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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 12/18/2005 6:58:34 PM EDT
Hello, I am new here. I am writing to ask about my first "black rifle". I am an avid hunter and own multiple shotguns; rifles in bolt, lever and pump actions and a few pistols both wheel and auto loaders and CCW in Missouri on a regular basis. However, I do not own a black rifle of any kind. I have fired and am considering both the FAL and AR in carbine configurations. Being a deer hunter I am leaning towards the FAL but have a couple of friends who own M-4's. Here are my considerations....I am a husband and father of two, I have a short 870 for HD and CCW a .40 S&W. I basically want this rifle for "worst case" scenarios, something I can take with me and my bail out bag and fend off the bad guys in a last ditch effort. I also want this rifle for general plinking, varmint, possibly deer, etc. I can only afford one rifle so it must be extremely versatile...I am a function over form guy every time. I need something that will take a beating, is easy to maintain and ammo is cheap and readily available. I do not plan on scoping this or doing heavy mods, just iron sites and a sling. Can anyone advise one way or the other as this is mostly greek to me.

Thanks in advance!!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:19:25 PM EDT
FAL
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 7:31:57 PM EDT
+1 FAL. Rugged, dependable, reliable, high caliber. Will kill anything you need to die.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:17:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 72shorty:
Here are my considerations....I am a husband and father of two, I have a short 870 for HD and CCW a .40 S&W. I basically want this rifle for "worst case" scenarios, something I can take with me and my bail out bag and fend off the bad guys in a last ditch effort.

AR15. You probably won't be popping bad guys at 600 yards (could you even do that without a scope?) in a defensive situation. It will likely happen pretty close and may involve multiple targets. Fast follow up shots, high capacity, and good close range ballistics (with proper ammo) make the AR the king of CQB. Not only does the low recoil make for very fast follow up shoots, you're wife can handle it as well.


I also want this rifle for general plinking, varmint, possibly deer, etc.
I think the AR fills this exact need better than any other rifle on the planet. No, it's not the best cartridge for deer, but you said it's only a possibility, and an AR WILL take a deer if you do your part.

The AR is also the best HD weapon as well. After penetrating an interior wall, the 5.56 round is less lethal than a .308, handgun round, or shotgun round (except light bird shot). Something to think about since you have kids.

Both are great weapons. The advantages the FAL has over the AR are the ability to shoot through cover (although not a good thing for HD) and the 7.62's long range energy (like I said, how far will you be shooting in defense). Whichever you decide to get, train hard with it, and you can overcome most shortcomings it may have.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:29:34 PM EDT
BOTH of course!

AR for HD/SD

FAL (or AR10) for deer and long range takedown
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:24:19 AM EDT
I can't find one thing that I disagree with on "topgun20"s reply but I still would have to say FAL. I have both an Imbel FAL and Bushy M4 & both will fill the bill with regard to your needs. However, I think the FAL will do everything the AR can do & more due to the 7.62 caliber.

Either way, honestly, you can't really make a wrong decision...
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:50:44 AM EDT
You should make plans to come to the next MODCC shoot and look at everything there. Ask lots of questions. If you ask, most people will let you shoot a mag through both Fal and/or AR. If you can't make it, check the hometown forum for MO and see who is in your area and could help. BTW... welcome to the boards.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:03:04 AM EDT
Based on your requirement of a no frills iron sighted work under every condition take a beating gun for to take deer & zombies....

I'd opt for the FAL. Get an 18" barrel though.

Or an AK in 7.62X39.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 6:06:02 AM EDT
BOTH SHOULD BE BANNED!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 12:48:37 PM EDT
FAL......or AK
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:04:11 PM EDT
M4 clone
1. lighter
2. shorter
3. easier to find a well made gun
4. easier to carry more ammo
5. ammo is cheaper
6. has 30 rounds mags
7. less recoil = faster followup shots.
8. more accurate

FAL
1. harder hitting

Looks like the M4 wins 8 to 1
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 2:25:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
M4 clone
1. lighter
2. shorter
3. easier to find a well made gun
4. easier to carry more ammo
5. ammo is cheaper
6. has 30 rounds mags
7. less recoil = faster followup shots.
8. more accurate

FAL
1. harder hitting

Looks like the M4 wins 8 to 1



+1

If you can only have one, the AR wins hands down. The M16 is the most common rifle used by militaries of civilized nations and no one issues the FAL any more.

I have an FAL, but the AR is a much better general purpose weapon.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 3:37:03 PM EDT
Garand, baby!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 4:46:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:15:05 PM EDT
BOTH OF COURSE!!!

But if you can get both then get the FAL.

AR15s are great but it will be nothing more then a range toy if you are a avid hunter in MO. I think the .223 is not legal for hunting, and there is a mag restriction.

The FAL on the other hand is a .308 and will have plenty of power for deer. .223 is fine for deer but my father shot two bucks, one 8 and the other a 9 with a DSA FAL 16" this year.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:25:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:
BOTH OF COURSE!!!

But if you can get both then get the FAL.

AR15s are great but it will be nothing more then a range toy if you are a avid hunter in MO. I think the .223 is not legal for hunting, and there is a mag restriction.

The FAL on the other hand is a .308 and will have plenty of power for deer. .223 is fine for deer but my father shot two bucks, one 8 and the other a 9 with a DSA FAL 16" this year.



Yeah, right, 'cuz that's why we buy ARs and FALs.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:26:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chicken_little:
Garand, baby!



Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:47:45 PM EDT
Get an ak for under 400 then use ur rifles for hunting
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:52:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gks452:
M4 clone
1. lighter
2. shorter
3. easier to find a well made gun
4. easier to carry more ammo
5. ammo is cheaper
6. has 30 rounds mags
7. less recoil = faster followup shots.
8. more accurate

FAL
1. harder hitting

Looks like the M4 wins 8 to 1

Well said. It took me four paragraphs to say the exact same thing
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:40:47 AM EDT
Personally, after owning and shooting AR-15s, AK clones, and FALs, I'd keep them in the following order:


FAL
AK
AR-15


Although I really like my Bushmaster - it's very accurate, and stone reliable - if I had to take 2 rifles out of the safe and beat feet, the Bushy would get left behind...



- georgestrings
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:34:43 AM EDT
FAL. They are not importing kits anymore; if you ever think you'll want a FAL now is the time to get one, when they can be had for as low as $400-$500. ARs will be available, and relatively cheap, pretty much forever (hopefully).
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:57:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SLAPhAPPY1:
Get an ak for under 400 then use ur rifles for hunting



As I was reading your list of requirments, I kept thinking AK all the way. Nothing beats Wolf ammo and AK's for cheap, except sks's
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:02:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:23:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 5:25:07 AM EDT by davidp14]
Kind of a tough choice. I own both and I love them both but for your needs I'd say FAL. Forget about using either for HD you've already got the 870 for that. You really cant use the AR for hunting and in a SHTF situation, I'd want knockdown power, ability to blow cover, and most importantly, relaibility, over light weight and follow-ups. If you build it right you can make a FAL very light weight anyways. I just built one that 7lbs 4oz.

btw: The recoil really isnt that bad in a FAL either. My wife weighs about a buck ten with her boots on and she can manage my FALs fairly well.


Of course you could just .................well, you know.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:34:37 AM EDT
ASSuming killing food is a requirement, you have no choice but to go with the FN.

in a worst case scenario, you may not have access to 5.56mm ammo which is heavy enough to RELIABLY kill big deer.

do you really want your kids to have to pick fragments of m193 out of their dinner?
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:40:00 AM EDT
I finally got to use this one!



Actually- I like te AR platform much better. Better ergonomics and you can get the 6.8 if you want a larger bullett!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 7:21:31 AM EDT
FAL
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 8:52:49 AM EDT

Here are my considerations....I am a husband and father of two, I have a short 870 for HD and CCW a .40 S&W. I basically want this rifle for "worst case" scenarios, something I can take with me and my bail out bag and fend off the bad guys in a last ditch effort.



Screw the M4, go with an AK. More so then anyother weapon in a worst case scenario you'll want an AK. It doesnt need to be cleaned (it should be), which is good considering in a worst case scenario you dont have any cleaning supplies. Its a much more reliable rifle.
The ammo will end up being more abundant. Say the Chinese invade, what kind of ammo are they gonna have the most of? 7.62x39 or .223? 7.62x39.
You can get an underfolding stock, side folding, or collapsible. It can be pimped out in basically everyway an AR can.
True, the M4 will be more accurate then the AK, so I suggest the AK in a more urban enviroment. If you really want to reach out and touch someone, go with a FAL rather then an AR. The FAL should be employed from a distance if possible, its heavier and has a more powerful round, with a slower followup shot. If your a good shooter, the FAL will ensure your target gets a gentle love tap from far away . The FAL is better for defending a large tract of land. IMO.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:24:48 PM EDT
Some great info guys, thanks. I already own a bolt action .270 and lever gun in "thutty thutty" for deer. I just want something that would work for deer in a pinch. To be honest, I like the looks and feel of the AR but I like the .308 in FAL. I am thinking end of the world situation, I can take one gun with me, what will it be.hinking.gif

Keep 'em coming and thanks again!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:48:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/21/2005 4:52:10 PM EDT by barrysuperhawk]
FAL

Just get a standard carbine, no X-stock or folding stock, lotsa mags, and a few cases of that SA surplus .308. Hunding rounds will always be available and can be reloaded, but good, cheap surplus ammo is a finite resource.

The only real reason to buy an AR is if you cannot handle the FAL for any reason. If your wife couldn't handle it, and theoretically during SHTF, she might have to, then get the poodleshooter, or split the difference with an AK. With the FAL, there is less incentive to hang a bunch of shit on it that you don't need.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

M4 clone
1. lighter-------------------->Until you start adding shit to it
2. shorter-------------------->by an inch or 2 over a 3' long rifle..
3. easier to find a well made gun------>opinions vary, look around
4. easier to carry more ammo--------->But you need less .308
5. ammo is cheaper------->Reloads are a bit higher, otherwise the same
6. has 30 rounds mags---------> has 30 round mags, just dosent need them, see #4
7. less recoil = faster followup shots.----> more power= less need for follow ups.
8. more accurate--------> only in HB configuration with a scope [kills 1,2, and 5]

FAL
1. harder hitting--------> OK, I'll give you that...

Looks like the M4 FAL wins 8 to 1



That being said, I own 3 AR's, one AK, and one FAL [#2 is lusted after but not financed]. If the S were to HTF, A-La New Orleans, The FAL would be on my shoulder. The GF would get the AR and my buddy the AK...
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:39:26 PM EDT
Both!
But I'd take the FAL first and foremost!
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:38:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 7:41:22 PM EDT by Dave_A]
AR platform for a first gun, definately...

If you're a 'caliber guy', then gat a '10 or DPMS .308....

Otherwise, start with the '15, learn to shoot with it, and then move on to the FAL later...

The AR-15 is more accurate, has better sights, and is far more versitile in terms of calibers and add-ons, should you become like some of the folks on this site & start buying up the entire gun store...

Further, .223 is a better round to 'learn' with than .308...

The AR-15 (in M16A2 config) was my first rifle...

The FAL is my first .308 semiauto
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:10:02 AM EDT
A lot of interesting & varied viewpoints, here.

Something that influenced my own selection process was "in case of SHTF, Reliability is first priority".

I'm willing to trade a couple of "accuracy_decision_points" for better "Reliability_decision_points"

Tolerance to abuse,
HEAVY_use_while_NOT_cleaning
dropped_in_mudhole,
fed_varying_quality_ammo

, , kinds of stuff that is implicit in SHTF.


, , just a little more to stir the pot

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:30:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2005 9:34:34 AM EDT by SC-Texas]
I beleive the M-4 wins in all the catagories with the exception of ammo cost for battle situations.

The mission wasn't clearly defined either. If its general SHTF and normal combat distances- then I like the M4 hands down.

If we are talking 600 plus yards- then I like a bolt action .50 rifle with a suppresor.


1. lighter


Weight is weight: The reason stuff is mounted on an M4 is to taylor its configuration to the mission. A FAL, when it is properly configured for a mission, will weigh MUCH more than the M4. Sorry, but the M4 wins hands down on this issue and it is a big issue if you have to carry the damned thing. I know becasue I always had a choice of walking around my cgranddad's f213acre farm with my uncles HK91 or CAR-15. Guess which one I carried everyday?


2. shorter


Absolutely- and the collasable stock onthe M4 helps tailer the weapon to the mission and the shooter.


3. easier to find a well made gun


Questionable also- I feel there are more quality dsources for new AR15s than FALs and the parts are more available- rememebr, in a SHTF scenario- you will not be able to mail order parts.


4. easier to carry more ammo

Ammo: Sorry but you are so wrong again its not funny. You can never have enough ammo. Ask anyone who has carried and shot an M60 or an M2 HMG. The more ammo you have, the better off you are in a firefight.


5. ammo is cheaper

Practice ammo- yepp, its a lot cheaper

SHTF Ammo: I doubt 77grn ammo is much cheaper than good 7.62mm ammo



6. has 30 rounds mags

Beats the FAL hands down here- the FAL 30rd mag is big and cumbersome for normal use.



7. less recoil = faster followup shots.


Whomever said that the 7.62 ismore powerful therefore you didn't need a fast f/u shot is probably like me and has never been in a firefight. Sorry, but when engaging one person- you damn sure want to put two into their chest and if your engaging a group, then a FAST f/u shot is helpful in moving to the next target and putting a couple into him or her as the case may be.


8. more accurate


The M4 is definiately more accurate. Just take a new out of hte box M4 out and shoot it next to the New-out of the box FAL. There should be a noticeable difference.

Mike- the mud and heavy use thing: I rememebr readong years ago about dead isreali soldiers found in their desert foxholes witht eh FAL actions weilded open by the sand and environmental conditions. My dad told me stories about his M1 garand in basic and Germany doing the same thing in certain inclement environemtnal conditions.

You have to clean your rifle. Doens't matter what it is.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 5:53:25 PM EDT
You should have 2 of each FAL, AK-47 in 7.62, AR 15 . 10 mags for each total 60 and at least 1000 rounds for each rifle and a set of spare parts for each rifle. That is what I have done with my stash . Never keep'em all in the same location .
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 5:28:48 AM EDT
Howdy!, SC-Texas, good to see you again;
Drop into the other forum, once in a while, and help a Bro.Redneck twist the anti.2A panties up real tight,,
I recently wound 'em up good when I called a video of belt fed fun "Playing with Toys"



I concur with the AR points you make, and you know that I'm certainly not "throwin' sticks" at the AR platform.

I heard about the FAL sand malfs too,,, controversial area.

Of course, ANY machanism will fail, when subjected to conditions extreme enough.

OTOH, if we could set up an "extreme conditions test" with one each AR and FAL in "same foxhole" ,

Blowing sand, freezing rain, hot drop into snowbank, and water puddle,, etc.
, , the whole 9 yards of all the environmental nasties we could think of,

, which one would run longer before it quit?

Link Posted: 12/24/2005 8:12:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTwin60:
Both!
But I'd take the FAL first and foremost!
i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/InFALaBill/100-0001_IMG.jpg



Wow VT those are spotless.

If you go down and the Mrs. doesn't have her own auto weapon, and has to recover with yours, the FAL will be too big IMO. That being said, I have several AR's, an SR25, and multiple AK's, but I would bug out with my FAL.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 3:00:30 PM EDT
I have a DSA 16" carbine and absolutely love it. With high quality ammo I can get 1.25" groups on a good day. Never had any reliability issues and it is easy to break down and clean. Also, due to the muzzle break, recoil is mild and I can put F/U shots on target quiclky. I'm not a big guy either, 5' 7"ish and 150 pounds. Let you know how I feel about the AR after I get my first this spring
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 4:14:06 PM EDT
The obvious answer is Both and a few others.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 6:31:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2005 6:34:12 PM EDT by Gunslinger808]
Both dammit!
Now, I'm tired of the old "an FAL is too big" crowd, so to them I show you:

Accurate, reliable, hard hitting, and just damn sexy (yeah the AR is cool too)!

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