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Posted: 1/3/2003 12:39:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 12:57:05 PM EST by Lumpy196]
I just got done looking at my friends new SAR1. He got a hell of a deal from a guy. A nearly new gun, a usable sling, five 30 rounders and a couple hundred rounds of ammo for $300 even. He's always loved shooting my AR's and has been dying for one for years. However, with a so-so paying job, and two kids to feed, AR's were just out of his price range.

This got me to thinking (which I normally avoid), how sad is it that it's easier for the average hard working American to afford the gun most chosen by the enemies of our nation, than the service rifle thats used to guarantee our freedom? Are AR's REALLY that expensive to make compared to AK's. Is there any reason why there couldnt be a high quality AR on the market for $450?
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:49:40 PM EST
I'll say that with the factorys having the tooling already over there for the AK that it is probably easier to produce the AK than it is to make an AR here. And the labor force in the old comblock countrys is paid less than a comparable US labor force.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 12:58:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 12:59:21 PM EST by CAMPYBOB]
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:15:35 PM EST
Isn't the military cost of AR's (M16) less than $250?
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:27:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 1:31:10 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Damn Campy, you got me again. I meant to post this on AR15.com. LOL

edited to add: (Btw, my AR's have all been TOTALLY reliable, hellaciously accurate, and reportedly do a smidge more on the recieving end than poke a clean neat hole. My AK's are fantastic plinkers.)
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 2:36:12 PM EST
Last I checked, the US M16 was listed for around $500 and the US M4 was slightly less - about $425 - per actually government prices - what they pay - that was a couple years ago though. AK's are reliable - but are one of the only type of firearms I continue to sell off whenever I buy one. My personal likes/dislikes in firearms don't side with the Kalashnikov family. All my AR's are 100% reliable and accurate -and the ergonomics are MUCH better. If I had to choose, I wouldn't feel inept owning an AK - if your perspective is a gun as a tool - the AK qualifies quite well - keeping in mind that all firearms have their strengths and weaknesses.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 3:09:40 PM EST
This is an interesting topic. I'm sure a high quality AR could be built in a foreign country for alot less money..... American workers just demand a higher pay to meet a higher cost of living. I think firearms manufacturers would even consider moving their production overseas if not for the import/shipping restrictions.

I still find it interesting that I can go into my local gun shop and buy a new Bushy LEO M-4 AR-15 for about $600.00 when a non-LEO post ban AR-15 costs $750.00-$900.00 in the same shop.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 3:20:11 PM EST
Ask yourself this... how much of the cost of domestic civilian rifles is derived from excise taxes on manufactured weapons, mark up between several levels of retailers and wholesalers, as well as liability and insurance issues... damn we like to sue firearms manufacturers as a society don't we?

When Colt or Bushmaster or whomever builds a rifle for government contract most of those issues disappear as well as the introduction of economies of scale.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 5:24:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By J_Smith:
Last I checked, the US M16 was listed for around $500 and the US M4 was slightly less - about $425 - per actually government prices - what they pay - that was a couple years ago though. AK's are reliable - but are one of the only type of firearms I continue to sell off whenever I buy one. My personal likes/dislikes in firearms don't side with the Kalashnikov family. All my AR's are 100% reliable and accurate -and the ergonomics are MUCH better. If I had to choose, I wouldn't feel inept owning an AK - if your perspective is a gun as a tool - the AK qualifies quite well - keeping in mind that all firearms have their strengths and weaknesses.



I do not know what the current USG prices for these weapons are, but my agency is in a program that allows us to purchase weapons through Rock Island for the GSA price. Here is the latest breakdown I have (an approximation; I don't have the pamphlet in front of me):

-M16A1 $330; 3-4 weeks
-M16A2 $620; 3-4 weeks
-M16A4 $800; 12 months
-M4 $800; 12 months
-M4A1 $900; 21 months

For straight M16s, it is not a bad deal, and they said they could actually get M16A1s to us within about a week of receipt of funds. The M4A1 prices and wait times are a little out there; I could get them from a distributor for less and only have to wait 3-6 months (less if I found somebody who had some in stock).
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 9:28:36 PM EST
also the companys making AKs have a huge glut of surplus parts they can use.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 9:44:45 PM EST
I got my AR for around $550 or so after shipping & tax... $125 for the lower, and Oly was having a sale on 20" PCR-4 kits... The upper/lower were forged, and I probably could have come in under $500 with cheap cast parts, but that's a little too much penny pinching...
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 10:18:20 PM EST
[patriotic speech mode] Seriously, I was being more philosophical with this post than anything. The M16/AR15 AND the AK series of rifle are both GOOD. If they weren't they wouldn't be the two standards the rest of the worlds intermediate-cartridge assault rifles are judged by. The fact that we can all make strong arguments as to why either is the better gun proves that. I was coming at it more from the patriotic standpoint. Right or wrong, it IS our military's small arm of choice, and in all likelihood the LAST American Service rifle private citizens will be able to own a legal version of. Granted it doesn't have the nostalgia of the M1 Garand, but a lot of good American's in the last 30 years have bleed and died while clutching The Black Rifle. [/patriotic speech mode]

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 10:56:37 PM EST
got my SAR1 + 2 30 rounders for $258 brand new.
BUILT my AR 16" for a little under $500, i do think there is some thing wrong with that, but hey when we live in sue happy culture we have to pay for it i guess.
I would just like to see the price of garands and m1 crbines come down, those guns are way way over priced.
-Jesse
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 4:25:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By M1898_8MM:
got my SAR1 + 2 30 rounders for $258 brand new.
BUILT my AR 16" for a little under $500, i do think there is some thing wrong with that, but hey when we live in sue happy culture we have to pay for it i guess.
I would just like to see the price of garands and m1 crbines come down, those guns are way way over priced.
-Jesse



I think for $500 dollars for a USGI garand from CMP is a very good price.You are purchaseing a piece of American history.The reciever is Hammer Forged as most all the parts are forged.I would think if the rifle was made today new to the same specs it would be $900-$1000 .Just my opinion . War Dawg
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 4:54:33 AM EST
I'm a whore when it comes to gun, I like 'em all.

The more I am exposed to AKs, the more I have come to think of them as "The People's Rifle."

It's not a bad thing to like AKs fellas. An inexpensive, reliable and battle tested platform is nothing to sneer at.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:03:19 AM EST
If we are talking about Commblock Real AKs, or The IMI Galils or Finnish Valmets, that is one thing, but do not confuse those with the new breed of canted sights , bent pistons and crappy US fire control parts bargain Century Crappola.

If you buy a "bargain" AK you might get lucky and have a nice weapon, but if you get a basic one and have to replace FCG, Piston and get bored with the furniture, and want a side scope rail and so on. It will cost you just as much as a nice postban AR.

Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:10:27 AM EST
AR prices seem to be getting cheaper and AK prices seem to be getting more expensive.

I still would like to take a few full auto presents home from Somalia. I imagine both both AK's & M-16's would cost less than $300.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 10:04:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ariel:
If we are talking about Commblock Real AKs, or The IMI Galils or Finnish Valmets, that is one thing, but do not confuse those with the new breed of canted sights , bent pistons and crappy US fire control parts bargain Century Crappola.

If you buy a "bargain" AK you might get lucky and have a nice weapon, but if you get a basic one and have to replace FCG, Piston and get bored with the furniture, and want a side scope rail and so on. It will cost you just as much as a nice postban AR.




I have preban ARs and high end Bulgarian AKs, including a custom built Bulgy 5.45 Krinkov...

Having said that, a SAR or Romak highcap is a damn fine rifle for the money. Maybe they aren't pretty but they do go bang every time. I have a SAR2 and a Romak2. Both came with optics rails installed. To change the FCG is a $40-$80 fix depending on whether you want just a basic quality US package or if you want to go for an adjustable two stage trigger like the Red Star Arms.

Just check your weapon out first, or order from a reputable company that will stand behind it. $300 shipped and trasnfered at your dealer is a steal. Throw in $50 to fix the trigger and you have a rifle that will outlive you.
Link Posted: 1/6/2003 9:59:03 PM EST
about 5 of us friends and family went in on a small group purchase of SAR-1s. mine looked like it had served a tour as a tent peg, canted sight post and all. most looked hidiously rough but functioned perfectly. however, my cousin got a rifle that looked like the flagship marketing piece from the factory. this thing is PERFECT, beautiful wood, dark black even finish that looks like an AR, not a speck of excess cosmoline. awesome piece for $260. ive never seen one like it. its even nicer than my cherry MAK-90. that being said, i think one of the factors in AR pricing is the demand. people are simply willing to pay for them. i wish i had bought a few of the TAPCO M16 kits when they were available and id like to see more kits hit the market. maybe re-imported A1 kits or something. its entirely possible to build a decent AR for $500
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 6:46:06 PM EST
AR forged receiver, ak stamped. just one factor
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 7:07:01 PM EST
I know exactly what you mean.. I have been meaning to finish the first AR ive built.. just need the upper and BC.. the closer the day comes to go buy one.. < working to hard > the more I see myself simply buying the AK .. just cause it will be a complte rifle..
Link Posted: 1/7/2003 8:36:50 PM EST
mattsd, AKM's are stamped, AK-47's are forged and milled.....

Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Classic, a very close clone (doesn't have a go-fast switch and you can't mount a bayonet) of the original AK-47.

Link Posted: 1/8/2003 3:01:28 AM EST
...." GOD BLESS THE U.S.A.".........
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 6:28:10 AM EST
From what I have seen in the Army, the Gov't pays about $450-500 for an M-16 or M-4. Price for a new production AK-100 series from Russia is about $200. Romanians are less the $100. Considering that the average American makes 10x the average Russian or Romanian, the M-16 is pretty cheap.

I have also seen the prices of some of these new American made AKs. Even with cheap imported parts, and cheap exploited imported labor, the dealer price is still almost the same as most ARs.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 12:51:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By Stottman:
From what I have seen in the Army, the Gov't pays about $450-500 for an M-16 or M-4. Price for a new production AK-100 series from Russia is about $200. Romanians are less the $100. Considering that the average American makes 10x the average Russian or Romanian, the M-16 is pretty cheap.

I have also seen the prices of some of these new American made AKs. Even with cheap imported parts, and cheap exploited imported labor, the dealer price is still almost the same as most ARs.



The cost of producing a quality Bulgarian AK is probably less than $50, Romanian under $25. Machining is far less expensive, labor costs are lower, tort system isn't screwed up beyond hope. The Romanians can probably purchase 20 AK-74s for the price of one M4... They are stamped steel, a few rivets, a trigger group, stock, trunions, bolt/carrier and barrel. None of which are works of art, but more than durable and functional.
Link Posted: 1/8/2003 4:43:50 PM EST
I will never buy a complete AR. Manufactuirers have to pay the federal excise tax of 11% I beleive. You can buy a kit for around $430 and what the equipment exchange for a lower around $100 or less. Figure another $20 for a transfer and $10 for shipping on the kit.That should put you at less than $550. I have watched the equipment xchange for deals and slowly put a rifle together for $450.

The kits have a assembled and test fired upper. Put your lower together and function test then head to the range. With the money you save over a commercialy manufactured AR you can put alot of money towards ammo and mags.

Just my two cents

Cruizer
Link Posted: 1/9/2003 4:26:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By HiramRanger:
The cost of producing a quality Bulgarian AK is probably less than $50, Romanian under $25. Machining is far less expensive, labor costs are lower, tort system isn't screwed up beyond hope. The Romanians can probably purchase 20 AK-74s for the price of one M4... They are stamped steel, a few rivets, a trigger group, stock, trunions, bolt/carrier and barrel. None of which are works of art, but more than durable and functional.



The Germans of WWII built weapons rather cheaply also with the free slave labor. WD
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