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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/21/2002 7:42:42 PM EDT
Did the AR10 ever see military service? What was the main reason for the adoption of the M16 over the AR10, need for a lighter ammo than the .308? Did the AR10 ever replace any of the .308’s in military service?

After seeing those ArmaLite videos it made me wonder if the AR10 ever did see military service.
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 7:52:18 PM EDT
The AR-10 being tested by the Army had an aluminum sleeved titanium barrel or some such thing, which shattered during testing. The M-14 was adopted. Later, the Air Force made several puchases, and the South Vietnamese really liked it, so it took a round-about route into service. The Army Rangers use the Stoner SR-25, which was designed by Eugene Stoner, unlike the Armalite AR-10.

Some other countries bought them. Can anyone help me on which ones? The Sudan, maybe?
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 8:09:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2002 8:11:57 PM EDT by SouthernShark]
Sudan, Burma and Nicaragua each acquired some of them. I think that Portugal may have bought some of too (not really sure about that though). The AR-10 wasn't really tested against the M14 because the design came so late. The timing is what really killed it. By 1958, when the AR-10 was finally produced, most countries had either adopted the FAL, G3, CETME, or M14. There just wasn't a good enough reason to replace any of those rifles with the AR-10. I hadn't heard of the titanium barrel problems, but this would have been an easy fix and I'm sure that everyone knew how to replace the barrel. The real problem was that everybody already had a rifle chambered for 7.62NATO.


-SS
Link Posted: 3/21/2002 11:39:07 PM EDT
Portugal did indeed buy some AR10s and a few found their way, through Portugal's colonial interests in Africa, into the conflicts on that continent. Allegedly the AR10, while rare, is/was highly prized there.

The Netherlands also manufactured the AR10 briefly.

These versions are all later designs than the ill-fated titanium barrel version.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 4:24:46 AM EDT
I used to have one of the original Armalite AR-10s. It was a Sudanese version. It was basically the production version of the one in the video. The biggest probelm was finding a place that would actually produce them. They finally started making them in the Netherlands, but by that time it was an ill-fated rifle. It's too bad too as mine was a dynamite .308. Frankly, it had all the problems that early AR-15/M16s had, but if it had some development, it would have been great. Actually, it would have probably turned out pretty close to what the currrent Armalite makes.

As for the titanium barrel, that was on very few test prototypes only. The production ones had all steel barrels. In fact mine (Sudanese) was fluted it's entire length under the handguards and it was no heavy barrel to begin with. It was one light rifle, weighing in at almost 1/2 lb LIGHTER than my Colt SP-1. The balance was perfect though, and it shot great. It was one accurate rifle! Recoil was oddly enough not a problem at all. Probably due to the straight line design. The gas system on mine was fully adjustable. The best feature was the charging handle under the carry handle. Yeah, it looks goofy nowdays, but if you've ever tried it, you'll wonder why AR-15's don't come that way nowdays. The current Armalite's rendition is a better execution of the design, but I still wish it had a lighter barrel.

Anyway, as noted the timing was bad. It arrived on the scene after all the NATO countries had already settled on their designs, so the market just wasn't there. By far most are the Sudanese model. It was a couple thousand that went there. The Portugese bought 1500 for use in Angloa. Burma and Nicaragua both bought small batches.

It had been tested by the US Army in the late 50's I think, and oddly enough was tested again in the late 70's. The Army was trying to come up with a new sniper rifle and tested a highly modified AR-10, against many other modified designs. Eventually the program was shelved for money. The AR-10 was also tested by the Germans as the G-4.

Ross

Link Posted: 3/22/2002 8:16:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 8:42:17 AM EDT by 5subslr5]
I believe the barrel that ruptured during tests was made of aluminum with 416 stainless steel liners.
After the failure, the barrel was checked and stress cracks were found through-out the 416 Stainless liner.
Stoner had opposed the use of this barrel for the tests but was over ruled by ArmaLite's president.

The muzzle compensator was made of titanium.

Tom
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 8:25:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rainier:

The Army Rangers use the Stoner SR-25, which was designed by Eugene Stoner, unlike the Armalite AR-10.




Rainier,
actually Eugene Stoner did design the AR-10. While at ArmaLite Stoner designed two rifles - the AR-10 and the AR-16 - both in 7.62 which was the caliber Stoner believed correct for military use. (Stoner just didn't like the 5.56mm round for military usage.)

ArmaLite down-sized the AR-10 (designers were Sullivan and Fremont) to make the AR-15.

ArmaLite developed the AR-18 in 1963 (designer was Art Miller) and probably borrowed heavily from the AR-16 - at least so far as type of construction (stampings, etc.).
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 8:54:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chairborne_Ranger:
Portugal did indeed buy some AR10s and a few found their way, through Portugal's colonial interests in Africa, into the conflicts on that continent. Allegedly the AR10, while rare, is/was highly prized there.

The Netherlands also manufactured the AR10 briefly.

These versions are all later designs than the ill-fated titanium barrel version.



ArmaLite was a 'think tank' with virtually no production facilities and never enough money. (In 1956, employees of ArmaLite totaled about nine !)

The first fifty AR-10's (The so-called Hollywood rifles) were made by ArmaLite. After that, the design was changed to metric (Art Miller, who later designed the AR-18, headed the metric conversion project) and Artillerie-Inrichtingen (AI) in the Netherlands produced the AR-10.

The best available estimates indicate probably just under 10,000 AR-10's were produced by Artillerie-Inrichtingen.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:07:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:15:30 AM EDT
!!!!!!!!!AR-10 IN 7.62X39 (In 1958) !!!!!!!!!!

Most of us are aware that Knight's Manufacturing exhibited their 'NEW' SR-47 in 7.62X39 at the recent Shot Show.

In 1958, ArmaLite made somewhere between 6-10 AR-10's in 7.62X39 for the the Finnish government.

Link Posted: 3/22/2002 9:27:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sulaco:

Did the AR10 ever see military service?





The AR-10 did see service in Africa. Also some few saw service in Cuba.

The only known picture of an AR-10 in action shows a Portuguese soldier on patrol in Angola with the AR-10. Surprisingly he is carrying the rare "sniper" version. The scope is mounted to the top of the carry handle.

(Now please don't hold this against ArmaLite but apparently the "FRENCH Foreign Legion" used some AR-10's in Chad !!)
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:51:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
!!!!!!!!!AR-10 IN 7.62X39 (In 1958) !!!!!!!!!!

Most of us are aware that Knight's Manufacturing exhibited their 'NEW' SR-47 in 7.62X39 at the recent Shot Show.

In 1958, ArmaLite made somewhere between 6-10 AR-10's in 7.62X39 for the the Finnish government.




Havent come across a single one of those, would be a quite a find. The Black Rifle indeed lists 6-10 pieces delivered for the assault rifle tests here.

Link Posted: 3/22/2002 11:00:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
(Now please don't hold this against ArmaLite but apparently the "FRENCH Foreign Legion" used some AR-10's in Chad !!)



Link Posted: 3/22/2002 11:08:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tuukka:

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
!!!!!!!!!AR-10 IN 7.62X39 (In 1958) !!!!!!!!!!

Most of us are aware that Knight's Manufacturing exhibited their 'NEW' SR-47 in 7.62X39 at the recent Shot Show.

In 1958, ArmaLite made somewhere between 6-10 AR-10's in 7.62X39 for the the Finnish government.




Haven't come across a single one of those, would be a quite a find. The Black Rifle indeed lists 6-10 pieces delivered for the assault rifle tests here.




Tuukka,
wouldn't you like to find an AR-10 in 7.62X39 AND one of the few AR-10 carbines ever made.

I did see one AR-10 sniper with the "IR" scope for sale. The guy didn't know what the scope really was but he knew the value of the rifle with any scope - a mere $20,000 !!
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 3:26:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2002 3:26:44 PM EDT by ED_P]
Tuuka,

Just thought I'd say hello to a fellow Finn.
My dad actually fought in the Winter War, have some cool pics of him with a Mosin Nagant braced with ski poles for a bipod in the snow. He was from Evijarvi, middle Finland, near West coast.

Wish I could've gotten a Valmet semi auto before importation was shut down here, just to be shooting what my "homies" shoot, but I've had to settle for a Romanian AK, which was pretty sloppy manufacture but still shoots every time I pull the trigger.
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 6:12:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ED_P:
Tuuka,

Just thought I'd say hello to a fellow Finn.
My dad actually fought in the Winter War, have some cool pics of him with a Mosin Nagant braced with ski poles for a bipod in the snow. He was from Evijarvi, middle Finland, near West coast.

Wish I could've gotten a Valmet semi auto before importation was shut down here, just to be shooting what my "homies" shoot, but I've had to settle for a Romanian AK, which was pretty sloppy manufacture but still shoots every time I pull the trigger.



Ed,
would be interesting to know what your Dad thought of the Valmet bayonet.
This is the only bayonet I've seen that could attach to a rifle but is also sharp enough to skin a fish !
Link Posted: 3/22/2002 10:47:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

Originally Posted By Rainier:

The Army Rangers use the Stoner SR-25, which was designed by Eugene Stoner, unlike the Armalite AR-10.




Rainier,
actually Eugene Stoner did design the AR-10. While at ArmaLite Stoner designed two rifles - the AR-10 and the AR-16 - both in 7.62 which was the caliber Stoner believed correct for military use. (Stoner just didn't like the 5.56mm round for military usage.)

ArmaLite down-sized the AR-10 (designers were Sullivan and Fremont) to make the AR-15.

ArmaLite developed the AR-18 in 1963 (designer was Art Miller) and probably borrowed heavily from the AR-16 - at least so far as type of construction (stampings, etc.).



What I was referring to was the new, commercial version. I know that the receiver was modified to take differnet mags, but wasn't the design changed to be more CNC and mass production friendly? And whos idea was it to move the cocking handle to underneath the carry handle?

Thanks
Link Posted: 3/23/2002 4:41:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 5subslr5:

(Now please don't hold this against ArmaLite but apparently the "FRENCH Foreign Legion" used some AR-10's in Chad !!)



OOOOO NOOOOOO say it aint so sub man!!! Now I will have to sell all of my armalites!
Link Posted: 3/23/2002 5:14:17 AM EDT

What I was referring to was the new, commercial version. I know that the receiver was modified to take differnet mags, but wasn't the design changed to be more CNC and mass production friendly?


Only thing I can offer on that is that my new commercial AR10 looks much like an AR15 on steroids vs. the original AR10, which, while similar, has numerous design differences with the AR15.


And whos idea was it to move the cocking handle to underneath the carry handle?


Dunno, but it sure makes optics mounting, and particularly the creation of the flattop variant, a hella lot easier.
Link Posted: 3/23/2002 6:29:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rainier:


What I was referring to was the new, commercial version. I know that the receiver was modified to take different mags, but wasn't the design changed to be more CNC and mass production friendly? And whose idea was it to move the cocking handle to underneath the carry handle?

Thanks



Sorry, should have realized you meant the current gun when compared to SR-25.

I'm thinking the current AR-10 is pretty much Mark Westrom's (ArmaLite President), most, if not all the way. When the current AR-10 was brought out the company was still 'very' small. I don't think this is much of a secret but basically Mark bet the financial farm on the success of the new AR-10.
Pretty good bet !

Just as a side note, both Mark and his wife still actually work a few gun shows each year - they'll both be in Tulsa in April. This is partially a hold-over from earlier days when they needed the sales to eat but Mark has continued to personally work shows for the direct contact with ArmaLite's customers. Seems he believes the best market research is still direct customer contact.
Link Posted: 3/23/2002 7:47:00 AM EDT
The current AR10, which shares only it's name and caliber with the original AR10 isn't reliable enough for general military service.

May be suitable for a specialized role where reliability isn't important, but I can't think of one as the M14 remains in very limited service where a 7.62mm rifle might be needed and is very reliable.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 3/24/2002 6:45:11 PM EDT
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