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Link Posted: 2/15/2010 12:45:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HaveBlue83:
chris, once again, thank you for doing all that you do and keeping us updated.

Can't believe they can just up and change something like their own ruling. very......


This sort of crap can and does happen about every 4 years, not a co-incidence.

My spidey senses detect traces of HK and Colt all over it.

Link Posted: 2/15/2010 12:59:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:
good one sharkbit, that made the end of the day internal memo.


Glad you enjoyed it Chris. They always say that "Justice is Blind", but it never seems to have any problem finding it's way to the dollar.

Link Posted: 2/15/2010 1:32:13 PM EDT
Funny isn't it how the "technical experts" always seem to make things up as they go along. You can do that when there are no writted standards to follow.
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 3:34:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2010 3:35:17 PM EDT by USMC2147]
Chris,

I sent my rifle in today through the dealer (not just for this, but for re-doing the receiver coating as well as we discussed on the phone), when I showed him the print off from here he was stunned. They are a big gunshop here in IL, and they had no idea. I explained the situation to them, and that you had just informed us of the ruling and he was not amused to say the least. They have several of these in the back. I will give you a call tomorrow and follow up.

Thanks again for all your support!
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 6:21:22 PM EDT
Chris thank you for all of the info this truly sucks.
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 6:25:18 PM EDT
let me throw this out. ATF approves then decides over a year later that you should pay for there unqualified staff approving then changing there minds. The ATF should pay for this and/or they should amnesty these in like street sweepers . what a load of crap ,
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 6:49:00 PM EDT
soooooo....I wonder how many ATF agents personally own GSG-5SD's......



.....
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 7:28:04 PM EDT
^^^^ I'm sure a few. LEO likes toys, too!
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 8:19:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2010 8:20:52 PM EDT by 775Patriot]
Hey Chris,

So, with the turn of events, you were saying that the GSG522's will be coming in with the new fake suppressors, I was wondering if this was going to delay shipment of them as well as other goodies expected at the same time(drums)?


By the way, What a bunch of !!!!!!!!



etm:
Link Posted: 2/15/2010 8:25:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By osprey21:
This is what happens when do-gooders write letters to ATF asking for opinion rather than keeping their mouths shut.


+87

Link Posted: 2/15/2010 10:03:48 PM EDT
Chris,

When the replacement can is recieved will it also contain a letter stating that the can has been replaced with an approved can?
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 4:40:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 5:10:45 AM EDT
Still waiting on that 1911 with cash in hand...
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 5:11:50 AM EDT
Are not the sample submitted for approval kept by ATF? If indeed that is the case, it would be easy to compare one of the 15,000 with the sample to prove (or disprove) that BATFE screwed up.

Back in the old days, when BATFE screwed up there was an amnesty (e.g., FAL G-Series). I cannot believe the lack of accountabiity on the part of BATFE. I hope that ATI has involved their fine NYS representatives.

BTW, is there assurance that ATI is going to get an ITAR license to export 15,000 silencers for rebuild?
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 6:19:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 8:30:27 AM EDT
that's so fucked up
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 12:35:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 4:07:46 PM EDT
If the new fake suppressor looks just like the old one, how is ATF, your local neighborhood dealer, or an interested collector, to tell if a rifle has an old outlawed barrel shroud or a newly issued one?
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 4:29:49 PM EDT
Just took back my NFA fake can to the gun store. The manager did not know anything about it, and I was glad I had the
notice from ATI. He said that had not been contacted, and did not know what to do with the can(s) that they will get.
I can see a disaster forming here with my turned in can either disappearing or getting lost in the shuffle.

My thanks to ATI for explaining what has been happening. Without your input we would be stuck with
assumptions and guesses.

Respectful suggestion to ATI- Contact your distributors, have them do a computer search on what gun stores
were shipped SD models, and alert them. State clear expectations ie) Ship cans back by XXXX date, and contact
us for shipping information.

Thanks,
CaliRN
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 4:40:29 PM EDT
The above is true....

If this is an "internal" type change, how is the general populace supposed to know?

If you aren't a member of AR15.com, then you won't know a thing it seems like. Not everyone is internet savvy. Not everyone cares what's going on around the world and just want to enjoy shooting a .22LR

I'll be one of them. Until that point, call me a felon, call me going to jail, but until I get a letter from someone that says what to do, it's all plausible deniability. "I don't know anything about such a thing. Can you please point me in the direction to get this taken care of as soon as possible sir?" That's my response when the ATF comes a knocking
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 5:42:41 PM EDT
Plausible deniability DOES NOT WORK with the ATF.

You'll be lucky to escape with your household pets slaughtered.
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 7:45:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 7:45:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 8:01:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SETXshooter:
Does the fake can actually reduce the dB ? I know that "we must comply or else" but seriously, what is the reason behind this? Is it based on potential? Should we stop selling 2 liter colas and baby bottle nipples?

Isn't the end of the barrel even with the muzzle end of the "can"?

Wes


They better not... That's how I drink my beer!

They will take my beer too!!!! darn BATFE...

Link Posted: 2/16/2010 9:24:37 PM EDT
Chris, this is a true charlie foxtrot. I'm sorry for your guys' troubles here. Your company does things right and your getting dry f^&%ed.

Anyway, my biggest concern here is joe shmuckately, who bought this cool looking .22 for himself or kid. They could give two shits and a wooden nickle about internet gun forums, so how are they EVER going to find out they are commiting a felony if they don't swap out there barrel shroud (calling it what it really is)?

I'm truly sorry to hear all the crap such a great company has to endure, by the nincompoops who don't have to follow their own rules.
Go have a cold beer chris!
Link Posted: 2/16/2010 11:46:34 PM EDT
is it really that hard to get a suppressor for a 22 in the states?

honest question as here (UK) a suppressor for a 22 is fairly common and not at all hard to aquire legally - cant have all them bunnies running away after the first one drops.....
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 2:22:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2010 2:24:12 AM EDT by Mosin_Nagant]

Originally Posted By sh00ter787:
is it really that hard to get a suppressor for a 22 in the states?

honest question as here (UK) a suppressor for a 22 is fairly common and not at all hard to aquire legally - cant have all them bunnies running away after the first one drops.....

All silencers are treated the same legally, whether it's a .22lr or a centerfire.

You have to fill out a form with all your info and fingerprints on it, and get a signature from your local police chief, basically giving you permission. If you have a Trust or LLC, that circumvents the signature. Then it's a long wait (up to 3+ months) to get the form approved. All states have different laws on what you are allowed to have when it comes to NFA firearms; silencers, machine guns, short barreled rifles/shotguns, etc. Some allow all of them, some allow certain ones, and some allow none at all.

They are also really expensive compared to Europe, because of the red tape we have to go through, there isn't a huge market for them.

Here in Washington, we can own silencers, however it is ILLEGAL to actually use them within this state.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 6:09:40 AM EDT
Holy crap this sux.

It sux even more for ATI, though. I'll continue to patronize them, I love my GSGs!

If you also got an SD model, trust me, suck it up and get compliant. ATF does as it damn pleases and they have no sense of humor what so ever with stuff like this.

Stay alert and keep your powder dry. -LY
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 7:11:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2010 7:12:35 AM EDT by Crawlin]
ok, my question is, what's the timeline? I might have missed it.

I know ATI has been great for customer service. It's the whole reason I purchased one, cause you know you can count on the guys to help.

My problem comes in that I'm not gonna shoot the rifle unless it's a complete unit. Just my personal decision. So if I'm out of luck for a month, that's kinda bullshit.(just as a tiidbit of information, I do go shooting every week)

Should be that you send your copy of receipt as well as serial number in, THEN the new barrel shroud gets sent to you with a call slip to have the old shroud sent back. No downtime for customers who've been put into a very sticky situation.

Again, not saying it's ATI's fault or anything or demanding that this is how the situation should be handled. I just see it as a better alternative
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 8:45:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 11:08:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2010 11:13:56 AM EDT by Lone_Yankee]
Hang in there ATI, your fine products and superior customer service have earned you legions of faithful customers. We are still here.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 11:45:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2010 11:46:52 AM EDT by Martlet]
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:
ok, my question is, what's the timeline? I might have missed it.

I know ATI has been great for customer service. It's the whole reason I purchased one, cause you know you can count on the guys to help.

My problem comes in that I'm not gonna shoot the rifle unless it's a complete unit. Just my personal decision. So if I'm out of luck for a month, that's kinda bullshit.(just as a tiidbit of information, I do go shooting every week)

Should be that you send your copy of receipt as well as serial number in, THEN the new barrel shroud gets sent to you with a call slip to have the old shroud sent back. No downtime for customers who've been put into a very sticky situation.

Again, not saying it's ATI's fault or anything or demanding that this is how the situation should be handled. I just see it as a better alternative


I do understand what you are saying but unfortunately, ATI does not have control over the procedure that needs to be followed. The ATF is here, everyday now while this is going on. We cannot replace a fake shroud with out the original being accounted for by ATF. We can only import replacement cans as fast as they can be manufactured, which is a few thousand a month. We are lucky that ATF has not put an end date on the amnesty that they've offered but that's about all the luck we have had so far. I'm sorry it sucks but we are not in control of the procedures, just the execution.


So, essentially you don't have replacements even if they did sent them in? Will you let us know when there are replacements so we can send them? Who's paying for shipping?
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 12:49:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 1:34:34 PM EDT
there is absolutely no difference between the SD and carbine shroud besides the volume.
If the SD shroud is a NFA item, so is the carbine shroud....... PERIOD.

My feeling is that ATI will be hassled until they stop importing the GSG.
It is going to cost way too much money to fix this problem and if they have to recall the carbine shroud, I mean "can" that COULD cause ATI to shut its doors....

I will never return my shrouds.... Either my SD or carbine.
When the ATF comes knocking I will throw one of my approved form 1's in their face and tell them to quit harassing me.

I've talked to two gun stores and one said of they get any shrouds back they will instantly destroy them since they cannot be in possession of a NFA item.

How will ATI handle that situtation????

Also, what if the ATF changes its mind and does not let ATI import the new shroud?????

What is your plan if that's the case??

For the record, if I didn't have unused form 1's I would send my shroud in and HOPE I got a replacement in 9 months......

I feel for all the extra BS work you are going to have to do for this and I hope it still makes sense to stay in business because ATI knows what people want and I hope they continue to grow and keep offering clones of guns we all wish we could afford
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 2:12:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Crawlin:
ok, my question is, what's the timeline? I might have missed it.

I know ATI has been great for customer service. It's the whole reason I purchased one, cause you know you can count on the guys to help.

My problem comes in that I'm not gonna shoot the rifle unless it's a complete unit. Just my personal decision. So if I'm out of luck for a month, that's kinda bullshit.(just as a tiidbit of information, I do go shooting every week)

Should be that you send your copy of receipt as well as serial number in, THEN the new barrel shroud gets sent to you with a call slip to have the old shroud sent back. No downtime for customers who've been put into a very sticky situation.

Again, not saying it's ATI's fault or anything or demanding that this is how the situation should be handled. I just see it as a better alternative



You can still shoot the GSG without the shroud...
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 2:15:43 PM EDT
The website says the replacements will arrive in mid February...are there any on hand right now? I would rather ship mine out knowing the turn around would be fairly quick.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 2:35:30 PM EDT
I still ask, how can you tell a new shroud from an old. What if my buddy does a swap, and I don't. What if then I swap our shrouds. Is his then OK even though it's a "can" because his serial number matches one that got sent in? Is mine still illegal with the new shroud because there is no record of my serial number on file with ATI for a swap? How can the ATF, your local neighborhood dealer, or an interested collector determine if a barrel shroud is legit or not?
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 2:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2010 3:32:26 PM EDT by Martlet]
Never mind. Got my answer.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 3:34:40 PM EDT
NO!!

It just looks funny...... Unscrew it and check it out
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 4:48:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By customcruiser:
there is absolutely no difference between the SD and carbine shroud besides the volume.
If the SD shroud is a NFA item, so is the carbine shroud....... PERIOD.

My feeling is that ATI will be hassled until they stop importing the GSG.
It is going to cost way too much money to fix this problem and if they have to recall the carbine shroud, I mean "can" that COULD cause ATI to shut its doors....

I will never return my shrouds.... Either my SD or carbine.
When the ATF comes knocking I will throw one of my approved form 1's in their face and tell them to quit harassing me.

I've talked to two gun stores and one said of they get any shrouds back they will instantly destroy them since they cannot be in possession of a NFA item.

How will ATI handle that situtation????

Also, what if the ATF changes its mind and does not let ATI import the new shroud?????

What is your plan if that's the case??

For the record, if I didn't have unused form 1's I would send my shroud in and HOPE I got a replacement in 9 months......

I feel for all the extra BS work you are going to have to do for this and I hope it still makes sense to stay in business because ATI knows what people want and I hope they continue to grow and keep offering clones of guns we all wish we could afford


WOW...enjoy jail. I hate to tell you but just because you have a Form 1 on a gun doesnt give you the liberty to do anything you want to to it. It doesnt work that way. The barrel shroud is a completely seperate issue and has nothing to do with any paperwork you have run on the gun. As far as your gun store goes the ATF will come in there, audit the books, shut them down , and take away their license (and probably fine them). I was an FFL for quite a few years before I moved and gave up my license. I have seen it done and its easy for the ATF to do. The ATF gives amnesty periods so FFLs aren't in violation of the law.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 5:59:02 PM EDT
Form 1's for silencer mfg....

Hell, the dude told me he was gonna put the SD can on a pistol and see how quite it was..... I was floored.

I would not mess with the ATF
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 7:23:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2010 2:53:15 AM EDT by Abom]
Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:
We cannot replace a fake shroud with out the original being accounted for by ATF. .



Oh? How is that? I can't recall any laws to that effect.



Not to give you a hard time, ATI is doing a fabulous service that must cost a fortune, all because of some DF at ATF.

But please don't feed us ATF crap that they make up.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 7:35:36 PM EDT
Is ATI going to sue ATF for their mistake and the amount of money it's going to cost your company? This is complete BS. Someone needs to ban-hammer the BATF.
Link Posted: 2/17/2010 7:38:19 PM EDT
holy crap thats good customer service. i wish bushmaster would take note of how ATI deals with its customers.
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 5:26:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 6:48:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/18/2010 6:49:03 AM EDT by ATICSR_Christopher]
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 6:57:33 AM EDT
If the ATF is not going to put their amnesty in writing, then it does not exist. Hell, half of what the ATF writes doesn't mean anything anyways.

They can most certainly selective enforce their amnesty, and you won't know till they arrest you.
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 6:58:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ATICSR_Christopher:
This is the attached document that the ATF sent us with our revocation of the original fake suppressor. Hi-tec for sure but we did as they show, sent it from Germany to FTB and they gave us a new approval.

http://www.americantactical.us/images/shroud_diagram.jpg

So how is hand guard not a silencer?
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 7:18:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sh00ter787:
is it really that hard to get a suppressor for a 22 in the states?

honest question as here (UK) a suppressor for a 22 is fairly common and not at all hard to aquire legally - cant have all them bunnies running away after the first one drops.....


Our government's hard on for suppressors is fucking retarded.
Our government is fucking retarded.

Even American gun owners are retarded when it comes to suppressors. Legal suppressor at the range - "oh man, what do you have that for?". "So my fucking ears don't bleed and so the neighbors don't have to hear my noise" i get so tired of this bull shit.
Link Posted: 2/18/2010 8:03:32 AM EDT
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