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Link Posted: 10/24/2014 7:35:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Vinny302:
I am wondering if checking run out on a gas gun is even worth it. I would like to see how run out is affected after a round is stripped from a magazine and chambered. I would be willing to bet that run out increases considerably.

Vince
View Quote

I'd put money on the results of before/after runout tests being directly dependent on how tight the bullet was held and what type/how tight a crimp was used. I've seen rounds stripped into the chamber and then ejected that looked like the bullet got bent, and others where there was a nice little "graze" mark along both bullet and neck where the feed ramps touched them, without any visible impact on bullet alignment. I think that a well-retained bullet would retain its initial runout, while a less tightly held bullet would be easily dislodged.
Link Posted: 10/24/2014 10:58:12 PM EDT
I'm a believer in the Forster seating dies!

I'm also a believer in keeping runout at .003 max.

An interesting experiment I did was separate XM193 by runout.
I think it was .005 as the break point.
The results were easy to see.
I also shot XM193 that I weeded out the .003 and under rounds(the .004 and above being much, much more common) and shot them at 700yds on a clam day, I was actually impressed!
Link Posted: 10/24/2014 11:01:21 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Steelhead43:
I'm a believer in the Forster seating dies!

I'm also a believer in keeping runout at .003 max.

An interesting experiment I did was separate XM193 by runout.
I think it was .005 as the break point.
The results were easy to see.
I also shot XM193 that I weeded out the .003 and under rounds(the .004 and above being much, much more common) and shot them at 700yds on a clam day, I was actually impressed!
View Quote

So that's where them fliers come from, I knew it !
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 6:38:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/30/2014 5:33:04 AM EDT by popnfresh]
Just got back around to some of my good brass and pumped out a few. Max runout was .004"

The red number is what the neck ID runout was the blue is what the bullet runout is in thousandths of an inch. Pretty good IMO. Avg.runout .0023" SD .0008"



Link Posted: 10/27/2014 7:36:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Just got back around to some of my good brass and pumped out a few. Max runout was .004"

The red number is what the neck ID runout was the blue is what the bullet runout is in thousandths of an inch. Pretty good IMO.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/glock2027/CIMG1970_zpsa0fac0b1.jpg

View Quote


popnfresh - If I am seeing this right, some of your neck ID run out is greater than the bullet run out, right? Is this demonstrating that even with "crooked necks" the seating die will still correctly align the bullet? If so, is neck run out, within reason, that important or am I misunderstanding this concept?
Link Posted: 10/27/2014 7:45:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RLR350:


popnfresh - If I am seeing this right, some of your neck ID run out is greater than the bullet run out, right? Is this demonstrating that even with "crooked necks" the seating die will still correctly align the bullet? If so, is neck run out, within reason, that important or am I misunderstanding this concept?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RLR350:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Just got back around to some of my good brass and pumped out a few. Max runout was .004"

The red number is what the neck ID runout was the blue is what the bullet runout is in thousandths of an inch. Pretty good IMO.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/glock2027/CIMG1970_zpsa0fac0b1.jpg



popnfresh - If I am seeing this right, some of your neck ID run out is greater than the bullet run out, right? Is this demonstrating that even with "crooked necks" the seating die will still correctly align the bullet? If so, is neck run out, within reason, that important or am I misunderstanding this concept?


From my OP
Even with bad brass that the ID ranout .005"-.010" the Forster die seated the bullets straighter than the Hornady with true brass.
over 40 rounds I check avg runout was .0039" with a .002" SD only 10 were over .004" and none over .008"


The real bad brass showed greater extremes, but smaller amounts don't seem to matter much.

Link Posted: 10/27/2014 9:20:47 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By popnfresh:


From my OP

The real bad brass showed greater extremes, but smaller amounts don't seem to matter much.

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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By RLR350:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Just got back around to some of my good brass and pumped out a few. Max runout was .004"

The red number is what the neck ID runout was the blue is what the bullet runout is in thousandths of an inch. Pretty good IMO.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/glock2027/CIMG1970_zpsa0fac0b1.jpg



popnfresh - If I am seeing this right, some of your neck ID run out is greater than the bullet run out, right? Is this demonstrating that even with "crooked necks" the seating die will still correctly align the bullet? If so, is neck run out, within reason, that important or am I misunderstanding this concept?


From my OP
Even with bad brass that the ID ranout .005"-.010" the Forster die seated the bullets straighter than the Hornady with true brass.
over 40 rounds I check avg runout was .0039" with a .002" SD only 10 were over .004" and none over .008"


The real bad brass showed greater extremes, but smaller amounts don't seem to matter much.



Thanks, I read it a few days ago and didn't go back. The picture just brought the question to mind.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 12:30:48 AM EDT
Well crap...

Thanks popnfresh...

Just ordered the Forster micro seating dies for my bolt guns...

To think that I used to roll my rounds on a flat table to check their concentricity...and I rejected a few...

Great write up...

Thanks...
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 2:26:07 PM EDT
Thanks for all the great data and info.

I just picked up one of these dies for 6.5grendel off the EE for about half price. I use the regular forster dies for 223 and have been extremely happy with them, I'm excited to see what kind of results I get with the Grendel reloads.
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 2:49:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2014 2:50:23 PM EDT by Corporal_Chaos]
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 4:42:41 PM EDT

Something that I meant to point out but forgot. ;). When setting up a dial test indicator it is best to place the contact lever at a right angle to the variance to be measured. If it isn't perpendicular then a sine error will introduced into the measurement. Of course this sine error will be a small amount but nonetheless it is there.
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 11:10:01 PM EDT
Amazing work, leaning towards these dies really hard now. Thanks for taking the time to post this up.
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 11:48:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2014 10:55:49 AM EDT by Libilaw]
One method I have done to reduce runnout is to seat 1/4 the way, rotate the round, seat another 4th, rotate, till its fully seated. One of these days however I think I will be getting the forster die, good write up!
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 11:56:04 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Does the Forster leave any marks on the O-give? I have the Redding competition seating die in .308 and it leaves a ring on the bullet's O-give. I've read that others have resolved the issue by polishing the bullet seater plug.
View Quote


No, not really. I'm sure to a degree all have the potential to leave a ring, but I haven't seen any on the 200 or so I have loaded with the Forster thus far.

My Hornady die leaves a ring most of the time.
Link Posted: 11/21/2014 11:57:11 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Libilaw:
One method I have done to reduce runnout is to seat 1/4 the way, rotate the round, seat another 4th, rotate, till its fully seated. One of these days however I think I will be getting the forster die, good right up!
View Quote


I do something similar to this as a matter of habit even when using the Forster. I have no idea if it helps, but it makes sense.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 10:38:03 AM EDT
Great thread. I'm sold on getting one of these now to replace my Dillon dies.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 7:10:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Libilaw:
One method I have done to reduce runnout is to seat 1/4 the way, rotate the round, seat another 4th, rotate, till its fully seated. One of these days however I think I will be getting the forster die, good write up!
View Quote



I did this in my single stage as habit and it didn't seem to do a bit of good in reducing runout when I actually checked them.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 7:19:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Does the Forster leave any marks on the O-give? I have the Redding competition seating die in .308 and it leaves a ring on the bullet's O-give. I've read that others have resolved the issue by polishing the bullet seater plug.
View Quote


Yes it does leave a ring but it is not as bad the wrinkles in the jackets from forming; it looks like a scuff in the brass. I doubt it has an effect, but I have considered radiusing that area a tad. I see seater rings from any dies I use.
Link Posted: 11/22/2014 9:46:49 PM EDT
Great stuff. All I've used is Forster stuff so I'm feeling pretty good about that decision.
Link Posted: 12/3/2014 9:00:20 AM EDT
I'll be giving this a shot myself


Link Posted: 1/25/2015 12:19:01 PM EDT
Popnfresh, do you typically full length size or neck size for your bolt gun loads?

Which sizing dies do you like, and why?
Link Posted: 1/25/2015 1:06:14 PM EDT
Very interesting, thanks for sharing your work!

I to read your posts, even the long ones.
Link Posted: 1/25/2015 2:17:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tReznr:
Popnfresh, do you typically full length size or neck size for your bolt gun loads?

Which sizing dies do you like, and why?
View Quote

I full length size only. I use the standard RCBS sizing die from the 2 die sets. I have not tried others because because the RCBS die has no negative effect on the case; it comes out of the die sized and concentric. That is all I require.


I think I should have bought a .223rem Forster Seater die before I posted this thread, now I cannot find any in stock(might be cause of this thread).

I had to buy a Redding instead, I like the Forster better as far as finish but the Redding seems to turn out the same quality of round.

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Link Posted: 1/25/2015 2:52:06 PM EDT
pnp, great write up. Thanks, you convinced me to get the forster.

Where are you in Tx?

Txl
Link Posted: 1/25/2015 10:22:19 PM EDT
I am also convinced, but I can't seem to find the .223 micrometer die in stock anywhere...
Link Posted: 1/26/2015 6:46:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2015 6:52:23 AM EDT by popnfresh]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sm0413:
I am also convinced, but I can't seem to find the .223 micrometer die in stock anywhere...
View Quote


I went with the Redding Competition seater .223 for this reason, it is more expensive, not as pretty and doesn't fit back in the die box with with the L-N-L bushing but does the same job it seems. It does fit in my Forster .308 seater die box, there is room for 3 in there with the LNL bushings so...

I loaded up some 77gr SMKs and some looong 90gr pointed SMKs last night and the Redding worked great for the 50 or so I did. There was enough adjustment to seat the 77s at mag length and seat the 90s wayyy long(barely seated) without adjusting the die in the press.
Link Posted: 1/26/2015 8:52:23 AM EDT
pop: Good thread, my experiences in this area have been similar. I use a new model Sinclair runout gauge. I shoot a lot of 6.8 SPC ammo. I started with a Hornady die set and later upgraded to a Redding sizer and Forster competition seater. In my instance, both the Hornady and Redding/Forster set ups produced about the same TIR results. Case necks were near zero runout and seated bullets ranged from zero to about .005" TIR. Like you, I found that rounds with .003" or less TIR at the driving bands were about equal in accuracy, with the .004 and .005 TIR rounds less so.

In summary, not all Hornady seaters produce "crooked" bullets and Redding seaters do not automatically produce uniform low runout. Other factors seem to be at play, e.g., variations in neck thickness. RCBS and Redding seaters also produce low runout numbers for me in other cartridges. I believe the reason rounds with .003" runout or less demonstrate similar accuracy is because most modern rifle chambers have very tight throats. For example, the 6.8 SPC2 chamber throat is .2781" in diameter and .100" long. So, slightly crooked bullets are still presented to the leade fairly straightly, which seems to mitigate the effects of modest amounts of runout. - CW
Link Posted: 1/26/2015 10:26:23 AM EDT
The design of the Forster and Redding force the bullet to run concentric with the OD the case so if everything in the die is concentric, inline and properly fitting these dies will produce straighter ammo more often.
Any other seating die with less than a full length sleeve will not be as reliable as the ammo is as the mercy of more variables.
The Hornady sleeve only covers the neck and is loose fitting. It can make straight ammo as I used it for the initial test but it produced far more runout being at the mercy of the case.
The Forster makes good ammo out of bad cases.

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Link Posted: 1/26/2015 9:21:37 PM EDT
I reload 223, 6.8 with Hornady micrometer seaters and some of your results on the groups over .005" look eerily familiar. I'm getting setup for 308 (new LaRue OBR on order) and went with Redding NM dies with the competition seater to make sure I'm not getting runout induced flyers (308 is expensive! )

I may pick up a Forster NM seater die in 223 to see if it makes me suck less and my groups tighten up.

ZA
Link Posted: 1/27/2015 4:15:24 AM EDT
Congratulations, popnfresh:

Apparently, your post has contributed to a fury of sales for Forster's "Ultra Micrometer Seater Dies". (insert --> applause-sounds <--here) Since many of us have kept up with this post, (and quite a few others you've inspired us with), we could have at least been given a heads-up to invest stock in the company for a portion of the dividends. That could have helped supplement the cost for some of us to add this die to our own arsenals.

But, no.

You had to bombard us with all of your accumulated knowledge, pretty pictures, etc of the topic, and send all of those wonderful seater-dies to more fortunate souls. (whimper) It's like waiting for Christmas all over again. (cry) And, silly newbies like myself get to sit... and, wait... until Forster replenishes the retailers. (sobbing on the floor)

(Obviously, I'm joking)

Thanks so much for your post. (seriously) It's very thorough and informative to a person who's just recently begun reloading. Many details and specifics to keep an eye on when attempting to create precision ammo. Another mental-notation to make while gaining knowledge of my new addiction. Appreciate you sharing your experiences.
Link Posted: 1/30/2015 11:26:00 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Forster CS:

"Dear Sir,

We are still making the 223 Rem Ultra Micrometer Seater Die. We have discontinued selling them in the sets with the full length sizing dies, but do offer them as individual dies. These dies are on backorder here at the factory. We have them in production but it is going to be a good 4-6 weeks yet before we would be able to ship the backorders out.

You may want to get one on order through a Distributor so you have your name in line for receiving one once we begin shipping.

We apologize for not being able to provide the die to you at this time.

Thank you for contacting us."
View Quote

Link Posted: 1/31/2015 12:24:04 AM EDT
FWIW...

Redding has started selling their NM seating die with a full length resizing die (no bushings) in a less expensive 2 die set. The are calling them their "Master Hunter" die sets and are about $120 per set at Midway. Not a bad deal when you consider they want $105 for the NM seating die by itself. I just picked up a set in 308 and 223.... Thanks popnfresh!

ZA
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 7:27:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/8/2015 7:28:40 AM EDT by gtfoxy]
Thank you for the write up pnf.

I am a bit of a noob to the whole reloading game, time wise anyway, and as such when I began to embark on wildcat development I decided I needed to pick the brains of people that are some of the best of the best I could find that would actually share their experiences & knowledge base. One of them is a US National long range champion & multi-time team member.

By far the majority of them right away said that I needed a Forster seating die to get the most accurate loads regardless of brass prep methods or dimensional consistency.

I am glad I listened.

Again, thanks for sharing.
Link Posted: 2/8/2015 5:50:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 6:05:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2015 6:18:40 AM EDT by Skinnable]
Umm, like... <-- click that for an answer

(Sorry, I couldn't help myself, dragunov. <snicker>)
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 6:37:23 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dragunov:
What with the difficulty in finding Redding or Forster micrometer dies right now would this product turn my "normal" die into the precision seating die mentioned here?

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/760076/redding-bullet-seating-micrometer-9080-308-winchester-30-06-springfield-300-winchester-short-magnum

http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_749012605_4.jpg

If the answer is yes, would it also work if I had a Forster or Redding die in say .223 but screwed the .308 micrometer in to it to use it on .308 cartridges?
View Quote


No, the micrometer has nothing to do with seating the bullet straight.
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 7:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/9/2015 7:32:45 AM EDT by sasquatch98]
What you need are the l. e. Wilson in-line bullet seating die and the L. E. Wilson collet neck sizer die to use with an arbor press. This setup will put out consistent preciion ammo all day and is normally the method most seen at benchrest matches.






http://www.lewilson.com/chambertypebulletseater.html
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 9:01:45 PM EDT
Great write up!

I have been using the Forster dies for some years now and have always had great results.

I had Forster custom hone my size die a while back and I lost a lot of sizing runout as compared
to my Redding bushing die (less runout with Forster).
Link Posted: 2/9/2015 10:31:13 PM EDT
What caliber die are you having trouble finding?
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 2:15:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/10/2015 2:21:48 PM EDT by gtfoxy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By sasquatch98:
What you need are the l. e. Wilson in-line bullet seating die and the L. E. Wilson collet neck sizer die to use with an arbor press. This setup will put out consistent preciion ammo all day and is normally the method most seen at benchrest matches.


http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/178/615461.jpg



http://www.lewilson.com/chambertypebulletseater.html
View Quote


Yes, you are right, that is what was highly recomemnded & that is what I went with... LOL, sorry not a Forster. I remember speaking directly with Forster but I needed blank dies & Wilson had them with milti bullet inserts for my application.. Also, full case support...



I will be adding the micro adjustment die to my collection when I get that far. When I spoke with them they said they would make dies for me once I have everything hammered out.
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 4:58:35 PM EDT
FYI, 223 Forster in stock and priced right at Midway. I have one coming...
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 9:43:04 PM EDT
nice job pop
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 9:54:38 PM EDT
What is the bullet profile for the Forster Ultra Micrometer's seating punch?
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 10:16:47 PM EDT
My 6.5grendel Ultra seater is giving me problems with the 107 SMK. Works fine with Nosler 123 CC. The upshot is, I'm almost out of the 107's.
Link Posted: 2/10/2015 10:45:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SpeyRod:
FYI, 223 Forster in stock and priced right at Midway. I have one coming...
View Quote


Went ahead and backordered the 300 Win Mag that I originally wanted, but included the .223 one since I was spending money.

Why not? Right?
Link Posted: 2/19/2015 3:31:36 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
What is the bullet profile for the Forster Ultra Micrometer's seating punch?
View Quote



I am not sure what you mean but it will seat 230gr Berger Hybrids which have a loooong pointy ogive.

I think they altered it, I believe the older ones wouldn't work with the longer bullets.

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Link Posted: 2/19/2015 6:47:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By popnfresh:



I am not sure what you mean but it will seat 230gr Berger Hybrids which have a loooong pointy ogive.

I think they altered it, I believe the older ones wouldn't work with the longer bullets.

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Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
What is the bullet profile for the Forster Ultra Micrometer's seating punch?



I am not sure what you mean but it will seat 230gr Berger Hybrids which have a loooong pointy ogive.

I think they altered it, I believe the older ones wouldn't work with the longer bullets.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
That's what I was talking about. Some seating punches are really specific to one particular profile, and will either leave a deformed ring on the ogive or just screw up the bullet altogether. If it works with really long, pointy bullets, it should handle any bullet pretty smoothly. Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 3:17:34 PM EDT
Who knows if they will ever be in stock again, but the Forster dies are CHEAP at Wideners. I already have the micrometer seater in the 223 and the benchrest seater (same design but without the micrometer) in 308, but they are under $50. If you want one now, just get them from Midway.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 6:07:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2015 2:06:35 AM EDT by Trollslayer]
I noticed this thread had popped up again. It's a good thread and I had a few spare minutes so I did some data processing.

The results:

1. The correlation between runout and group size is weak, at best, tending towards not correlated at all (correlation coefficient, R2 = 0.32). Group size increases with runout a a rate of 0.04 MOA per mil* of runout.

2. If you select just the low runout population (5 mils and under), runout is not correlated to group size (R2 = 0.05).

3. For the high runout groups (7 mils and over), there is some degree of correlation between group size and runout (R2 = 0.53) BUT...

(there's always a "but", isn't there?)

...as runout goes up, group size goes down. Group size decreases at a rate of -0.14 MOA per mil of runout.


I have not read all the posts in this thread but I have to say, the statistics do not agree with many/any of the conclusions people are drawing from the data.

I'm not raining on the parade so much as presenting an analysis of the results in the photos. I've done no "doctoring" of the data, I'm just reporting what is there. If you don't believe my numbers, process the data, yourself.

All my rifle bullet seaters are the Redding Competition type.

<flame suit on!>



* One mil is 1/1000" or 0.001"
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 2:13:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/31/2015 2:18:07 AM EDT by Trollslayer]
I wanted to add a few comments to my post above -

First off, that is an awesomely good test with some good shooting shown by you, popnfresh.

I did some more thinking about why the statistics are so contrary to what everyone wants to conclude from the data (even me). So, I offer this example of why the data does not support any strong correlation between runout and group size.

Consider what it takes to get a 0.8 MOA group. You can get it with 1.5, 4, 6 and 9 mil runout all gave good groups of 0.8 MOA.

Here's another example imbedded in the data. 3 mil runout gave the best group overall (0.26 MOA) but it also gave 1.02 MOA. 3 mil exhibited the largest overall spread in group size (0.26 MOA minimum and 1.02 MOA max).
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