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Posted: 4/26/2010 7:26:12 PM EDT
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I finally made it out to finish up my load development, see my Saga
After all was said and done I ended up going with 42.0gns of RE-15 using neck sized match brass trimmed to 2.005" using 168 SMK's As I may have stated earlier I purchased a Hornady OAL Gage along with a basic comparator set and using the .308 insert I am now measuring from the ogive to give me a better measurement, I have found out that even match bullets vary as much as .006" I am now going to experiment varying the OAL starting at 2.225" and going all the way up to 2.240" ( .005" at a time ), my bore measures 2.240" (I have checked this many, many times) so I have to ask how many of you run up to the lands and how is accuracy affected, I have talked with BR Shooters that said you need to be on the lands Here are the two from today, and thanks to everybody that offered up valuable information to help me get this far !!!! 
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That don't look like 10 shots to me (you know the RULE), or maybe you and your stuff are/is that good. No not (10) shots only (5) maybe next time out I will see what I can do, you know the drill you fire 1,2,3 etc... and then on that 7th or 8th you drop the hammer while your head is up your arse and there goes the whole group 
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All right guys I need some suggestions and or help
Went out today after picking the 42.0 gn load of RE-15, here is some additional info: Have been using the the same BH (neck sized) Brass trimmed to 2.005" 42.0gn of RE-15 168 SMK's OAL from the ogive 2.225" - 2.240" (Bore measures 2.240") I went up .005" at a time till I got to the 2.240" I ran (7) to each group benched with flat bags up front to kinda form a V and a mono pod in the rear, as you can see I had quite a few flyers (I did manage to call most of them) The groups are all under 1" if you discount the flyers but I can't figure out how to get more lockup short of using a fixed rest and I really don't want to buy some high dollar rest, I believe the rife is capable of doing it's part if I can get my lockup correct Thanks in advance for the information 
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I'm confused regarding your measuring system. What's your cartridge OAL? Most people are loading .308 at or very close to, 2.80". Mostly because that's what works in magazine fed rifles. Some magazines (M1-A for one) will accept slightly longer rounds, up to 2.830" in some cases.
If you're trying for maximum accuracy from a single loaded cartridge, be it long range M1-A or a bolt action then longer rounds are an option. They just won't feed or function any other way. You already have the Hornady/Stoney Point style gage, buy or make a .308 modified case to measure your length to lands. As you've already discovered, match bullets need to be seperated based on their measurements and loaded accordingly. You do not (always) have to touch the rifling to get the best groups. Some rifles will group best at .030" off the rifling, some .010" off and other must be jammed into the rifling. The idea that you can have the bullets just "kiss" or "just touch" should probably be abandoned based on you're ogive variation discovery. Even with match bullets you risk a lot of inconsistency if you try the just touch method. Some will just touch doing that, while the next round will be slightly jammed and the following round will actually be jumping .003". I'd rather be completely jumping or completely jammed. It takes away much of the bullet inconsistencies you discovered during measurements. I'd try .030" jump, .020" jump and .010" jump. They will probably all shoot well, one (or two) may stand out for further tuning. If that doesn't get you where you want to be, lower your charge by at least 1.0 grain and try touching plus .010". Or if you prefer, jammed into the rifling by .010". Just a different way of stating it. Be aware, that once the bolt closes on a jammed round it can not be opened without the bullet sticking in the barrel and spilling powder all over the interior of the rifle when the case pulls out. It's a shoot it or make a mess proposition. |
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I'm confused regarding your measuring system. What's your cartridge OAL? Most people are loading .308 at or very close to, 2.80". Mostly because that's what works in magazine fed rifles. Some magazines (M1-A for one) will accept slightly longer rounds, up to 2.830" in some cases. If you're trying for maximum accuracy from a single loaded cartridge, be it long range M1-A or a bolt action then longer rounds are an option. They just won't feed or function any other way. You already have the Hornady/Stoney Point style gage, buy or make a .308 modified case to measure your length to lands. As you've already discovered, match bullets need to be seperated based on their measurements and loaded accordingly. You do not (always) have to touch the rifling to get the best groups. Some rifles will group best at .030" off the rifling, some .010" off and other must be jammed into the rifling. The idea that you can have the bullets just "kiss" or "just touch" should probably be abandoned based on you're ogive variation discovery. Even with match bullets you risk a lot of inconsistency if you try the just touch method. Some will just touch doing that, while the next round will be slightly jammed and the following round will actually be jumping .003". I'd rather be completely jumping or completely jammed. It takes away much of the bullet inconsistencies you discovered during measurements. I'd try .030" jump, .020" jump and .010" jump. They will probably all shoot well, one (or two) may stand out for further tuning. If that doesn't get you where you want to be, lower your charge by at least 1.0 grain and try touching plus .010". Or if you prefer, jammed into the rifling by .010". Just a different way of stating it. Be aware, that once the bolt closes on a jammed round it can not be opened without the bullet sticking in the barrel and spilling powder all over the interior of the rifle when the case pulls out. It's a shoot it or make a mess proposition. I do have the modified .308 case and came up with 2.240" from the base to ogive using a .308 comparator insert so on this last outing I made (7) rounds each at 2.225", 2.230", 2.235" and 2.240" which would be .015" .010" .005" and .000" from the lands, all were charged with 42.0gns of RE-15 Update: I just checked the COAL and out of the rounds I loaded the length goes from 2.817" - 2.825" but the base to ogive runs 2.239" - 2.240" (Big difference) I know the 42.0 will shoot well if I do my part, I may be over doing the "chase the lands thing" but what else do i have to do 
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I'm confused regarding your measuring system. What's your cartridge OAL? Most people are loading .308 at or very close to, 2.80". Mostly because that's what works in magazine fed rifles. Some magazines (M1-A for one) will accept slightly longer rounds, up to 2.830" in some cases. If you're trying for maximum accuracy from a single loaded cartridge, be it long range M1-A or a bolt action then longer rounds are an option. They just won't feed or function any other way. You already have the Hornady/Stoney Point style gage, buy or make a .308 modified case to measure your length to lands. As you've already discovered, match bullets need to be seperated based on their measurements and loaded accordingly. You do not (always) have to touch the rifling to get the best groups. Some rifles will group best at .030" off the rifling, some .010" off and other must be jammed into the rifling. The idea that you can have the bullets just "kiss" or "just touch" should probably be abandoned based on you're ogive variation discovery. Even with match bullets you risk a lot of inconsistency if you try the just touch method. Some will just touch doing that, while the next round will be slightly jammed and the following round will actually be jumping .003". I'd rather be completely jumping or completely jammed. It takes away much of the bullet inconsistencies you discovered during measurements. I'd try .030" jump, .020" jump and .010" jump. They will probably all shoot well, one (or two) may stand out for further tuning. If that doesn't get you where you want to be, lower your charge by at least 1.0 grain and try touching plus .010". Or if you prefer, jammed into the rifling by .010". Just a different way of stating it. Be aware, that once the bolt closes on a jammed round it can not be opened without the bullet sticking in the barrel and spilling powder all over the interior of the rifle when the case pulls out. It's a shoot it or make a mess proposition. I do have the modified .308 case and came up with 2.240" from the base to ogive using a .308 comparator insert so on this last outing I made (7) rounds each at 2.225", 2.230", 2.235" and 2.240" which would be .015" .010" .005" and .000" from the lands, all were charged with 42.0gns of RE-15 Update: I just checked the COAL and out of the rounds I loaded the length goes from 2.817" - 2.825" but the base to ogive runs 2.239" - 2.240" (Big difference) I know the 42.0 will shoot well if I do my part, I may be over doing the "chase the lands thing" but what else do i have to do
2.23 to the ogive is .010 off the lands for me with 175gr SMKs. On a Savage 10fcp. |
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OK, then drop your powder charge 1.0 grain and try 2.250" (ten thousandth's into the rifling) and watch your primers and cases for pressure signs. You might even load some at 2.255" or .015" and 2.260" or .020" into the rifling. Don't go any deeper than that.
If you get pressure issues stop the testing. You can always seat the bullets deeper and shoot them or pull the bullets and lower the charge some more. Usually a 1.0 grain reduction is enough unless you are already at maximum in your rifle. I know you're determined to get the best group possible, but you may already have them. Saiga's aren't exactly precision rifles and your groups are pretty impressive given that fact. I personally stick with magazine fed ammo unless I'm acually engaged in a tournament and the particular rifle I'm shooting needs to be loaded long into the lands. It makes things easier to deal with all around. |
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Was it windy at all ? And what primers ? The primers can make about a 1/3 of an inch, powder 3/4s of an inch...(quoted from the "Handloader" .308 Winc. article.) Here is the load: BH Match Brass (trimmed to 2.005") Flash holes deburred and pockets cleaned and uniformed WLR Primers 42.0gns RE-15 SMK 168's Seated to 2.240" (Base to ogive measurement using .308 comaparator ) COAL is 2.820" +- .003" (due to tips not uniform) Was alittle windy had it blowing towards the target's at maybe 8-10 mph Also what is a decent target that has a pretty good precision bull to put the cross hairs on ? And Savage Rifles are supposed to be pretty good so it gotta be me Here is the rifle; 
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I can't use the orange dots or anything green or red, I'm color blind. Simple NRA bullseyes work fine for me. The best target is the one with the best contrast. Orange ain't it with a scope or irons. Especially not irons. Several times every year I give someone a black bullseye because they're trying to shoot a small orange target that's barely adequate for a scope. They look like a washed out blob at any sort of distance. Here's a target I use. This is one I designed in powerpoint and printed at home. The color gives enough contrast to see at 300 yards, yet I can see .22 caliber holes through the spotting scope without trying to search around in a black aiming point. That's eight shots of .308 Win from my 40X at 100 yards. The three shots out were called. I jerked the trigger for the top one and the wind caused the bottom right flyer. I mishandled the gun and caused the bottom shot. 
I think I've fixed the grid since this target was shot. I also have a version with blue squares and versions with circles in blue, green, and black. No orange. |
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I can't use the orange dots or anything green or red, I'm color blind. Simple NRA bullseyes work fine for me. The best target is the one with the best contrast. Orange ain't it with a scope or irons. Especially not irons. Several times every year I give someone a black bullseye because they're trying to shoot a small orange target that's barely adequate for a scope. They look like a washed out blob at any sort of distance. Here's a target I use. This is one I designed in powerpoint and printed at home. The color gives enough contrast to see at 300 yards, yet I can see .22 caliber holes through the spotting scope without trying to search around in a black aiming point. That's eight shots of .308 Win from my 40X at 100 yards. The three shots out were called. I jerked the trigger for the top one and the wind caused the bottom right flyer. I mishandled the gun and caused the bottom shot. http://media.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=6835 I think I've fixed the grid since this target was shot. I also have a version with blue squares and versions with circles in blue, green, and black. No orange. How about red ? also could you email me the one's you have Thanks |
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The added benefit of AeroE's targets is that it simplifies clicks needed to zero. The graph style background is usually 1/2" or 1" squares. Those are one inch grids layed out to the precision permitted by the program (using the hidden background grid and the snap feature) and the printer. A finer grid is possible, and variations of the line fonts and weight are possible. The only downside is the cost of printing on home equipment, and I can't say I think it's all that obnoxious. Plus, I always have a portfolio of different types of targets available. Quoted:
How about red ? also could you email me the one's you have Thanks You'll have to send an email address to me. The powerpoint file I use has many targets for rifle and pistol shooting, including new ones I'm working on and a few I don't use for their original purpose now. Any color your printer will support is possible as you can edit the file. I wouldn't recommend red normally, but it might no make a difference to you. |
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