big with the clay guys. The purchase of a trap barrel for your 1100 might be the way to go for now while you shop around. You have to befriend some of these trap guys and try their guns. I would not spend any money until you get so trigger time with other guns. MIKE.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 9:03:10 AM EST

The closest thing to what you want is a Ruger All-Weather over and under. It is stainless with a synthetic stock.

I think they are pug fugly though...
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 3:48:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 3:51:07 PM EST by Zoub]
Nobody I know of makes an O/U uglier than that Ruger all weather seat up. and you certainly do not want to be looking over a Stainless barrel on a hot, sunny day. Too much glare. They are tough guns, but I also would not want a stainless gun in the duck blind.

Nothing is lower mtc than a break action, single barrel.

If I was in your shoes and I wanted a dedicated, ugly ass, even my dog would not look at it trap gun that did not need a lot of cleaning, I would buy a VERY used BT99 or similar gun, then have it parkerized or painted and have at it...........but I personally would never do that.........but your idea is not bad.
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 5:36:51 PM EST
I'm looking at this from a practical view point, but I guess lazy does = ugly with many things. Really am I that far out there that no one agrees that a chrome and black over under would look nice, and be easier to take care of then blued.

Link Posted: 7/16/2003 8:03:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 8:15:03 PM EST by Zoub]
He who walks a trail less traveled, sometimes walks alone.

Stainless equals a lot of glare, hard on your eyes looking down 30" of bright barrel on a 90 degree hunid day, day or night. It may not contrast well with the bird either? I could see it causing some eye fatigue too. If there was ANY small advantage to having stainless on the trap pad, every anal shooter out there would be doing it.

It is not like there is any blood or mud on the trap field. Nothing eats blueing like blood.

Do what Mike said, buy a dedicated 1100 trap barrel for now, or at least until you get this idea out of your head. You will thank him later and save a $1000 in the process.

PS maybe what you need is a gun with a full coverage camo pattern? These guys make my favorite choke tubes.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 12:34:20 PM EST
SL, Buy the 1100 trap barrel and start looking around. I do not know what barrel you are using now but your score will improve with the trap barrel. The game of trap is old enough that if there was a better way to beat the game the trap guys would be using it already. Z is on the money with the Browning BT-99, a great gun. shot it yesterday. If you buy the 1100 trap barrel you can shoot doubles with it and then have the BT-99 for standard trap. MIKE.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 3:04:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/17/2003 3:14:51 PM EST by Dano523]

The action is one of sloppiest, when opened, on the market. The triggers are mechanical with way too much creep and break at over 6lbs. Plus, since the butt stock is too short for shooting games, the shotgun kicks like hell.

If you feel compelled to step up to an O/U, then you may want to look at a Beretta. The 686 Onyx is not blued but has a bonded surface. As for finding an O/U with synthetic stocks, you will be hard pressed. Normal a decent starter shotgun will start at $1400, and then increase as you add options, such as upgraded wood, and trigger options. Also, plan on spending at least $400 on having the shotgun fitted and the triggers worked.

Bottom line is to try what ever model you decide out (a full round of trap) before you buy it. If you can live with the results, and have a good smith to fine tune the shotgun to you, then go for it.

P.S. Why buy a BT-99 when you can get a TM-1 for around the same price. The Brownings are the yugo's of shotguns compared to the Perazzi's.

Link Posted: 7/18/2003 2:14:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 2:15:28 PM EST by Zoub]

Originally Posted By Dano523:
Why buy a BT-99 when you can get a TM-1 for around the same price. The Brownings are the yugo's of shotguns compared to the Perazzi's.]

Ha! I said A VERY USED one, because he said he was going to parkerize it!

By the way, Yugos are just as deadly as Pintos if you happen to be riding in one. It is the driver that counts.

New Beretta Whitewing for $900 if you shop around.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 3:40:40 PM EST
It appears that Dano523 made a post on this thread on 7-18-03 at 8:52:27 hours PM but I am unable to see this post. Am I crazy or is the site screwed up. Please advise in that I am always anxious to read Dano's very informative posts. MIKE.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 6:17:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike103:
It appears that Dano523 made a post on this thread on 7-18-03 at 8:52:27 hours PM but I am unable to see this post. Am I crazy or is the site screwed up. Please advise in that I am always anxious to read Dano's very informative posts. MIKE.

it means he made a post and then deleted it. since he was the last entry to the thread (even though nothing is there) his name stays on the list as the last person to post here
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 6:35:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dano523:

The action is one of sloppiest, when opened, on the market. The triggers are mechanical with way too much creep and break at over 6lbs. Plus, since the butt stock is too short for shooting games, the shotgun kicks like hell.

and ummmmmmmmmmmmm.....
The action feels loose as they are designed to be easy opening guns( they open easy, but there is no slop in the action), I am 6'1 and the stock fits me just fine, they gun kicks you hard, because it does not fit you. I have fired many thousands of rounds out of my Red Label with no problems, and no slop has developed. They are as TOUGH as nails as are most all Ruger products. I would put it up against my Browning, or Weatherby any day of the weak. Shotgun triggers are meant to snap, not light crisp pulls like on a rifle. My only gripe about the Ruger is the automatic safety, takes some gettin used to.

The all weather version of the Red Label looks like a PIMP'S gun.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 8:56:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2003 9:27:13 PM EST by Dano523]
Oh where to begin?

A milled receiver should be tight, both open and closed, not flopping around like the action has been shot out (it's a Milled receiver, not stamped parts thrown together). The first trigger on a sporting shotgun should break at 3 1/2 lbs, the second at 3-1/4lbs not 6lbs. The trigger should be crisp, not needing to be pulled 1/4" plus before breaking. You should only have to time your swing, not the delay in the triggers due to creep. The trigger reset length should be in the 1/8" range, not 1/2" plus back travel before reset. Granted that you snap the triggers (pull triggers), but it should be a firm short snap, not a travel threw time and space.

As for fit, the stock is too short, not long. So in regards to having the gun fit, you must of changed the recoil pad. At 6'-1", you butt stock should be around 14 5/8" and not the 14 3/8" that is the factory length. Also, the comb on the shotgun is too low, even on their clay gun. Without a riser, you cannot get the proper check weld, even if you have a long face. Without a tight cheek weld, you would be lucky to break in the teens on the 27 yard line.

As for putting your up against a Browning or Weatherby (read SKB), both are the Yugo's of the shooting world, great old school brand names but lacking serious quality once you pull them apart.

Don't get me wrong, the ruger shotgun works well in the field, as other cheap O/U do, just not as a sporting shotgun that you plan on shooting hundreds of rounds in only a few hours, and needing a POI above the bead (someone needs to clue in Ruger that clay shooters want a gun to shot above the bead, not center of it).

The question is would you put your Ruger up against a Berretta (SO models), Kolar, Keigoff, or a Perazzi for a 500 round practice day, much less a match/shoot were you have over a $1000 in side bets.

P.S. A shooter on our doubles league bought a Ruger, it lasted two shoots and three practices before he retired it and bought a 682(was on a tight budget). After just the second round, the barrel was miraging, and he was flinching from the recoil. Thinking it was him, I tried a round (during the summer). After only half a round, I gave up due to the heat vapors blurring the front bead (trying to see the clay threw the vapors were even worse). As for recoil, it felt like I was shooting ostrich loads, not the 1 1/16 that I shoot in practice.

My suggestion to you is to try and get your hands on a target grade/top dollar O/U and take it for a spin. You will very surprised at the differences.
Link Posted: 7/20/2003 9:16:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/20/2003 9:19:54 PM EST by Dano523]
My post was on the White wing, or rather against him getting it. It would be better to have him start with a 686 action that he could build up on (adjustable comb, changed butt pad, ported barrels, and add a adjustable trigger shoe as he has the sears worked), then sell as he skills outgrew the shotgun.

But looking back over his first post, seeing that he is using a 1100, I was going to suggest that he just went with a 391 that would allow him to adjust the stock to fit his needs, both in POI above bead and swing, by changing out the stock spacers and butt pad without having to send the shotgun to a smith. The only problem with my suggestion would be that this would limit what he could us the new shotgun to shoot (barrel length). Plus, sooner or later we all move up to an O/U. First for looks, them for the two different impact points that the barrels can be set to shoot.

Most of use start off with some sort of O/U field gun, and then modify it to suit our needs. I lucked out by starting with a 101 with only changing the stock set (had a 28" barrels that I just added a center bead, and a adjustable comb to change POI above bead), then moved onto a 3200 as I hit my later teens.

Considering that he has a 1100, it will cover him for skeet and clays, and only needs a single for trap (guessing that he is not shooting doubles), which leads me back to my first post on the BT-99 verses TM-1 that made my whole post mute.

686 Onyx at it's best
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 1:05:26 PM EST
Dano, I know that most people go thru the stages that you describe, modifying a field gun, and from what I have seen they do not shoot much better than they would with a bone stock 1100. That is why I recommend staying with the 1100 until he get some quality trigger time.

A friend just bought a used BT-99. I shot it again yesterday. Started on station five, cleaned it, went to one, cleaned it, went to two and missed all five. After that I cleaned three and four. I liked the gun except, the stock was too short for me, and the rib was low and the comb was too low for me but that can be adjusted. The barrel heated up and I could see the vapors. I would like a higher rib. What specifically do you not like about the gun? MIKE.
Link Posted: 7/21/2003 2:33:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/21/2003 2:35:10 PM EST by Dano523]
It's not so much that I don't care for the BT-99, it's just for the money, you can get a lot more shotgun, such as a TM-1 (my first single was a Ithaca imported TM-1). On the BT-99, my biggest bitch is that the trigger pack is fixed, so you have to pull the stock to oil and check it. The feature is not mandatory for trap guns, but is a real relief when you are having problems on the line and you can just drop in a new trigger pack, instead of having to go to a back up shotgun that you haven't shot in ages.

As for as Browning brand goes, I have a back up/travel 32" Special trap (Grade I with Grade 3 wood, heavily worked over with cast added). Since this is a back up/loaner gun, I left the pull triggers on the gun. When I pulled the action apart to set the sear break points, the FCG group was very rough. Browning needs to spend a little more time on internal finishes on their shotguns, and their grade I wood leaves a lot to be desired.

Mike, I guess that it comes down to money. If you can find a used one for $600, then going hog wild to get it to fit you isn't bad, but when your spending in the $1200 range, there are other shotguns on the market that suit the needs of a singles trap shooter, and hold there retail value over the long haul.

Also, it's just a matter of time before every trap shooter upgrades to a double with an extra single barrel to start shooting doubles. This saves on the cost of having to have two shoguns fitted to you. If you’re looking to start shooting doubles, then you may want to check out the 682. The Beretta’s have a low profile action, and a natural feel, unlike the Browning that seem to be dead in my hands until the stock sets have been worked over.

P.S. I'm a huge fan of fancy stock sets (wood).

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