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7/8/2020 3:01:36 PM
Posted: 11/20/2008 5:38:29 PM EDT
hello all
I got stationed down here at uscg station freeport and I had 2 cavalry arms mkII lower receivers transferred from dsg arms in fort worth,tx to my so called dealer down here in clute,tx. Well my lowers arrived at my ffl dealer today and I thought great so I went to pick them up. when i got there the owner of the shop said he can not give them to me because I am under 21 (I am 19). He said because they are stripped lower receivers he can't give them to me. He tried to explain to me that it is because of the new of 4473s that they have to fill out it says right on there that they can't because it is not a complete rifle. I looked the new forms over and it makes no sense at all. So now on monday he is sending them back to dsg arms. so now have know damn idea what to do. should i let him send them back and have dsg arms send them to another ffl dealer in my area or what. Is this guy blowing smoke up my ass or what. am i missing something here like the atf changed something or what. i have never had this problem before with my receivers.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 5:43:53 PM EDT
Find a different FFL in Clute.  There must be several of them.  Or come up to San Antonio and check out some of our FFLs.  Your choice there is obviously very concerned about not getting into trouble with the ATF, but the best way to do that is to know what you're doing.  He obviously doesn't.

For local FFLs, check out the Texas Hometown forum.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:04:32 PM EDT
With the new 4473  A lower must go to someone over 21

Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:13:12 PM EDT
Sorry bro as of October ATF says stripped lowers can only be sold to 21+.
Complete rifles 18+

Sorry for the let down.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:15:31 PM EDT
A stripped lower is no longer classified as a rifle, it now goes into a different category requiring age 21+. But I think if you put a stock on it and a lower parts kit then it's classified as a rifle, but don't quote me on that. You should call other FFLs and see what they say.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:24:49 PM EDT
wow that really dumb...IMO
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:35:45 PM EDT
Wow. I knew about the change on the 4473s, but I hadn't thought about the odd case of Cav MkII lowers. BATFE's form changed because stripped lowers can become pistols or rifles, but a Cav MkII can't become a pistol.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:42:26 PM EDT
yea, doesn't make much sense on a Cav Arms
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:49:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By USMC223:
Sorry bro as of October ATF says stripped lowers can only be sold to 21+.
Complete rifles 18+

Sorry for the let down.


It been like that since the GCA of 1968 the new 4473 just clarifies that.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 4:45:20 AM EDT
I guess I should eat a little crow on this issue.  But the FFL in Clute could have done a lot better job of explaining the issue and maybe even helped the guy out a little, like by offering to "build" the lowers into rifles by installing a standard rifle stock on 'em.  It sounds like he came off as a real jerk to Coastie1.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:10:02 AM EDT
Hmm, must be AJC Sports Shop.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:29:12 AM EDT
It a real let down...sorry my friend.

Basically since you can build an AR lower in either a rifle OR a pistol you must be 21 to own a stripped lower.  Complete rifles are a different story since once logged as a rifle on the manufacturers prodution and sales logs, you can not legally build a rifle into a pistol.  It a real bummer for the you enthusiests.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:47:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I guess I should eat a little crow on this issue.  But the FFL in Clute could have done a lot better job of explaining the issue and maybe even helped the guy out a little, like by offering to "build" the lowers into rifles by installing a standard rifle stock on 'em.  It sounds like he came off as a real jerk to Coastie1.


Cav lowers already have the stock as an integral part of the lower:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/MKII.html

About as far as you can take that is an SBR, definitely can't become a pistol.

Yeah, sounds like dealer might have been a little rough, but who knows.

Coastie, on the bright side, I'm sure you can re-sell those lowers through the EE or something without any trouble. :)
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:59:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
But the FFL in Clute could have done a lot better job of explaining the issue and maybe even helped the guy out a little, like by offering to "build" the lowers into rifles by installing a standard rifle stock on 'em.


Not sure how that would work with:





Link Posted: 11/21/2008 6:12:56 AM EDT
Have a friend buy it for you.  Its legal, not a straw purchase because your legal to own it, just not buy it.  Its like your dad giving you a shotgun for your 16th birthday.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 6:17:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 6:21:09 AM EDT by BumpFireNHaveMoreFun]
Actually having a friend buy it for you defines a straw purchase!  But getting it as a birthday gift might be acceptable.  (It's all in the wording .)

Hwever to whom posted the one piece lowers / stocks.  That is a very interesting idea.  I wonder how that would work...  It seems to me that IS a rifle.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 6:45:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 6:50:54 AM EDT by j_king]
+1 on having a friend buy it for you.  It is legal to own one if you are under 21 just not buy one (some FFL's have cared in the past while others haven't; I've bought a couple myself and some required a 21 year old, its kind of up to their discretion).  I had the same problem recently but my girlfriend (who is 21, I will be in a couple months) bought a few lowers for me as a Christmas present.  No problems at all.  She paid for them and they ran a background check on her while I was standing right there.  After it cleared she handed them to me and said "Merry Christmas".  The FFL had no problem at all with it.  Sorry for the story but that is what I would do if I were you.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 6:48:45 AM EDT
well yea its all about intent, it could be a "happy election" present!!!
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:06:39 AM EDT
I had the same problem when I tried to buy a stripped lower. However, I didn't order any before hand. Instead, I bought a complete lower.

I still don't get it because I can easily take off the stock and put on a pistol buffer tube. I can take the stock off my AK or cut the stock off any other rifle.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 7:09:15 AM EDT
Build it out there to the point he considers it a rifle then have it transferred.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:14:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AzNooB:
I had the same problem when I tried to buy a stripped lower. However, I didn't order any before hand. Instead, I bought a complete lower.

I still don't get it because I can easily take off the stock and put on a pistol buffer tube. I can take the stock off my AK or cut the stock off any other rifle.


In your example it is you who converted a rifle to a pistol. You are taking all responsability for willfully breaking the law. An FFL dealer is highly unlikely to willfully break the law to sell one guy a couple of lowers. His business is at risk and asking him to break the law for you is unreasonable.

If you choose to break a law you do so at your own risk.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:20:23 AM EDT
That kinda sucks. Your lucky to have the money for an AR15 at 18 though. I didn't have that kinda money back then.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:39:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
I guess I should eat a little crow on this issue.  But the FFL in Clute could have done a lot better job of explaining the issue and maybe even helped the guy out a little, like by offering to "build" the lowers into rifles by installing a standard rifle stock on 'em.  It sounds like he came off as a real jerk to Coastie1.



Originally Posted By Mxpatriot51:
Build it out there to the point he considers it a rifle then have it transferred.



The FFL cannot build the lowers into anything. That would require him to be a manufacturer.

The FFL dealer is correct as far as I know. It is not his fault the rules are that way.


Link Posted: 11/21/2008 9:15:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By edlmann:
Originally Posted By GHPorter:
But the FFL in Clute could have done a lot better job of explaining the issue and maybe even helped the guy out a little, like by offering to "build" the lowers into rifles by installing a standard rifle stock on 'em.


Not sure how that would work with:

http://www.cavalryarms.com/MKIIs.jpg






Yep even though they cannot be made into a pistol they are still a stripped lower receiver and cannot be transfered to anyone under 21.  
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 12:36:12 PM EDT
thanks alot guys, at first I was pretty mad about it but it is what it is,no matter how stupid the law is. I just really wanted to of the cavalry arms lowers but i guess i will just have to pick up a couple at the gun show in pasadena tomorrow. that will give me to more rifles to build and a total of five.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 4:19:57 PM EDT
Try calling the ATF and see if they can make a judgement on the Cav Arms lower since the stock is permanently attached. Also contact Cav Arms and see what they say, maybe they have had this problem in the past or have already done the leg-work for you.
The ATF may make a new ruling for Cav Arms lowers....well..never hurts to ask.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 4:27:55 PM EDT
so, you can purchase a complete lower at 18? and man, ive always wanted a Cav Arms lower in Coyote. someday, when they are available again
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:18:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bansheeman6100:
so, you can purchase a complete lower at 18? and man, ive always wanted a Cav Arms lower in Coyote. someday, when they are available again


No, in some places you can't.  Thats his problem.
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:21:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By j_king:
Originally Posted By Bansheeman6100:
so, you can purchase a complete lower at 18? and man, ive always wanted a Cav Arms lower in Coyote. someday, when they are available again


No, in some places you can't.  Thats his problem.


You cant but them anywhere from a FFL

you could however buy them face to face from another individual

Link Posted: 11/21/2008 5:56:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By j_king:
Originally Posted By Bansheeman6100:
so, you can purchase a complete lower at 18? and man, ive always wanted a Cav Arms lower in Coyote. someday, when they are available again


No, in some places you can't.  Thats his problem.


You cant but them anywhere from a FFL

you could however buy them face to face from another individual


Purchased mine at 20 about 6 months back.  No problems.  I think that was before things were getting a little more strict.

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