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Posted: 10/12/2004 3:39:30 PM EST
i'm sorry i'm sure this has been asked before, but what is the best ar-15 22 upper for the money ?
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:44:16 PM EST
You're going to get everyone's opinion on this. Perhaps it would be better if you asked this question in the context of your shooting plans, accuracy expectation and how you want to rig it up...
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:53:41 PM EST
been there with a DPMS,got rid of it and got a CEINER.Some have had to mess with theirs but mine has run like a top and I am pleased as punch with it.I can slip it into whatever upper I feel like shooting and blast away.I have hopes new reasonable priced 30rd mags are soon to be had.With match standard vel ammo mine is a near tackdriver.It will shoot 3/4" @ 50 yard with wolf MT off the bench if I do my part on the trigger
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:19:15 PM EST
I'm very happy with my DPMS, $400 from CheaperThanDirt. It'll shoot rings around (or more accurately, rings INSIDE) any "bolt only" conversion. You can get more expensive uppers, but they won't do THAT much better, if at all.

Plaskon should be by shortly to back me up on this.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:33:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 5:06:41 AM EST by madone]
shermy, I too have been wondering the same thing,

DPMS, Bushmaster, CZ, Kuehl for dedicated uppers
or
CEINER bolt changeout...

Personally I am leaning toward a dedicated upper so that leave the top grouping. I am still on the fence however. I want it to be accurate, and I want it to have be threaded for a suppressor. (oh, and it MUST have at least a 30 rd mag option)

Currently I am leaning torwards the DPMS or Kuehl

the Kuehl (Ceiner modifed custom) has 10 and 30 rd mags...NOW.
the DPMS (30?) is still in prototype stage...

I know this has been talked about before but any info you guys have out there would be really helpful to both myself and shermy

Edit: Oh, also can you please clarify this: Is there any 22LR AR that will lock back the slide after the last round?

Thanks guys!

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:45:12 PM EST
AFAIK, the Air Force conversion is the only one that locks bolt back on last shot. I can tell you for a fact that the DPMS will not even let you lock the bolt back manually. Not a huge deal--I learned to count to ten in Kindergarten.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:46:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By shermy:
i'm sorry i'm sure this has been asked before, but what is the best ar-15 22 upper for the money ?



DPMS

It's the only one that comes in 'Standard AR' configurations (your choice of A2 HBAR or M4)...

The Ciener kit is ok, except the crap left in your .223 barrel by undersized .221 soft-lead bullets....
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:53:02 AM EST

DPMS...It's the only one that comes in 'Standard AR' configurations (your choice of A2 HBAR or M4)...

Don't let what you own prejudice your advice...

Pics from the Kuehl website:




These units look just like standard ARs, even down to the charging handle. I'm not sure if the DPMS uses a standard upper or charging handle. Perhaps someone will let us know
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:40:55 AM EST
really what i'm looking for is more of a training aid. i want all the same function as the ar-15. accuracy not a real factor just want a plinker.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:59:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 7:01:59 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

DPMS...It's the only one that comes in 'Standard AR' configurations (your choice of A2 HBAR or M4)...

Don't let what you own prejudice your advice...

Pics from the Kuehl website:

www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/14.5%20M4%20A2%20upper%20tan%20small%20sgn.jpg
www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/images/midlength%20CAR%20quarter%20size%20ad.jpg

These units look just like standard ARs, even down to the charging handle. I'm not sure if the DPMS uses a standard upper or charging handle. Perhaps someone will let us know



I wasn't counting the 'custom' uppers that require an additional (separate) Ciener kit..

Kuehl Unit:
20" heavy barrel, 416 SS, CMP service rifle configuration $620 + Ciener Kit

DPMS Unit:
20" heavy barrel, 416 SS, CMP service rifle configuration $400 COMPLETE

As for the parts, I *HAVE* a DPMS NM A2 unit.

It DOES use a standard AR upper, charging handle, and all other parts EXCEPT the .22LR barrel and .22LR bolt-carrier assembly.

It even uses a standard DCM float-tube & standard NM sights, which will be 'migrating' to my .223 AR soon enough...

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:50:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By shermy:
really what i'm looking for is more of a training aid. i want all the same function as the ar-15. accuracy not a real factor just want a plinker.


I guess the closest you can come to regular AR function would be the Air Force M-261 kit that locks the bolt back. Aside from the bolt lock issue everything but the CZ works like the regular AR. (The CZ has a side charging handle.) The Army M-261 kit I think uses mag inserts so the mags are your real .223 mags. Ciener mags can have cut-up non-USGI .223 mags sleeved over them to feel like regular mags. The others use mags that resemble the 20-round USGI, but aren't exact. Any of the kits have the advantage that the upper is the .223 upper so all of your optics, rails, lights, etc. are the same. The disadvantage is that they get the upper pretty dirty and accuracy isn't all that great. Snake45 did some accuracy testing and has good numbers. My less rigorous testing shows that the Ciener gives groups about twice as large as an out of the box 10/22.

In the dedicated uppers the best deal right now is probably the DPMS if you can live with 10-round mags and/or wait for the hi-caps DPMS says they're working on. The best deal if you need hi-caps right away or need full-auto is the Kuehl uppers based on the Ciener kit. KKF is pretty close to Kuehl in price but still uses the chamber adapter so likely isn't as accurate. Accuracy Speaks and Compass Lake are high-dollar uppers aimed at the high-power shooter, with accuracy to match of course. The Kuehl and DPMS seem to be as accurate or better than most out-of-the-box .22 rifles.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 10:18:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By shermy:
really what i'm looking for is more of a training aid. i want all the same function as the ar-15. accuracy not a real factor just want a plinker.


Then you probably want to just drop in a Ciener kit for $159 (or whatever they go for these days). If you want to plink, just stick with the plated stuff which should help with lead buildup in the gas system.

I'm not sure how we went from "Standard AR" to "CMP legal" uppers, but yes, there is a price difference. Kuehl is more of a hobby shop building these when there weren't other price sensitive options. Compass Lake being an even more high priced options.

Now that DPMS is in the picture, they have the abilty to force prices lower. Two years ago I went with Kuehl, as the DPMS lineup was not well defined, but today I may have made a different choice.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:39:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mike_L:
Snake45 did some accuracy testing and has good numbers. My less rigorous testing shows that the Ciener gives groups about twice as large as an out of the box 10/22.


Remember, my "good numbers" came out of a 1:12 barrel, and even then only with a couple brands of ammo (Win Dynapoints particularly). My results with a 1:9 barrel were about like yours--VERY disappointing.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 11:54:12 AM EST
I meant "good numbers" in that they were fired under good bench conditions, carefully measured, and written down--a good test--not necessarily good groups. As opposed to my dim recollections of last summer's shooting which I might be remembering wrong.

2" at 25yds comes to mind, but I think that was iron sights and elbows rested on the table. I don't think it's really quite that bad. I can do 1.25" at 50yds with a Marlin bolt-action on a bipod but I don't think the Ciener does that good even with the match lower and 16x scope. I've only shot it in 1/8 and 1/9 twist barrels though.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:13:04 PM EST
In a 1:9 barrel, most everything was grouping up near an inch or more @ 25 yards, which I do NOT consider good accuracy. The 60-gr Aguila SSSs were putting four out of 5 around a half inch, with the fifth one always out somewhere.

That old 1:12 barrel, on the other hand, has taken a real liking to Dynapoints. It will shoot groups at or under 1/2" all day long, last TWO times I shot several groups for measurement it averaged right around 3/8" @ 25, which I consider pretty darn good. Haven't shot it at paper at 50 yet, but I WAS plinking fist-sized rocks and dirt clumps off the 125-yard backstop with it that day. Pretty darn impressive, I'd say. I really wish I could get the 1:9 barrel to do nearly as well. I really like my midlength and would love to hose hundreds of .22s through it, but not if it won't shoot better than 4MOA. Ah shucks oh well.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:53:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 1:04:37 PM EST by nhsport]
I may have an Ceiner that is not typical but here is what I have found.
Box stock Ceiner bought new from Brownells within the last year.
I only have three uppers and all are Bushmaster factory stock 1/9 chrome.I have a 20" plain barrel (no FH or comp),a supperlight plain barrel,and a 16"oa with ak factory comp.
Shooting the reccomended high vel copper coated ammo,(fed,rem golden,cci mini mags ect)the function is good but it groops 1 1/2-2" at 25 yd.To me this is somewhat worse than a stock 10/22.
I replaced the factory trigger and found the jewell didn't work hardly at all and some of the aftermarket
lightweight springs (I tried a JP I think)that work fine with the stock 223 setup don't fire the .22lr in a reliable manner.
The Rock River NM trigger and spring work like a charm for me,I got a smother ,crisper,and lighter trigger which has been quite reliable.
I get 1" groups @ 50 yards with CCI sandard or fed 711B target
With Wolf MT I am going to claim 3/4 " at 50 yard.This is a good steady bench and bags with a 20X scope on a low wind day takeing my time on ten shot groups.
I have a real good 10/22T (target model) with a nice trigger that will outshoot the Ceiner with good target ammo,but not by much.
I honestly think the trigger is the limiting factor .
YMMV but ignore the Ceiner recomendations and try some standard velocity ammo.
Ceiners (or any .22 semi) will run dirty.I have had better results without oil as this glops all the grit into the action.I use a silicone spray or a dry moly lube,this seems to run longer between cleanings.
Sorry for the long post but I feel most people haven't given Ceiner a honest shot.
EDIT to add-Ceiner uses your standard chargeing handle but doesn't lock back automaticly or manual.If shooting a match you need a safety flag or something to show a clear chamber.Ceiner mags will get crap blown down them but are built nice and pop apart for easy cleaning and 30rd are here right now if you pay the price.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:39:58 PM EST
If you're getting groups that good from a 1:9 barrel, good for you, I couldn't do it--and I tried.

I also tried running my M261 "dry" to minimize internal gunk and that didn't work for me either. It would only function with MiniMags and sometimes Fed Bulks. Kept well lubed, it runs perfectly on the Win Dynapoints, which are subsonic. They're also copper-washed. After my initial testing just to see what would work, I won't put any more lead bullets through my AR barrels, just the copper washed stuff, out of respect for the gas tube, which is getting along just fine so far. I have a sneaking suspicion that the gas tube gets gunked up not by LEAD, but by the waxy lube that all lead bullets carry--no problem with the copperwashed stuff. Although be advised that MiniMags also have waxy junk over the copper! The Walmart Fed Bulks operate the gun fine but accuracy is only about 5/8-3/4" @ 25, although the box of them before last seemed to be unusually accurate and would group right with the Dynapoints. There's only three good things about the Fed Bulks--they're cheap, they're reliable, and Walmart almost always has them in stock. (Dynapoints are more expensive and harder to get where I live, but definitely worth the extra 1/2c apiece when I can find them!)
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:48:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By Snake45:
I'm very happy with my DPMS, $400 from CheaperThanDirt. It'll shoot rings around (or more accurately, rings INSIDE) any "bolt only" conversion. You can get more expensive uppers, but they won't do THAT much better, if at all.

Plaskon should be by shortly to back me up on this.hr


Hahaha, good call, Snake.

The DPMS is robust, good-looking, and fully-featured.
It comes in all configs: A3 flattop, A2 iron sight, rifle or carbine length.
DPMS customer service is A+.
Mine functions quite reliably using Winchester Wildcats ammo.
Unlike Ciener, No gas tube.
It's so good, I decided to sell my once-beloved customized 10/22.

You'll probably love it, too.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:08:46 PM EST
where does one find a m261 ?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:56:48 PM EST
Equipment Exchange. . . .
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:26:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By shermy:
where does one find a m261 ?


You're prolly better off with a Ciener these days. The M261s are gone, parts are drying up for them, whereas there's no end in sight to the Cieners. The Cieners are reliable, or can be made so, and the accuracy depends on how well your ammo likes your particular barrel and has little if anything to do with what conversion lit the round off. If I didn't already own an M261, I wouldn't feel bad about having to "settle" for a Ciener.

But the DPMS upper is still a FAR better solution to the problem if you can un-ass four balloons for one!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:13:23 AM EST
I bought a couple of the Kuehl uppers for a number of reasons -
The barrel is set back in the receiver, so it meets the 16" minimum but looks more like a 14.5"
30 round mags were available & with the end of the ban, are even more so & cheaper.
Rick cuts off the piece that fills the 5.56 chamber so there's no jump to rifleing.
The Ciener is the only one I know of that will work in full auto - also wanted 30 round for that.
Unless DPMS added it, their uppers don't have a bayo lug - not much use but looks more military.
Rick does nice work.
The only drawback is price, but then if I wanted cheap I would have bought a used 10/22 (no offence to the 10/22 fans, it's probably my next buy).
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:25:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 5:27:27 AM EST by madone]

Unless DPMS added it, their uppers don't have a bayo lug - not much use but looks more military.


FYI: I just talked to DPMS about this yesterday.

Here is a copy of the email:

Message:

...on this page: http://www.dpmsinc.com/22_lr.html looking at the PANTHER™ AP4 TRAINING RIFLE 22LR PRE BAN (RFA2-AP422) There does not seem to be a bayonet lug.

BUT, when I go to your store I want to order this item: .22LR AP4 Barrel Assembly (Pre Ban) - BA-22LAP4 which does show a bayonet lug. Will BA-22LAP4 come as pictured? (with lug)



DPMS Reply:

Yes this upper assembly will come with a bayonet lug. It is a misprint on the one page of our web site.




Rick cuts off the piece that fills the 5.56 chamber so there's no jump to rifleing.

Can anyone who has a DPMS upper tell me is there is a jump?
I am still deciding between thesse 2 uppers.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:38:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Southern_Raider:

Originally Posted By shermy:
really what i'm looking for is more of a training aid. i want all the same function as the ar-15. accuracy not a real factor just want a plinker.


Then you probably want to just drop in a Ciener kit for $159 (or whatever they go for these days). If you want to plink, just stick with the plated stuff which should help with lead buildup in the gas system.

I'm not sure how we went from "Standard AR" to "CMP legal" uppers, but yes, there is a price difference. The reason is that DPMS's 20" upper is a NM/CMP upper, at $400. They do not offer a 20" 'Standard AR' configuration, so to do a fair comparison, I put it up against the equivalent KCF unit Kuehl is more of a hobby shop building these when there weren't other price sensitive options. Compass Lake being an even more high priced options.

Now that DPMS is in the picture, they have the abilty to force prices lower. Two years ago I went with Kuehl, as the DPMS lineup was not well defined, but today I may have made a different choice.



Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:40:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By madone:

Unless DPMS added it, their uppers don't have a bayo lug - not much use but looks more military.


FYI: I just talked to DPMS about this yesterday.

Here is a copy of the email:

Message:

...on this page: http://www.dpmsinc.com/22_lr.html looking at the PANTHER™ AP4 TRAINING RIFLE 22LR PRE BAN (RFA2-AP422) There does not seem to be a bayonet lug.

BUT, when I go to your store I want to order this item: .22LR AP4 Barrel Assembly (Pre Ban) - BA-22LAP4 which does show a bayonet lug. Will BA-22LAP4 come as pictured? (with lug)



DPMS Reply:

Yes this upper assembly will come with a bayonet lug. It is a misprint on the one page of our web site.




Rick cuts off the piece that fills the 5.56 chamber so there's no jump to rifleing.

Can anyone who has a DPMS upper tell me is there is a jump?
I am still deciding between thesse 2 uppers.



DPMS uses a barrel that is originally chambered for .22LR. There is no adapter and no jump.

It is also 'set back' into the reciever a little over an inch.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:02:48 AM EST

It is also 'set back' into the reciever a little over an inch.


So is the 16" 22LR AP4 Barrel Assembly a "shorter" design like the Kuehl design so it has the apperance of a 14.5 barrel?

Or is it 16"+
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:55:54 AM EST
I'm currently working on a Kuehl upper. I've been using the Ciener kit with my centerfire uppers for some time, but I'm looking for a little more accuracy. In addition to the reasons mentioned above, another plus with the Kuehl is that you can buy just the .22 barrel (either stripped or with the FSB). I already have a spare flat top upper receiver, old M4 handguards, and some other useful parts, so this seems to make more sense for me. I'm not sure if DPMS will sell just the barrel and bolt. Check you spare parts box; you might be further along on this project than you realized.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 8:56:28 AM EST

Check you spare parts box; you might be further along on this project than you realized.

This is another reason I went with Kuehl. Also, the DPMS upper just wasn't in full production at that time either. My upper ran about $560, but I was able to orchestrate trades for some of the components, which helped keep costs down.



Again, with the increased DPMS offering, their production based pricing and the expiration of the AWB, I may not have done the same thing today.

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 11:39:25 AM EST
My "preban" DPMS M4 .22 came without the bayonet lug--no big deal as you can't use it on M4 configuration anyway.

Barrel is set back a little, though prolly not a full 1.5". Here's what it looks like if you're interested:

Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:07:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 7:08:27 PM EST by doc_Zox]
has leitnerwise ever shipped their 22lr AR?

theres one other thats based on the DMPS:
www.jprifles.com/22uppers.shtml
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 2:17:41 PM EST
There is an outfit in Arizona by the name of Accuracy Speaks. They can build a dedicated .22 upper to fit any one of the adapters (Ceiner, M261,Colt, Air Force) available. They use a Douglas premium 1/16 barrel. It is a true .22 chamber, so the chamber adapter is not used, only the .22 bolt and magazine. They will make any configuration you want ie - A1, A2, flat top etc. For instance, I have a Colt SP-1 with the beaver tail hand guards, no forward assist, three prong flash hider, bayo. lug.I wanted an upper to duplicate my SP-1 as close as possible. I got just what I wanted. The exception was in the barrel diameter - the Douglas barrel has a larger diameter than my SP-1. They even got a Colt upper, so the color and finish of both lower and upper are an exact match. What Service!!! The functions (except for last round hold open) are the same as the .223. The accuracy is just outstanding. The 100 yd accuracy with the dedicated upper is better than 25 yd accuracy using the adapter thru the.223 barrel. I recommend that you check Accuracy Speaks out . I don't have their number handy, but they have a web site. Good luck. Johnny Lawson


Link Posted: 10/16/2004 2:45:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By cosworth:
There is an outfit in Arizona by the name of Accuracy Speaks. They can build a dedicated .22 upper to fit any one of the adapters (Ceiner, M261,Colt, Air Force) available. They use a Douglas premium 1/16 barrel. It is a true .22 chamber, so the chamber adapter is not used, only the .22 bolt and magazine. They will make any configuration you want ie - A1, A2, flat top etc. For instance, I have a Colt SP-1 with the beaver tail hand guards, no forward assist, three prong flash hider, bayo. lug.I wanted an upper to duplicate my SP-1 as close as possible. I got just what I wanted. The exception was in the barrel diameter - the Douglas barrel has a larger diameter than my SP-1. They even got a Colt upper, so the color and finish of both lower and upper are an exact match. What Service!!! The functions (except for last round hold open) are the same as the .223. The accuracy is just outstanding. The 100 yd accuracy with the dedicated upper is better than 25 yd accuracy using the adapter thru the.223 barrel. I recommend that you check Accuracy Speaks out . I don't have their number handy, but they have a web site. Good luck. Johnny Lawson







how salty is this?
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