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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 60mm Mortars (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 1/27/2024 10:46:59 PM EDT
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Barely any discussion here. Is there somewhere that all the mortar guys hang out? Feeling an urge to try this hobby out. Also, is it pretty much demilled surplus or is someone making new mortars? I am interested in machining my own (appropriate taxes paid...) but curious if there is an existing supplier that could save me some trouble. |
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This thread is pretty dead now but it’s the best one I’ve ever found from a technical standpoint. Lots of good reading there. http://nfatalk.org/forum/index.php?threads/new-m2-mortar-cups-coming.13684/ I built mine from surplus parts, bipod, etc. Only place to buy a cup and tube, at present, is Ordnance.com/Vega Ballistics. They sell on GB, Marshall Morgan’s company. |
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Quoted: This thread is pretty dead now but it’s the best one I’ve ever found from a technical standpoint. Lots of good reading there. http://nfatalk.org/forum/index.php?threads/new-m2-mortar-cups-coming.13684/ I built mine from surplus parts, bipod, etc. Only place to buy a cup and tube, at present, is Ordnance.com/Vega Ballistics. They sell on GB, Marshall Morgan’s company. Thank you for the link! Mind if I ask what you're using for a sighting device (if anything)? I think I can build a pretty good bipod, and baseplate... but optics are a different animal. |
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Quoted: Thank you for the link! Mind if I ask what you're using for a sighting device (if anything)? I think I can build a pretty good bipod, and baseplate... but optics are a different animal. Quoted: Quoted: This thread is pretty dead now but it’s the best one I’ve ever found from a technical standpoint. Lots of good reading there. http://nfatalk.org/forum/index.php?threads/new-m2-mortar-cups-coming.13684/ I built mine from surplus parts, bipod, etc. Only place to buy a cup and tube, at present, is Ordnance.com/Vega Ballistics. They sell on GB, Marshall Morgan’s company. Thank you for the link! Mind if I ask what you're using for a sighting device (if anything)? I think I can build a pretty good bipod, and baseplate... but optics are a different animal. An original M4 sight. They’re not uncommon, they pop up every now and then. Sarco makes, or did make, an excellent repro base plate. For the money you’d be hard pressed to make one cheaper. |
One of the guys here, maybe Wingnut, has a wealth of 60mm documentation. Also @Ben had been working on a 60mm project at one time. Not sure what kind of machines you have access to, the hardest part of making one yourself would be the tube, but a hydraulic shop should be able to get your bore taken care of. Or you can still get a 81mm tube/cup/baseplate from Bowman.
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Quoted: One of the guys here, maybe Wingnut, has a wealth of 60mm documentation. Also @Ben had been working on a 60mm project at one time. Not sure what kind of machines you have access to, the hardest part of making one yourself would be the tube, but a hydraulic shop should be able to get your bore taken care of. Or you can still get a 81mm tube/cup/baseplate from Bowman. Yep, I would need to send the tube out for sizing to correct ID. My machines are 3-axis mill and manual lathe, plus a good network of current and former job shops to handle what I can't. |
| I forget the guys name but loaned my 60mm bipod assembly to be copied when I had it completely disassembled for restoration. Not sure how closely he cloned it but I’ll look back through my emails to see if I can remember who it was. The real m2/5 bipod is a lot more sophisticated and technical than what meets the eye. I’m sure it could be simplified for just shooting line of sight with dummy rounds. |
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Quoted: I forget the guys name but loaned my 60mm bipod assembly to be copied when I had it completely disassembled for restoration. Not sure how closely he cloned it but I’ll look back through my emails to see if I can remember who it was. The real m2/5 bipod is a lot more sophisticated and technical than what meets the eye. I’m sure it could be simplified for just shooting line of sight with dummy rounds. I'd love to see those drawings! Right now I am drafting up my own design based roughly on the current issue for M224A1. Those shielded screw assemblies do have more moving parts than meets the eye. |
| the hardest part to find right now are the bipod. the supply has completely dried up. there's currently 2 different companies on gunbroker selling new manufactured tubes and cups. I just put together 2 demilled setups and my hard part now is finding M49 bodies/rounds for display. |
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Quoted: I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working  Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ?  I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.
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Quoted: Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Cell phone to aim it using a compass app? 
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Quoted: Cell phone to aim it using a compass app? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Cell phone to aim it using a compass app? There are mortar aiming apps. Not sure if any are publicly available. |
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Quoted: There are mortar aiming apps. Not sure if any are publicly available. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Cell phone to aim it using a compass app? There are mortar aiming apps. Not sure if any are publicly available. Ooh, can you share the name of the apps? |
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Quoted: Ooh, can you share the name of the apps? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Cell phone to aim it using a compass app? There are mortar aiming apps. Not sure if any are publicly available. Ooh, can you share the name of the apps? I would if I could remember. I'll see if I can find them again . |
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Quoted: Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. I'll buy an APC shirt if you post a video of this working Shirt plus bumper sticker ? I'll have my mortar out of storage in April.Well, dangit, the shirt sale ended. I'll reach out to Redbirdxx. ETA: stickers ordered and emails sent to CustomInk. |
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Small update on my 60mm quest. Barrels right now seem to be limited to 30" WW2-era US M2 designs and the Yugo M57/French Mle-1935 replacements. Both are shorter than the current issue M225 cannon barrel which I believe is nearly 40". Although I'd like to get as close to modern issue as I can afford, the M225 is made from Alloy 718 at Watervliet Arsenal via a flow-forming process (patent). That is not even remotely achievable. I'll have to figure out if making a similar length barrel from 4130/4140 is worth the extra weight and cost vs. buying a shorter premade one from Vega. Speaking of... I reached out to DestructiveDevices.com with 5 calls. No one seems to answer the phone there and they don't return messages. I had hoped to get some barrel dimensions on their new-manufacture M2 barrels for $1300. Not a great start. I believe this is the same company as Vega Ballistics.  The bipod design is moving along. It won't be an exact copy of the M170A1 but I do want to capture the same performance and operating characteristics. See image below. I'll post some images when the design is a little more refined.  |
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Quoted: It is another company of Marshall Morgan. You can find M2 barrel dimensions if you look around online. I have them saved somewhere. I was also thinking of adding some length to my build as I'm not using a regular m2/m5 style bipod either. They must have read my post, because they called me right after! DestructiveDevices is going to measure an M224 for me and quote the longer barrel. Sounds like they can custom-make barrels, in addition to those on their site. ETA: What bipod are you using? ETA 2: DestructiveDevices confirmed the M224 barrel they have is 12" longer than the M2 barrel (I think that puts the M224 at 40"). Unfortunately, they won't quote it due to concerns about changes in barrel pressure resulting from the increased length. |
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I'm just using a Spanish tripod and baseplate for now. I got them for relatively cheap last year and sold the dummy cup and tube it came with. It's not the most ideal setup but I just want a shooter. Seeing the increased prices in tubes and cups(used to be 1500 for a set) I think I'm going to try making my own tube from 4130 and fabricating a cup to be welded on in multiple processes. I think I'll end up with a plenty strong, with the downside of being permanent. But that's not a huge deal to me. I basically plan on plugging the tube with a thick steel disk(bolted/welded in place) and then welding a cup on over that. |
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Quoted: Are you going for milspec 60mm bore or as-furnished seamless pipe diameter? I am planning in going for a milspec bore. I am going to attempt to ECM the bore with a power supply, a water pump, copper pipe, and some 3d printed fixtures. Backup plan is just to take it to a hydraulic shop and see if they'll open it up the .020 or whatever it is different. |
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Quoted: I'm just using a Spanish tripod and baseplate for now. I got them for relatively cheap last year and sold the dummy cup and tube it came with. It's not the most ideal setup but I just want a shooter. Seeing the increased prices in tubes and cups(used to be 1500 for a set) I think I'm going to try making my own tube from 4130 and fabricating a cup to be welded on in multiple processes. I think I'll end up with a plenty strong, with the downside of being permanent. But that's not a huge deal to me. I basically plan on plugging the tube with a thick steel disk(bolted/welded in place) and then welding a cup on over that. and im who bought the tube and cup from you. lol it took awhile to find a proper tripod but I sourced one and now here's what the setup looks like. 
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I'm now convinced that bipods are more complicated - and expensive - to make than meets the eye. This design I am working on is based loosely on an M170A1 (modified in many ways to ease manufacture at low/unitary scale) and has over 100 parts, including more than 20 uniquely machined P/Ns. I'm designing these parts around my own capabilities with a 3-axis VMC and a manual lathe. ...There are so many parts that I am considering combining some of these into fewer, more complex 5-axis jobs. That will increase my out of pocket cost since I can't make those on my own.  
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Wow. Your doing a whole recoil system as well? I didn't think that most 60mm bipod had them. I figured if I needed to make a bipod, I'd buy a big acme lead screw and nuts off of ebay for the windage, and a small trailer jack or similar for the elevation. The just weld up a bunch of tubing to make it all play nice together. I've seen a guy (morecannonfab on youtube) make some pretty nice black powder mortars that way. He used to offer them for a pretty good price. |
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Quoted: Wow. Your doing a whole recoil system as well? I didn't think that most 60mm bipod had them. I figured if I needed to make a bipod, I'd buy a big acme lead screw and nuts off of ebay for the windage, and a small trailer jack or similar for the elevation. The just weld up a bunch of tubing to make it all play nice together. I've seen a guy (morecannonfab on youtube) make some pretty nice black powder mortars that way. He used to offer them for a pretty good price. I think they do, including the old M2s. It's just a pair of springs to decouple recoil. Not even dampers. ETA: From TM-9-3071-1: 
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Oh interesting. Guess I never noticed. My Spanish tripod is just a ring that the tube slides through and stays a little loose. I suppose that it doesn't need a clamping force because it is a tripod and stands on its own, so the tube must just recoil through the hole. |
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Quoted: I actually just got an m224a1 bipod off a guy. Brand new. Though i already made a deal to trade it for a tube and cup so I can finish my Spanish mortar. I'd rather have something I can shoot than multiple partially complete mortars. A real deal A1? Like the all-aluminum variant that's currently issued since ~2012?! If so, I would be interested in that as well @SGT-Fish. At least post a picture! |
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Quoted: A real deal A1? Like the all-aluminum variant that's currently issued since ~2012?! If so, I would be interested in that as well @SGT-Fish. At least post a picture! Yeah I was pretty surprised to find it as well. https://postimg.cc/k6rqhY0P https://postimg.cc/Mcfz5JrY The problem is finding the rest of the parts. |
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How far have you got to modeling the tube, cup, and trigger? I just got a m7 baseplate and a non demilled m170 bipod. I just started modeling out the tube and and getting reference images for the trigger assembly. Getting most of the dimensions from the patent application. |
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Quoted: How far have you got to modeling the tube, cup, and trigger? I just got a m7 baseplate and a non demilled m170 bipod. I just started modeling out the tube and and getting reference images for the trigger assembly. Getting most of the dimensions from the patent application. @winterstick If you are referring to me, I have not modeled anything other than the bipod. I had intended to get a functional tube/cup from destructivedevices.com, but the response I received means I am kind of SOL unless I decide to scale down to an M2 design. Are you going to make a functional trigger-fired mortar? Because that would be amazing. |
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Quoted: @winterstick If you are referring to me, I have not modeled anything other than the bipod. I had intended to get a functional tube/cup from destructivedevices.com, but the response I received means I am kind of SOL unless I decide to scale down to an M2 design. Are you going to make a functional trigger-fired mortar? Because that would be amazing. Yeah I got rid of my m224 bipod because it'd be too complicated to get a tube and cup for it. Much easier to get a M2 cup and tube. Though I really want to do a M19 style trigger fired mortar next |
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I'm working on it. I have the cup and tube mostly modeled. I have to 3d print some of the section to make sure sizing is correct (for my bipod and baseplate). Followed the patent for the Inconel tube, but made it almost double the thickness. Pressure simulations are showing a safety factor of 2.2 or more at 10080 PSI (1 in a 1,000,000 pressure for the mortar). Starting on the trigger mechanism and firing pin now. |
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I've wanted to build a M224 style mortar for a long time and have done a lot of searching for info. I haven't found much, but I did find some documents that listed a hydrostatic pressure test as part of barrel acceptance (as an alternative to proof loads). Since it appears to be a government design that gets farmed out to different shops (or Watervliet for the barrels), would we be able to FOIA the M224 drawings or TDP? Maybe the older finned barrel version (steel barrel I think, vs the current inconel ones?)? I've read that the M16 TDP was released/is available by FOIA, but other than a forum post or two, I haven't found any info on that. I've thought of trying myself, but I don't have the resources to fight an arbitrary FOIA denial, so I didn't want to do something that would set any sort of precedent. |
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Quoted: I'm working on it. I have the cup and tube mostly modeled. I have to 3d print some of the section to make sure sizing is correct (for my bipod and baseplate). Followed the patent for the Inconel tube, but made it almost double the thickness. Pressure simulations are showing a safety factor of 2.2 or more at 10080 PSI (1 in a 1,000,000 pressure for the mortar). Starting on the trigger mechanism and firing pin now. Very cool! What barrel material? |
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Quoted: I've wanted to build a M224 style mortar for a long time and have done a lot of searching for info. I haven't found much, but I did find some documents that listed a hydrostatic pressure test as part of barrel acceptance (as an alternative to proof loads). Since it appears to be a government design that gets farmed out to different shops (or Watervliet for the barrels), would we be able to FOIA the M224 drawings or TDP? Maybe the older finned barrel version (steel barrel I think, vs the current inconel ones?)? I've read that the M16 TDP was released/is available by FOIA, but other than a forum post or two, I haven't found any info on that. I've thought of trying myself, but I don't have the resources to fight an arbitrary FOIA denial, so I didn't want to do something that would set any sort of precedent. I assume the drawings are not releasable. But who knows? |
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Quoted: You don't need a bipod. You just need a tube clamp and a cell phone. You just need a base plate. The M224 trigger also has a ranging bubble level.  These are relatively new:  Go to 3:00:  RANGERS IN ACTION: 75th Ranger Regiment Live-Fire |
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Quoted: Inconel 718. However, the thickness of the barrel could be increased to use a less exotic material. Work so far: https://i.postimg.cc/YCXGkT5W/tube-with-trigger.jpg Tube and Cup: https://i.postimg.cc/HkWcqThm/tube-only.jpg Pressure Simulation (10080 PSI): https://i.postimg.cc/FsVkCYGG/pressure-simulation.jpg Slick work. Where did you find drawings for the trigger mechanism? Or are you rolling your own? |
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Quoted: Slick work. Where did you find drawings for the trigger mechanism? Or are you rolling your own? It's from the patent. The geometry in the patent is different than real life, but its about 95% the same. I'm using the patent, with high resolution photos, and the TM for the mortar as well. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3782240A/en Also, just ran the pressure simulation with the current wall thickness using 4130, and it looks like the cup needs some minor geometry changes but the tube has a safety factor >2.68 
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| My form 1 just got approved for my M2. But my hankering for a handheld has me debating the re-activation of a British 2-inch mortar. I'd like to do an M19 or even a m224 wannabe, but the availability of demilled 2-inch mortars is a lot better. And ammo won't be a problem if my 3d printed rounds work out. |
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Quoted: It's from the patent. The geometry in the patent is different than real life, but its about 95% the same. I'm using the patent, with high resolution photos, and the TM for the mortar as well. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3782240A/en Also, just ran the pressure simulation with the current wall thickness using 4130, and it looks like the cup needs some minor geometry changes but the tube has a safety factor >2.68 https://i.postimg.cc/wM3GRZ6Z/tube-4130.jpg Thanks for sharing! I admit I am not well versed in searching patents. |
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Making slow but steady progress. Got the Firing Pin Actuator, Sear, Sear Housing, Rod End Clevis, Trigger (Rod under the handle), Trigger Pivot, and Plunger all modeled. Just need to get the Selector, Firing Pin, and Firing Pin Guide modeled correctly. Then I can work on the connection of the front of the handle to the barrel. Then I'm going to 3d print all of the components to tweak the interfaces and geometries.      |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 60mm Mortars (Page 1 of 3)
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