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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "there is no statistical significance of muzzle velocity between BCM, Colt and Hodge" (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/13/2023 12:59:02 PM EDT
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In my Hodge Defense barrel review, which has gone to archive, a member posted the following statement: So if comparing between the 14.5 barrels, there is no statistical significance of muzzle velocity between BCM, Colt and Hodge He was referring to the table of muzzle velocities of M855A1 that I posted in that thread.  A quick statistical evaluation shows that there is definitely a statistically significant difference in the muzzle velocities between the Hodge barrel and the BCM barrel.  .... Hodge Defense 14.5” Barrel Accuracy: A Quick Look  For decades after the AR-15 was first introduced to the “civilian” market, shooters basically had three choices for barrel contours/profiles in factory-built AR-15s: government profile, HBAR (heavy barrel) and the original “pencil” profile. (Not even John Wick slayed as many bad guys “with a pencil” as our soldiers did with the pencil profile Colt AR-15 barrel). government profile  HBAR  John Wick profile  In the early 2000s, innovators such as John Noveske began offering alternative contours/profiles for their AR-15 barrels. These new contours were designed to offer improved weight distribution, with the attendant benefits, compared to the previously mentioned three profiles. For example, the Noveske medium-contour stainless-steel barrels offer reduced weight compared to an HBAR profile, while maintaining much of the accuracy of the HBAR profile. Noveske 16” medium contour  Noveske’s N4 “light” contour barrels maintain the same weight as a government profile barrel of equal length, but with an improved contour. As an example, the 16” Noveske N4 light barrel has a stripped weight of 1 pound 12 ounces, the same weight as a stripped 16” Colt government profile barrel (6920). Noveske 16” N4 light profile  Colt 16” government profile  In keeping with the approach to barrel contours of maintaining the same weight as a government profile barrel, while improving the weight distribution and in conjunction with additional improvements, Hodge Defense markets their own vision of such barrels and occasionally offers these barrels for sale to the general public. The stripped weight of the 14.5” Hodge Defense barrel is 1 pound, 8.5 ounces. For comparison, the stripped weight of a standard Colt 14.5” M4 barrel is 1 pound, 9 ounces. 14.5” Hodge defense Colt M4 barrel (not stripped)  The 14.5” Hodge Defense barrel is manufactured by Fabrique Nationale, to secret-squirrel specifications, for Hodge Defense. This barrel is cold-hammer-forged and has a 1:7” twist. The barrel employs a mid-length gas system and has a 0.75" gas block journal. The gas port on my barrel gauged at 0.075”.  A rather unique aspect of this barrel is found in the chamber. Located in the neck section of the chamber, is a ring of six triangular shaped “flutes“. The base of the triangle faces towards the breech end of the barrel.  I assembled the Hodge Defense barrel in a Bravo Company upper receiver and BCM MCMR 13” free-float hand-guard that has nearly perfect anodizing. I rounded-out this build with a JP Enterprises bolt, a Young Manufacturing bolt carrier and a BCM charging handle.   Shooting off of sandbags at a distance of 100 yards using match-grade hand-loads and a high-magnification scope, the Hodge Defense barrel produced a 10-shot group that had an extreme spread of 1.24”.   …… |
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Quoted: No environmental or ammo lot information. Just a temp change will increase or decrease velocity. Without more testing condition details, the above tables are not enough information. Same lot of ammunition. There was no temperature change. The environmental conditions as well as plenty of other information were posted here. ... |
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Quoted: Apparently they're a matter of national security, because Hodge refuses to answer questions about them. ...  Man, the Hodge stuff sure does have a cult of personality around it. I have a friend who works at FN I asked about the Hodge stuff being proprietary. He just laughed. |
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Quoted: Well if we are talking about "statistically significant differences", It was quite clear that I was taking about the velocity statistics of the the Hodge barrel and the BCM barrel that I tested, but by all means post your first hand data from your statistical analysis of the 10 Hodge barrels and 10 BCM barrels that you tested. ... |
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Quoted: Man, the Hodge stuff sure does have a cult of personality around it. I have a friend who works at FN I asked about the Hodge stuff being proprietary. He just laughed. Is the Hodge cult still going? All those guys paid 6k for an FN ar-15, convinced it was imbued with magical properties that made it superior to any other ar15. |
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Quoted: Is the Hodge cult still going? All those guys paid 6k for an FN ar-15, convinced it was imbued with magical properties that made it superior to any other ar15. Maybe, not sure to be honest. I'm just glad Molon is testing their barrel where we can all see what is real and what is imagined. Thanks @Molon |
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Quoted: Apparently they're a matter of national security, because Hodge refuses to answer questions about them. ... Jim told me what the difference in his barrels was once, but i forgot. I wish i was joking. We were at my work and i was somewhat focused on the task at hand, so his explanation didn't stick in my long term memory. He's a really nice guy and seems to enjoy talking technical details. Very knowledgeable. |
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Quoted: Jim told me what the difference in his barrels was once, but i forgot. I wish i was joking. We were at my work and i was somewhat focused on the task at hand, so his explanation didn't stick in my long term memory. He's a really nice guy and seems to enjoy talking technical details. Very knowledgeable. So important you forgot. That tracks with what I've heard. |
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Quoted: So important you forgot. That tracks with what I've heard. You don't know enough to know what you don't know. We were in the middle of something that required a lot of time and effort. A quick convo about barrel manufacturing isn't likely to stick in my head. I do know that his requirements broke the typical chain of the process and added a step or two. But hey, go ahead and hate on shit you don't understand. It's cool these days to have an opinion on things you don't actually know about. All the cool kids are doing it. I'd happily use Hodge parts. |
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Quoted: You don't know enough to know what you don't know. We were in the middle of something that required a lot of time and effort. A quick convo about barrel manufacturing isn't likely to stick in my head. I do know that his requirements broke the typical chain of the process and added a step or two. But hey, go ahead and hate on shit you don't understand. It's cool these days to have an opinion on things you don't actually know about. All the cool kids are doing it. I'd happily use Hodge parts. I'd happily use one of their barrels just like all the FN barrels I own, because they are the exact same thing. I'm just not paying a premium for them. |
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"If you know, you know." Yes, I know enough to know that I don't want. I like FN barrels. I also like Colt, Criterion, and probably would like Daniel Defense too. However I am not going to pay more for an FN just because it says Hodge on it or any other snake oil pusher. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Doesn't Larue flute their chambers Not really. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/larue_xtran_chamber_borescope_view_001-2679254.jpg ... Larue is as secretive as Hodge (seriously, what SAE grade of steel is "Rearden Steel"?) but just reading between the lines on their magical XTRAXN™ technology lead me to believe it was just a fluted chamber [shrug] |
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Quoted: Larue is as secretive as Hodge (seriously, what SAE grade of steel is "Rearden Steel"?) but just reading between the lines on their magical XTRAXN™ technology lead me to believe it was just a fluted chamber [shrug] Uh, does he mean like Rearden Steel in Atlas Shrugged? |
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Quoted: Uh, does he mean like Rearden Steel in Atlas Shrugged? Quoted: Quoted: Larue is as secretive as Hodge (seriously, what SAE grade of steel is "Rearden Steel"?) but just reading between the lines on their magical XTRAXN™ technology lead me to believe it was just a fluted chamber [shrug] Uh, does he mean like Rearden Steel in Atlas Shrugged? Yup, stole it from Ayn Rand and then had the gall to trademark it.  .... |
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Quoted: Yup, stole it from Ayn Rand and then had the gall to trademark it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/rearden_steel_002-2679458.jpg Sounds exactly like something ML would do  .... Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Larue is as secretive as Hodge (seriously, what SAE grade of steel is "Rearden Steel"?) but just reading between the lines on their magical XTRAXN™ technology lead me to believe it was just a fluted chamber [shrug] Uh, does he mean like Rearden Steel in Atlas Shrugged? Yup, stole it from Ayn Rand and then had the gall to trademark it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/rearden_steel_002-2679458.jpg Sounds exactly like something ML would do .... |
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Quoted: I'd happily use one of their barrels just like all the FN barrels I own, because they are the exact same thing. I'm just not paying a premium for them. No, they aren't the same. Yes, Jim has his barrels made by FN. No, they do not follow the same manufacturing process. |
| Don’t really care as long as it’s a good barrel. I did mention his velocity testing back after Molon first reported about it to the hodge crowd saying their barrels are faster than others. After I sent the article they advised me it was because it’s only on the 12.5” barrels that are faster. I laughed and told them don’t care, I just like CHF cL barrels |
| Nobody is saying that FN barrels, Hodge or otherwise, are garbage. But to charge $400+ on a barrel with no statical and/or technical data on what makes it worth that is an issue. You can't just claim something and then laugh it off when confronted about why it is better. |
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Quoted: Nobody is saying that FN barrels, Hodge or otherwise, are garbage. But to charge $400+ on a barrel with no statical and/or technical data on what makes it worth that is an issue. You can't just claim something and then laugh it off when confronted about why it is better. This needs to be repeated. No details, no care to spend that kind of money. That's what I know, if you know that then you know indeed what sayonara means. |
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Quoted: Nobody is saying that FN barrels, Hodge or otherwise, are garbage. But to charge $400+ on a barrel with no statical and/or technical data on what makes it worth that is an issue. You can't just claim something and then laugh it off when confronted about why it is better. People like you, me, and most others on this board would agree with that, but certain people will buy it for the inflated price because of the clout owning that product brings within their group or the perceived performance that little roll mark includes. It has nothing to do with actual performance in reality, because there is no quantifiable advantage, its all just talk. I don't think they're garbage at all. I have a pile of FN barrels myself, I just know Hodge is all marketing. |
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Quoted: No, they aren't the same. Yes, Jim has his barrels made by FN. No, they do not follow the same manufacturing process. Quoted: Quoted: I'd happily use one of their barrels just like all the FN barrels I own, because they are the exact same thing. I'm just not paying a premium for them. No, they aren't the same. Yes, Jim has his barrels made by FN. No, they do not follow the same manufacturing process. What's different? |
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Quoted: What's different? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd happily use one of their barrels just like all the FN barrels I own, because they are the exact same thing. I'm just not paying a premium for them. No, they aren't the same. Yes, Jim has his barrels made by FN. No, they do not follow the same manufacturing process. What's different? Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. |
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Quoted: Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. |
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Quoted: Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. Quoted: Quoted: Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. If you go to his tacked thread with links he has a comparison between multiple other manufacturers and Hodge in the same length with the same ammunition and testing conditions. |
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Quoted: If you go to his tacked thread with links he has a comparison between multiple other manufacturers and Hodge in the same length with the same ammunition and testing conditions. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. If you go to his tacked thread with links he has a comparison between multiple other manufacturers and Hodge in the same length with the same ammunition and testing conditions. I get it, but what I’m saying is we’d need 50 Hodge barrels, 50 Colt SOCOM barrels, and 50 BCM ELW barrels. Then we can start drawing conclusions. |
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Quoted: I get it, but what I’m saying is we’d need 50 Hodge barrels, 50 Colt SOCOM barrels, and 50 BCM ELW barrels. Then we can start drawing conclusions. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. If you go to his tacked thread with links he has a comparison between multiple other manufacturers and Hodge in the same length with the same ammunition and testing conditions. I get it, but what I’m saying is we’d need 50 Hodge barrels, 50 Colt SOCOM barrels, and 50 BCM ELW barrels. Then we can start drawing conclusions. He did 10 of them. Id call that pretty significant. Scroll about half way down |
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Quoted: Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. Quoted: Quoted: Well, one thing that is factually different is they produce less velocity than comparable barrels from other manufacturers. Molon has proven that much. Granted, it’s a sample size of 1. We’d need a lot larger sample size in order to draw definitive conclusions. Funny how it's never required that the Hodge fan boys need to show "a lot larger sample size to draw definitive conclusions". Colt, Bravo Company etc aren't the ones running around claiming that their barrels produce higher velocities than everyone else. Here's some more "sample sizes" for you. Quoted: Proven, repeatable velocities of common off the shelf 855 (from Hodge rifles) . . .  Proven, repeatable velocities of two different lots of common, off the shelf M855, chronographed from five different Colt barrels.   Quoted: Black Hills MK262 (from Hodge rifles)  Black Hills MK262 chronographed from three different Colt barrels.  ….. |
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Quoted: I get it, but what I’m saying is we’d need 50 Hodge barrels, 50 Colt SOCOM barrels, and 50 BCM ELW barrels. Then we can start drawing conclusions. Don't just sit there typing on your keyboard Sparky. Let's see you pony up some of your time, your money and your equipment and test those 150 barrels and then post your results here for free. ... |
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I’ll have to dig through that thread, I see where he tested 5 Colt barrels with M855 and 3 Colt barrels with Mk262, but they were of different barrel lengths. |
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Quoted: Don't just sit there typing on your keyboard Sparky. Let's see you pony up some of your time, your money and your equipment and test those 150 barrels and then post your results here for free. ... First of all, not a Hodge fanboy lol. I don’t own a single thing from Hodge. Second, I didn’t say it was practical, I said it would allow us to draw more definitive conclusions. Simmer down chief. |
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Quoted: First of all, not a Hodge fanboy lol. I don’t own a single thing from Hodge. Second, I didn’t say it was practical, I said it would allow us to draw more definitive conclusions. Simmer down chief. Quoted: Quoted: Don't just sit there typing on your keyboard Sparky. Let's see you pony up some of your time, your money and your equipment and test those 150 barrels and then post your results here for free. ... First of all, not a Hodge fanboy lol. I don’t own a single thing from Hodge. Second, I didn’t say it was practical, I said it would allow us to draw more definitive conclusions. Simmer down chief. So your "if you know you know" post was made in jest? |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - "there is no statistical significance of muzzle velocity between BCM, Colt and Hodge" (Page 1 of 2)
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