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Posted: 9/13/2021 7:36:27 PM EDT
Hodge Bolt Carrier Fails To Meet US Mil-Spec
The drawing in the technical data package for the M16 shows that the inside diameter of the main section of the gas-key on the bolt-carrier should be 0.1805” with a tolerance of plus 0.0008”. Therefore, the maximum allowable inside diameter of the main section of the gas-key is 0.1813”. None of the gas-keys on my Colt, JP Enterprises, Young Manufacturing or Bravo Company bolt-carriers have failed to meet this specification.  Last week I purchased a brand-new Hodge Defense bolt carrier group. The inside diameter of the gas-key gauged at 0.1825”. FAIL.   …. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 7:45:41 PM EDT
[#1]
Do you think it will cause any problems?
Gas leaking into the upper and shooter's face? Insufficient energy to reliably function the rifle? I wonder what a well worn carrier key measures? I have never bothered to measure mine before. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 7:56:55 PM EDT
[#2]
A #15 drill bit measures .1800".
A 4.6mm drill bit measures .1811" and would fall inside the window of acceptance. I imagine they need custom drill bits or reamers to reach their goal. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 7:58:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think it will cause any problems? Gas leaking into the upper and shooter's face? Insufficient energy to reliably function the rifle? I wonder what a well worn carrier key measures? I have never bothered to measure mine before. Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think it will cause any problems? Gas leaking into the upper and shooter's face? Insufficient energy to reliably function the rifle? I wonder what a well worn carrier key measures? I have never bothered to measure mine before. It will be less efficient at least. Quoted: A #15 drill bit measures .1800". A 4.6mm drill bit measures .1811" and would fall inside the window of acceptance. I imagine they need custom drill bits or reamers to reach their goal. Supposedly they were made to the specs for a chrome lined key, but were nitrided. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 8:27:35 PM EDT
[#4]
Hodge is a joke.
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Posted: 9/13/2021 8:34:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodge is a joke. I don’t care for the whole Hodge thing but I do like his barrels. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 8:49:21 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodge is a joke. Yeah, I don't get it. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 8:54:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will be less efficient at least. Supposedly they were made to the specs for a chrome lined key, but were nitrided. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you think it will cause any problems? Gas leaking into the upper and shooter's face? Insufficient energy to reliably function the rifle? I wonder what a well worn carrier key measures? I have never bothered to measure mine before. It will be less efficient at least. Quoted: A #15 drill bit measures .1800". A 4.6mm drill bit measures .1811" and would fall inside the window of acceptance. I imagine they need custom drill bits or reamers to reach their goal. Supposedly they were made to the specs for a chrome lined key, but were nitrided. Chrome won't make up for .0012. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 8:57:25 PM EDT
[#8]
In!
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Posted: 9/13/2021 9:04:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In! Same, interesting observation! I wonder what PSAs is |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 9:06:39 PM EDT
[#10]
Still in-spec for instagram glamor shoots
 I don't really care about Hodge one way or another. Their barrels seem to generate a lot of velocity, which is cool I suppose. The hype beasts can have it. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 9:21:54 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t care for the whole Hodge thing but I do like his barrels. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hodge is a joke. I don’t care for the whole Hodge thing but I do like his barrels. What’s so good about the barrels? I thought the velocity thing was proven bullshit a long tima ago? |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 9:31:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What’s so good about the barrels? I thought the velocity thing was proven bullshit a long tima ago? The 14.5 is a soft shooter with a perfect size gas port at .074, chf, good profile (not gov.). I haven’t shot any groups for accuracy yet, will post once i do. |
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Posted: 9/13/2021 9:43:36 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chrome won't make up for .0012. The dimension quoted by Molon is after chrome plating. It could be corrected by rechroming the inside. You can chrome plate up to .010" if necessary. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 5:11:03 AM EDT
[#14]
I would like to see how the internals are chrome plated....as having dealt with a lot of chrome plating in my days on machienry journals, chroming internal oil passages and other non-standard surfaces is not easy...I can see how holding tolerance is very difficult.
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Posted: 9/14/2021 5:27:12 AM EDT
[#15]
OP, I fail to see why it's such a big deal or why we should be talking about it.
Perhaps you could enlighten me? |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 6:58:02 AM EDT
[#16]
I read somewhere that Colt was curb-stomping those who made public portions of the TDP. Maybe I inferred it from a Small Arms Solutions vid.
Is that not true? Maybe they stopped doing it? Ancient history? I've never seen a Hodge IRL. I am also someone who doesn't "get" why they are so sought after and expensive, other than being unobtanium. Doesn't FN make their barrels? To Hodge's specs? Interesting thread. So many questions. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 8:24:56 AM EDT
[#17]
I have a reply to the question, but dont want to go around @Molon and what he was tring to say
I think the issue with Molon's OP was that Hodge is discussed here in some threads as the holy grail And now there is a Hodge BC that does not meet TDP specificartions....I think that is the point he is trying to make.....correction as necessary ETA: Chris with Small Arms Solutions is very adamant on not giving up the TDP information, as he always says he does not need a law suit from Colt |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:02:38 AM EDT
[#18]
He’s probably an infected thorn in Colt’s side that won’t shut up and go away and they’d be a little more interested in giving him a pony pounding than some guy on arfcom.
As to calling Hodge out? They act like their shit is the best of the best of the best but all it is is commercial off the shelf stuff and a few things he has made to ‘his’ specs. Their marketing strategy is to only make a limited amount of everything, drop half of it to instathots, and let the guys on Reddit hit F5 for weeks on end to get a chance to pay 4X for out of spec and/or repackaged parts. Stupidity. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:03:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, I fail to see why it's such a big deal or why we should be talking about it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? Pay a premium and you have expectations, whether that's Colt/LMT/KAC/etc. A gas key that doesn't meet the TDP spec, raises questions. Are Hodge parts spec'd this way or is this QC problem? If spec'd, are they consistent across the board? If spec'd this way, why? Full disclosure, I am not a fan of Hodge. But I can be objective and have no personal reasons to run the company down. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:11:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I read somewhere that Colt was curb-stomping those who made public portions of the TDP. Maybe I inferred it from a Small Arms Solutions vid. Is that not true? Maybe they stopped doing it? Ancient history? Four words: Freedom of Information Act ... |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:11:46 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would like to see how the internals are chrome plated....as having dealt with a lot of chrome plating in my days on machienry journals, chroming internal oil passages and other non-standard surfaces is not easy...I can see how holding tolerance is very difficult. Glad you pointed that out. Chrome isn't like a paint, that you just dip a part in. To do that small of bore (actually any bore), it need a target (an electrode) set up down the center of the bore, and some way to circulate the chroming salts through at the same time. I've done a few 2-cycle cylinder bores over the years, and it takes a bit of time setting up before hanging the piece in the tank. Years ago, when I picked up my first 308 Armalite, and seen that they chromed the bolt bore in the carrier, though "Nice", and thought that was the norm. Other Armalite carriers I had were the same. But the latest pistol caliber upper I just got, isn't... Damn. 
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:18:14 AM EDT
[#22]
I see the point.
Why pay $189 for a out of spec BCG, when you can pick up a BCG that's actually in spec for much less. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 10:30:38 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I see the point. Why pay $189 for a out of spec BCG, when you can pick up a BCG that's actually in spec for much less. When PSA has toolcrafts for less than $100, and it is known Toolcraft is an OEM for many AR manufacturers, I don't see the point in gucci bcgs. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:30:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Hodge is the SUPREME of the gun world.
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Posted: 9/14/2021 3:20:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the velocity thing was proven bullshit a long tima ago? Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the velocity thing was proven bullshit a long tima ago? Quoted: Proven, repeatable velocities of common off the shelf 855 . . .(fired from Hodge barrels)  Proven, repeatable velocities of two different lots of common, off the shelf M855, chronographed from five different Colt barrels.   …. Quoted: Black Hills MK262 (fired from Hodge barrels)  Black Hills MK262 chronographed from three different Colt barrels.  …. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 3:34:42 PM EDT
[#26]
It’s hard to hang with a Colt barrel ??
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Posted: 9/14/2021 7:18:31 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Four words: Freedom of Information Act ... 
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Posted: 9/14/2021 7:20:35 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When PSA has toolcrafts for less than $100, and it is known Toolcraft is an OEM for many AR manufacturers, I don't see the point in gucci bcgs. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 7:24:30 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Proven, repeatable velocities of two different lots of common, off the shelf M855, chronographed from five different Colt barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/IMI_m855_muzzle_velocities-1984289.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/imi_m855_2009_chrono_data_02b-1984403.jpg . Black Hills MK262 chronographed from three different Colt barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/blackhills_mk262_muzzle_velocities_03-1984309.jpg . Surprising that the SD is greater for the longer barrels. I would have expected shorter barrels to have larger SD |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 7:36:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He’s probably an infected thorn in Colt’s side that won’t shut up and go away and they’d be a little more interested in giving him a pony pounding than some guy on arfcom. As to calling Hodge out? They act like their shit is the best of the best of the best but all it is is commercial off the shelf stuff and a few things he has made to ‘his’ specs. Their marketing strategy is to only make a limited amount of everything, drop half of it to instathots, and let the guys on Reddit hit F5 for weeks on end to get a chance to pay 4X for out of spec and/or repackaged parts. Stupidity. Isn't his slogan "if you know, you know"? Apparently he is referring to his stuff being massively over valued. Hodge has a huge snob following because it's expensive, and I've yet to see a single good argument as to why anything he does is better than other actual top tier mfg. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 7:39:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't his slogan "if you know, you know"? Apparently he is referring to his stuff being massively over valued. Hodge has a huge snob following because it's expensive, and I've yet to see a single good argument as to why anything he does is better than other actual top tier mfg. That’s the irony, Hodge doesn’t manufacture anything. Their parts are spec’d out to OEMs |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:30:33 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the irony, Hodge doesn’t manufacture anything. Their parts are spec’d out to OEMs This always gets a mention as if it's an exposure or hit of some kind, but he is quite open about that. His public interviews/podcast about his company explain everything well. Basically he's a guy that had enough industry connections to where he could spec his ideal duty AR, and his business is an offshoot from his passion and other industry jobs he's had. I don't say "them" because his complete rifles may still be assembled by Jim himself at his home. I just say this to put things in context. I think his barrel and handguards are his best stuff, but if it's not your thing, nobody really cares. ETA: As for this bolt carrier, seems unfortunate. It would be interesting to send it back with an explanation why and see what we find out. |
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:36:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Oops, please delete.
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Posted: 9/14/2021 11:56:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I don't get it. I've been saying this for a minute now. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 12:07:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Ah hodge, the man behind the man graciously reaching around to give that man a helpful hand. I remember his shot show debut where SMGLee shilled the shit out of him while providing zero information, got called out for it and took off poutting.
Does he make or spec good stuff? Don't know or care thanks to that debacle. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 3:34:21 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP, I fail to see why it's such a big deal or why we should be talking about it. Perhaps you could enlighten me? It failed, which is actually a big deal to AR15.com members. It's exactly why we should be talking about it. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 3:38:37 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Proven, repeatable velocities of two different lots of common, off the shelf M855, chronographed from five different Colt barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/IMI_m855_muzzle_velocities-1984289.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/imi_m855_2009_chrono_data_02b-1984403.jpg …. Black Hills MK262 chronographed from three different Colt barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/28568/blackhills_mk262_muzzle_velocities_03-1984309.jpg …. Dang. That's eye opening. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 3:52:17 AM EDT
[#38]
I'm Hodge-free atm. At the end of the day, I can't support the way he does business.
With that said, one if his 12.5" barrels is on my radar
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Posted: 9/15/2021 9:09:29 AM EDT
[#39]
Hodge has built his following on exclusivity, and he openly admits it. While he does use some materials that could be considered “better” than mil-spec (LiAl receivers, 7075 handguards), there’s nothing really special about them other than the fact they’re hard to get. And Americans HATE not being able to get something, so he uses that to his advantage. He’s a good marketer that builds rifles of better-than-average materials. And, from the looks of it, not necessarily better-than-average quality.
From this interview Q: Even with these components floating around, on some of the forums I frequent, the sight of a Hodge logo seems to generate a bit of buzz. Well, those components are out there. But my uppers, lowers, barrels, handguards…I don’t flood the market. It’s kind of created a secondary market. So, it’s like being in a club in a way…having something that is a little bit more exclusive than some one else’s. Not necessarily just in quality, but you go to the range and you see a bunch of different guns out there…well, you’ll probably never see a Hodge. But when you do, my hope is, and people still don’t know my brand, but my hope is there’s someone there saying “holy crap, where did you get that!?” That’s my goal. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 9:22:50 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodge has built his following on exclusivity, and he openly admits it. While he does use some materials that could be considered “better” than mil-spec (LiAl receivers, 7075 handguards), there’s nothing really special about them other than the fact they’re hard to get. And Americans HATE not being able to get something, so he uses that to his advantage. He’s a good marketer that builds rifles of better-than-average materials. And, from the looks of it, not necessarily better-than-average quality. From this interview Q: Even with these components floating around, on some of the forums I frequent, the sight of a Hodge logo seems to generate a bit of buzz. Well, those components are out there. But my uppers, lowers, barrels, handguards…I don’t flood the market. It’s kind of created a secondary market. So, it’s like being in a club in a way…having something that is a little bit more exclusive than some one else’s. Not necessarily just in quality, but you go to the range and you see a bunch of different guns out there…well, you’ll probably never see a Hodge. But when you do, my hope is, and people still don’t know my brand, but my hope is there’s someone there saying “holy crap, where did you get that!?” That’s my goal. Honestly, that's a douche move. Here's one less person to compete with for snake oil. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 9:24:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Hodge makes good rails. Everything else I'd go elsewhere for.
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Posted: 9/15/2021 9:40:30 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s the irony, Hodge doesn’t manufacture anything. Their parts are spec’d out to OEMs There's nothing wrong with that. I'll be relying on oem's for most of the parts on my rifles for a while once i start production. Heck, all the top manufacturers do to some extent. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 10:57:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's nothing wrong with that. I'll be relying on oem's for most of the parts on my rifles for a while once i start production. Heck, all the top manufacturers do to some extent. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That’s the irony, Hodge doesn’t manufacture anything. Their parts are spec’d out to OEMs There's nothing wrong with that. I'll be relying on oem's for most of the parts on my rifles for a while once i start production. Heck, all the top manufacturers do to some extent. I never said there was anything wrong with it. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 12:21:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hodge is a joke. How many Hodge rifles or components do you own and use? |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 12:43:03 PM EDT
[#45]
I have a radian BCG with a gas key larger than .182. Runs fine in the gun over numerous rounds. I think nitride gas keys being out of spec is more common than people realize.
Did you try to run it and it cause failures or did you just measure it? |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 12:51:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many Hodge rifles or components do you own and use? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Hodge is a joke. How many Hodge rifles or components do you own and use? None. Because it’s a douchebag company that builds douchebag rifles for douchebag customers. I’m not their target demographic. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 12:52:07 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a radian BCG with a gas key larger than .182. Runs fine in the gun over numerous rounds. I think nitride gas keys being out of spec is more common than people realize. Likely more than just nitrided offerings to be honest. Many commercial manufacturers open the specs for reasons that they deem advantageous. Does HD even claim these as "milspec"? Because they are not. (9310/nitride)....vendor web page descriptions regarding specs are all over the map. |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 1:47:26 PM EDT
[#48]
Interesting to know... I almost bought a few of those Hodge BCG's when on sale over the Labor Day weekend.
I would have bought them over a Toolcraft, based on a perception of a more QC,"Milspec" BCG from Hodge. @Tigwelder1971 "Hodge Defense Systems bolt carrier groups are no frills, melonited bolt carrier groups made to Hodge’s specs which mirror MILSPEC standards." Hodge's webpage sucks ( IMHO ) so I can't quote from their webpage, but numerous webpages have the same above claim concerning the Hodge BCG. I have to say , I am a little let down about the Hodge gas key dimensions... and with that said, I have never bothered to check any of my BCG's gas key internal dimensions. ( Ignorance is bliss ?! ) and they all work fine. ( But, I am going to get some pin gauges in that size just to check, out of morbid curiosity ) In the big picture, the Hodge gas key being out of spec is what they must mean by "no frills". Given the cost... I can't imagine they are individually checked, but are probably "batch" tested. "If you know... then you know" is now going to be ironically etched into my pea sized mind with this issue.... before it was the weird chamber neck cuts, and maybe there was something to those cuts, but now I don't seem to care as much. Anyone know Who makes these BCG's for Hodge ? ( just askin' and I realize it is Double Top Secret/ If you know, then you know thing... Lol ) As for the Americans always want limited availability stuff... that comment is dead on right. Look at the "Toilet Paper shortage / panic ". Lol Marketing and the Press ( and Politician's ) will never let a "Good Crisis go to waste." |
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Posted: 9/15/2021 1:52:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks for the info, love your posts!
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Posted: 9/15/2021 2:08:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: None. Because it’s a douchebag company that builds douchebag rifles for douchebag customers. I’m not their target demographic. I understand disliking the way that HDSI markets and manipulates demand for his brand. But y’all sound so bitch made crying on the Internet cause you can’t get his products. Some of y’all behave like teenage girls. |
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