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Posted: 12/31/2002 9:20:09 PM EST
I'm fairly new to shooting, I haven't been doing it for long enough to do anything truly stupid. But it's certainly always in my mind what could happen even with the smallest or most short-lived slip of the brain.

I know that there are plenty of horror stories out there (the guy up in these parts who got filthy drunk and shot his downstairs neighbor through the floor) but I want to know how many of you have made your guns go *bang* when you didn't want to. Given human nature, I'd guess it's just a matter of minimizing how often it happens and the repercussions when it does, what I want to know is how often it actually happens.

And it's fine if your posts are something on the order of "I'VE never done that, but I had a friend who..." ;)
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:32:43 PM EST
Not to get nitpicky, but there is almost no such thing as an accidental discharge. NEGLIGENT discharges are what you are looking for.

OK, so it was a little nitpicky.

The only accidental discharge I have seen was when a friend's M16 cooked off two rounds - safety on, finger off the trigger, pointed in a safe direction.

I was also present when a former friend (emphasis on former) had a negligent discharge. I had just finished cleaning and reloading a Beretta 92FS when he came over to my house. My roommate called me from the living room so I put it down and told him "Don't touch that, it's loaded."

The idiot picked it up and shot a hole in my bed. Said he didn't think it would go off. I kicked him out of the house while I could still restrain myself from kicking his ass.


Someone will eventually post that everyone has a ND at some point in his/her life (this is not the first thread on the subject), but I know that I never will. ALWAYS be careful and it will never happen to you.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:33:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 9:35:54 PM EST by Lazyshooter]
Never happened to me, but a very knowledgeable guy at a gun shop a few years ago was trying to talk a couple that bought a Ruger 22 pistol into getting some professional instruction, as they hadn't ever owned a firearm before. They didn't really think they would have to, thinking the owner's manual would probably suffice. The gun shop employee, to put a little "good fear" into them told of the time he reholstered his 45 auto and didn't have the safety on and had his finger on the trigger when he reholstered. Well, you can imagine what happened, the gun discharged down the outside of his leg and he was lucky that all he got was a long scar.

He said he was always anal about safety, but something at the time had distracted him and he made a huge mistake. The couple got the message and got info. on where to get proper instruction.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:46:08 PM EST
The only time it happened to me, EVER, was when I was in the Army. M-60, on the range, hot barrel, cooked off a few rounds. I own numerous firearms and shoot often but have never had any "accidental discharges." I have had a few misfires, misfeeds, and a few misplaced shots...
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:15:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 4:16:48 AM EST by warlord]
I was at my local indoor shooting range, and a rental tubular magazine pump 22LR came back, I believe it was TimberWolf. The counter-guy rack the slide, pulled the trigger, and click; repeated the aftermentioned process, and BANG! Shot a hole in a vending machine. We had to put some black electrical tape to cover the hole. Apparently a 22LR round was stuck in the tube mag, and didn't come feed until the second rack; moral of the story, always point your gun in a safe direction even though you think its empty. Some one could've gotten seriously hurt.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 4:23:44 AM EST
I had a hunting buddy putting his guns away in the back of my suburban while we were driving
down the street. Boom! through the seat and floor, we never found the slug. I don't hunt with him anymore.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 10:59:41 AM EST
Its never happened to me, EVER

But thats only because I fear it so much that I take extreme extra steps to prevent it. When handling a unloaded weapon, I keep the bolt locked back and check the chamber about 400 times a hour, it scares me.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 12:16:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 12:17:06 PM EST by Shadowblade]

Originally Posted By MadProfessor:
Its never happened to me, EVER

But thats only because I fear it so much that I take extreme extra steps to prevent it. When handling a unloaded weapon, I keep the bolt locked back and check the chamber about 400 times a hour, it scares me.



Exactly. Though I only check the chamber once, then again about 2 seconds later. If I put the weapon down for any reason it gets checked again when I pick it up just in case it has magically loaded itself.

I have promoted the same habits in my son.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 2:11:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By MadProfessor:
Its never happened to me, EVER

But thats only because I fear it so much that I take extreme extra steps to prevent it. When handling a unloaded weapon, I keep the bolt locked back and check the chamber about 400 times a hour, it scares me.


When I have a gun out, I always take out the mag, lock the slide back or open the bolt and check the chamber. Sometimes to dry fire etc, I do close the bolt, but when I put it down, it is always slide locked back or open bolt open, period. It not being paranoid, it is just being safe. One day something is going to happen, it will probably save me the trouble of changing my underwear.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 2:18:33 PM EST
had a mossberg .22 slamfire (safety on, finger off trigger) after i ejected a misfire. rifle was pointed downrange.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 2:57:51 PM EST
I grew up with firearms so my family lives breathes and sleeps gun safety but did witness a few.

Negligent

First one was taking my buddies to the range as a kid and on the way back one plugged a hole in the ceiling of the car. Got major punishment for that and learned a valuable lesson. Not everyone knows basic gun rules.

The worst was in basic training. The early M16's didn't have brass deflectors. They were detachable and usually given to the lefties. One guy forgot his, left hand firer, got some hot brass down his blouse. He stood up screaming squeezing off a round killing the guy next to him. Turns out it was his best friend that joined on the buddy system.

There were a number of others in the Army but that was the only one I personally saw. Saw alot of aftermath though.

Accidental

I've seen a number of revolvers without hammer blocks dropped and go off. One kid got one through the leg as a result. Thats why the cowboys left the hammer cylnder empty.

Accidently on purpose is a whole other post.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:37:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 6:37:46 PM EST by Confederate]
It happens to me all the time, but my wife says its ok, it happens to a lot of guys.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 8:01:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Confederate:
It happens to me all the time, but my wife says its ok, it happens to a lot of guys.



ROFLMAO!!!! That's a classic!

Call this what you will, accidental or negligent, but here's what happened to me: I was starting to squeeze off a round at a target when I squeezed and nothing happened (the trigger didn't budge). So I sit up, look and the safety is on. Well I flicked the safety off and bang goes the rifle! Luckily I am safe and it went into the backstop.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 4:58:57 AM EST
A couple of stories from my Army days;

Ft Benning GA., 1982. Trainee turns in his weapon and shoots the armorer in the gut. Armorer survives, but the weapon should have been rodded three times before reaching the arms room.

Honduras 1987. My reserve unit was OPCON to the DC Guard and those people could f**k up a wet dream. A DC troop is clearing his 1911 and it discharges between the feet of one of out troops. Later in the mission we are getting ready to move form the base camp tot he airfield to go home and one of our guys takes his M-60, sits down on the bus, and blows a hole through the roof. He never checked his weapon for safety.

Houston TX, 1990. USCG puddle pirate drops his M-16 and accidentally jacks a round into the chamber. Puts the rifle away on his vessel without clearing it. The next day someone takes it out and blows a hole in the side of the boat.

More Houston TX, 1990. One of our home grown morons is standing in the access control trailer drawing down on the vehicles with an
M-16 as they enter the port. He is on the side of the trailer used for off duty troops rotating through the guard posts, so everyone else has their headgear pulled down for some shuteye. His weapon goes off and puts a round through the windshield of a Blazer, through the hardhat of the driver, grazes the drivers head, and exits the rear of the vehicle for parts unknown.

All were 100% preventable. I've got more but these stand out.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:30:26 AM EST
It's great to know that there are plenty of people out there who sweat over the prospect of a ND as much as I do. Of course, that's more than cancelled out by the seemingly endless supply of people who DON'T sweat it.

Here's one for y'all: are firearm incidents more or less frequent in the military than they are with civilian shooters (per capita)? Or, put another way, does military firearm safety training manage to make up for the fact that weapons are so prevalent in that environment?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 8:55:21 AM EST
ND - I was at a handgun class. We were doing some CQB stuff. This particular drill involved drawing from the holster while throwing a strike at the assailant, firing from retention while backing away and transitioning to standard firing position. When I started to back up, I had fired 2 or 3 from retention and as I was transitioning to standard position, I let one go. It looked like just a really crappy shot, but in effect it was a ND. I was probably the only one who knew.

AD - I had just bought a preban M4gery and went to the range to check it out. I fired off about 5 controlled shots, had my finger off the trigger and lowered the rifle down off my line of sight. BANG! I nearly lost control of my bowels. I raised it up, took aim and squeezed off another. I waited a reasonable amount of time. Nothing. Just as I was lying the gun on the bench, BANG! After the first AD I did not touch the safety since wanted to see if it went off again. At that point I pulled out the mag, cycled the action about ten times and examined the gun. It turned out that the the hammer pin was loose and walked its way out partially. After a shot was fired and the trigger reset, the hammer was hanging on for dear life (sideways) and eventually slipping off the nose of the trigger.
I took it apart at home and noticed some pretty uneven wear on the disconnector, hammer, and trigger. So I replaced the fire control group and put in some anti-walk pins. Problem solved.

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:11:11 AM EST
Shooting almost 30 years, 10 years in the USMC, never had a negligent or unintentional discharge myself but have seen plenty. A neighbor down the street has them all the time, at least 2 last year and ended up shooting his stupid ass in the foot with a 38 special. Even though I am all for gun rights, I see examples of certain persons that should not be allowed to own guns as they are a danger to society and themselves and constantly prove it with negligent discharges.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:42:51 AM EST
You can follow all 4 basic gun safety rules, be totally anal (and I mean that in a good way ) and still have one. It's like pilots with gear up landings: there are only two kinds of pilots, those who have, and those who will. My last one personally was much the same as TWIRE's. Muzzle discipline keeps us looking good, eh

Last one I saw was an AD. Supervised hot range, I was the RO. The shooter was on the line, changing mag's in preparation for the next course of fire. When he racked the charging handle he had a slam-fire. We watched that weapon like a hawk for the rest of the day, but no more slam-fires. Shit happens, and someday we'll all be members of the "shit that was loud" club. With luck our muzzles will always be pointed in a safe direction.

This is not to say that there is no place for training and discipline. I had the good fortune to recently attend a 2-day course by a famous instructor. 20 of us shot 700 rounds each, 14,000 rounds total that weekend, in a high-intensity, high-stress learning environment. Not a single AD or ND. This is in contrast to the number of new holes that appear in the overhead of our range with the covered firing positions each weekend...
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 11:48:22 AM EST
I'm fairly anal about gun safety and keeping the barrel pointed in a safe direction all the time. Will I have an accidental discharge (misoperation of the weapon with it firing when I don't have a finger on the trigger), I hope not, but you can't control when that will happen very well. You CAN control the outcome of it, by practicing safe weapons operations.

A local forensics expert just shot himself in the chest while inspecting a rifle. Very critical condition. He was the head of the department, and had probably inspected over 1,000 firearms during the past 5 years.

ALWAYS assume that the gun is loaded, and that it's going to go off at any minute.

Mark in Utah
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 3:40:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 3:54:01 PM EST by Duke76]
It has happened to me..... once, about 20 years ago when I was a young lad. While deer hunting, I shot a nice 6-point buck and as I approached the animal I chambered another round into my 30.06. In all the excitement of my first kill and the size of the deer, I totally forgot about the round I chambered. As I was hiking/dragging the deer out of the woods and down an embankment after dressing it out, I accidentally snagged the gun trigger on something and it went BOOM! I felt the muzzle flash on the side of my face as the gun was slung low on my shoulder. When the ringing in my ears stopped, I realized that I came real close to blowing my own head off. I am lucky to have come away from that incident with my life and learned a very valuable lesson that day in the woods. I have never even come close to another A.D. however, since then I have witnessed three A.D.'s among other shooters. Two of them were from not keeping their finger indexed and the third was from not realizing the weapon was loaded. I hear alot of horror stories about A.D.'s and cringe everytime I hear one. I think this is one of those things that is important to talk about and share experiences, so that others can learn that it can happen to anyone..... even if you think you are super carefull. All it takes is one brain fart.... you all know you've had them one time or another.

One of my tactical rifle instructors once told me "if you shoot alot, you have either had an A.D. or will have an A.D. in the future"..... a good reason to always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe dirrection. Be safe!
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:04:46 PM EST
Had a guy put one in the dirt about 3 feet in front of me while shooting a semi-auto. Friend of a friend invited to the range with us, new to shooting, got stupid and lowered the pistol with his finger, of course, on the trigger. I was standing to his right when he cranked off the round. I and my other two friends removed the pistol from his hand and banished him to the car for the rest of the range trip. Every time he approached the firing line we reached for our sidearms. He got the point. Never did see him again.....
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:26:19 PM EST
I put a round into the chamber of an Oly AR, it went off with the safety on and no finger on the trigger. Scared the shit out of me. Also, made me thank god I had the gun pointed up and down range. I sent the gun to a smith in Arizona and he replaced the bolt, worked fine after that.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:31:40 PM EST
There is no such things as accidental discharge in the Marine Corps. Just negligent discharge. There is a difference. All you have to do is ask a Marine.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 7:11:05 PM EST
first and last happened when I was 16.. it was the stupidist thing ive ever done.. I found one of my dads guns, a .38 rev for some unknown reason <... no.. the reason was that I thaught It looked cool in the mirror> I started pulling back the hammer and sqeezing the triger and thumbing the hammer down.. Man I tell you I thaught I was the shit too.. after a couple of minutes of this dumbass shit I decieded I was cool enough for the day and went to decock the hammer and the damn thing sliped from my thumb and BANG!!! < I was so suprised that it wasnt even loud,,,I just stod there thinking.. damn Mom is going to kill me if I shot myself!!!> hole in the cieling!!! NO one ever did find out,,, but it did change forever the way I handled firearms from that day forward.

I did end talking my dad into taking us shooting and made sure my younger brother was aware of firearm safty.

Has happened to me once.. and I learned my lesson. to this day.. I get handed a weapon.. I clear it.. I put it down then pick it up later... I clear it.. Friends and family go shooting with me I stress the rules and then make them clear it before they hand it to me and again when I handit back.

Yes ive had a ND .. not proud of it,, but yes it happened and I think it changed completely the way I saw firearms for the rest of my life.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 7:47:46 PM EST
None yet. I'm really anal about checking the chamber 2 or 3 times before I handle any gun. It might be overkill, but better safe than dead.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 8:41:51 PM EST
When I was growing up, I was taught:

Never hand someone a firearm with a closed action...when someone hands you a firearm, check the action twice, and one you are sure it is unloaded, treat it as if it is loaded with the safety off.

My father taught me, I taught my wife, and I look forward to teaching my kids.

I've been lucky so far, but if one ever does go off unexpectedly, you can be damn sure it won't be pointed at anyone.


Tony
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 11:19:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 11:20:44 PM EST by gt6plus]
U.S. Army, Panama (TDY)

Watched a Lieutenant at the clearing barrel.

We all carried weapons, mags loaded, in the mag well, but no rounds in the chamber. Standard procedure for M.P.'s.

He stands at the barrel, racks his slide... "BANG".

Looks cross eyed at his weapon, racks the slide again, ejects a live round.... "Bang"

Third time racking his weapon, my squad leader yells "You have to drop the mag... SIR"
(add lot's of sarcasm to that, and lot's of snickering from the troops)


At least he pointed it at the clearing barrel....

edited for spelling
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 2:53:57 AM EST
USMA,

What was the root cause of your OLY missfire? Was the pin stuck forward?

Thanks
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 4:29:10 AM EST
All of you who posted that it would "never" happen to you, here is a question:

Have ever used the decocker on a weapon? I have had guns fire 2 times while doing this. One was a Bersa .380 that had the firing pin broken in half, the other was a P-38, they have a reputation for it. Both times they fired harmlessly into the ground where they were pointed.


McBalming
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 5:20:22 AM EST
That is what I teach to my junior program...

It must be instinct to chamber check EVERYTIME a gun comes into your hands.....even if it has only been out for 4 seconds. That way if a gun ever does come into your hands in a unsafe condition you are sure to catch it. It becomes second nature...

I like to say its like flushing a toilet...you do not do it conciously....you just do it.


Link Posted: 1/4/2003 5:34:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stormbringer2:
I like to say its like flushing a toilet...you do not do it conciously....you just do it.



Good discussion, all...

We need to be careful that chamber checks do not become totally reflexive, i.e. we can't just go through the mechanics without actually registering in our brain what the condition of the chamber is. My instructors always mandate that we physically stick a finger in the chamber to verify it tactilly (sp?) as well as visually. This helps break any reflexive tunnel vision, and it's the only method that works in low light.

In contrast to weapons that are put away unloaded, I've been taught that in a carry weapon chamber checks are merely an unecessary opportunity for an ND. At best only necessary after chambering a round to confirm that one is indeed chambered. For example, my carry Glock lives in its holster. The holster, gun and all, goes straight from my pants to the safe, and back again, without the weapon ever leaving the holster and the trigger guard becoming uncovered (a holstered weapon is a safe weapon). The less you handle the weapon, the lower the fumble factor, the less of a chance for an ND.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 6:20:22 AM EST
I had an old Springfield sporterized Elk rifle which had a problem with the bolt. It would sometimes go off when the safety was clicked off.
It was real dangerous and I only hunted with it for a couple more years. I would chamber a round only if I had an animal actually in view.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:19:23 AM EST
I've had a nd.It happened while lowering the hammer on live round. I knew about round in the chamber but my thumb slipped. Bout SHIT my pants, safe muzle direction even if everything else gets on my Dumbass stupid people tricks list.
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