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Posted: 12/11/2003 10:51:11 AM EDT
Ok, so its only an M16A4. Man, I would hate clearing buildings with that optic
     U.S. soldiers search for weapons during a pre-dawn blitz against fedayeen cells in Saddam Hussein 's hometown of Tikrit, north of Baghdad, as former Iraqi strongman's portrait lies smashed on the floor, Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003. US forces from the 1st Battalion, 22nd Regiment of the 4th Infantry Division raided two homes and detained three men believed to be leaders of an insurgent cell responsible for attacks against American troops and Iraqi civilians in Saddam Hussein's volatile hometown and seized a large weapons cache. (AP Photo/Efrem Lukatsky)  A soldier of U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division (Task Forse Ironhorse) guards a detained member of a fedayeen organization, during a night raid in Saddam Hussein 's hometown of Tikrit, north of Baghdad, Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003. Acting on an informant's tip, U.S. troops arrested three men believed to be leaders of an insurgent cell responsible for attacks against American troops and Iraqi civilians in Saddam Hussein's volatile hometown and seized a large weapons cache. (AP Photo/Efrem Lukatsky) |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 10:55:16 AM EDT
[#1]
[img]http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=487938[/img]
They really need to get those guys some A1 length stocks. Or mabye CAR stocks would be better. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 11:28:17 AM EDT
[#2]
From Lumpy196 Ok, so its only an M16A4. Man, I would hate clearing buildings with that optic You would be better off using it is a club. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:31:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Actually, if you just used the scope to silouhette on the target, it would probably do fine.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:49:28 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Actually, if you just used the scope to silouhette on the target, it would probably do fine. Hawkeye In lower light conditions? I look like the scope is rather large with a higher minimum magnification. In low light conditions, wouldn't everything be a blur. Could you give me a little more info as to how you would "silouhette" target. Thanks PS. Lumpy196, sorry to hijack your thread. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 12:55:02 PM EDT
[#5]
This is where I'd expect to see an aimpoint being used instead of the chosen optic. Looks like a cumbersome setup for an operation where clearing apartments inside small buildings is anticipated. However, I wouldn't want to be the fedayeen in focus on the other end of that glass!
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:08:47 PM EDT
[#6]
this is easy. if it's a Leupold close the front lens cover the crosshairs will "reflect" and act as reflex scope and let you get a rough zero. if it's not keep the scope open and ignore the image in the scope and just look at the crosshairs. keep both eyes open and let your. it takes practice but is dooable.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:32:56 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: [url]http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=487938[/url] They really need to get those guys some A1 length stocks. Or mabye CAR stocks would be better. No, he just needs to grow a little bit. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:48:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: this is easy. if it's a Leupold close the front lens cover the crosshairs will "reflect" and act as reflex scope and let you get a rough zero. if it's not keep the scope open and ignore the image in the scope and just look at the crosshairs. keep both eyes open and let your. it takes practice but is dooable. It maybe doable, but its NOT fast...which is kinda necessary at room distances. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:49:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Actually, if you just used the scope to silouhette on the target, it would probably do fine. Hawkeye In lower light conditions? I look like the scope is rather large with a higher minimum magnification. In low light conditions, wouldn't everything be a blur. Could you give me a little more info as to how you would "silouhette" target. Thanks PS. Lumpy196, sorry to hijack your thread. To continue the hijack, what he means is just place the outline (silhouette) of the scope over the COM and pull trigger. I can make it work out to about 15 feet or so. Basically, you are just using the scope as a way to index the rifle, not look through it. You don't even have to have the scope covers open - in fact, it works better if at least one is closed. It is very similar to handgun 'point' shooting where you place the outline of the slide over the center of the target and fire without lining up the sights in a classic sense. I have not tried what 308wood suggests, but that might be another option. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 1:55:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: this is easy. if it's a Leupold close the front lens cover the crosshairs will "reflect" and act as reflex scope and let you get a rough zero. if it's not keep the scope open and ignore the image in the scope and just look at the crosshairs. keep both eyes open and let your. it takes practice but is dooable. It maybe doable, but its NOT fast...which is kinda necessary at room distances. give it a shot. i think it will suprise you just how fast you can become. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:21:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Next trip to the range, I'm giving 308Wood's jig a try.
Just notice something about the pics, two different guys with similiar but different setups. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 2:44:31 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: give it a shot. i think it will suprise you just how fast you can become. I have. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:42:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Two words...point shooting!
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Posted: 12/11/2003 3:54:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Actually, if you just used the scope to silouhette on the target, it would probably do fine. Hawkeye In lower light conditions? I look like the scope is rather large with a higher minimum magnification. In low light conditions, wouldn't everything be a blur. Could you give me a little more info as to how you would "silouhette" target. Thanks PS. Lumpy196, sorry to hijack your thread. To continue the hijack, what he means is just place the outline (silhouette) of the scope over the COM and pull trigger. I can make it work out to about 15 feet or so. Basically, you are just using the scope as a way to index the rifle, not look through it. You don't even have to have the scope covers open - in fact, it works better if at least one is closed. It is very similar to handgun 'point' shooting where you place the outline of the slide over the center of the target and fire without lining up the sights in a classic sense. I have not tried what 308wood suggests, but that might be another option. Exactly what I was referring to. Exactly the same way you would a handgun. No, its not the best setup for what is being done, but, you have to know how to make use of what you have, as best you can. While its not the "optimal" setup, I would feel like I could still effectively take care of business. Men have made do without night sights and Aimpoints, and Acog's for many years at night. Again, optimal, no....doable, yes. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:00:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Why would you send two guys with long range optics to clear a house?
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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:03:30 PM EDT
[#16]
No idea. Maybe they were the closest to the bldg and it needed to be cleared.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:28:55 PM EDT
[#17]
Lets just hope he doesnt ever run into a room with a bad guy with an AK with a woman and some kids as his backdrop.
He could obviously point shoot in SOME circumstances. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 6:28:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Guys
We dont always have time to dig into a ruck and pull out the best optic for the Job, and most the time you have no time so you do with what you got. In this case DevL is right "reactive or Instinctive" or "point Shooting" is trained and used. I wish I always had the time to sit down in my house at the table and make sure I had the right tool for the Job but it just don't happen that way. In this case look over the scope, muzzel low and sqeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!!! I bet they wish they had Lumpy196's or Hawkeye's Carbines, or new-arguys SPR-bine instead of those M5s though, hahahahahahhaahhahahaLOL!!! Gosh I wish we had been issued ARMS Throw lever mounts when I was deployed! Look at the Mounts they have. cp out! |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 7:53:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Lumpy again coming through with the cool pics! I actually saw part of this clip on the news this evening.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 8:04:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Wow, Im slow today. I just noticed, its two different guys with 2 different guns. So the scope must be unit procured.
Too bad they dont have an Aimpoint to put in FRONT of of the 3x9 [:D] |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 9:05:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: No idea. Maybe they were the closest to the bldg and it needed to be cleared. |
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Posted: 12/11/2003 9:06:29 PM EDT
[#22]
I would think the most important weapon they could have would be experience and quick reflexes - who knows when a door could fly open and a hostile with AKM spraying lead on full auto could pop out. Orders or not, that kind of house-clearing action takes brass balls.
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Posted: 12/11/2003 9:45:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Why would you send two guys with long range optics to clear a house? Maybe they are just clearing their way to higher ground/shooting position. CH |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 3:22:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Cool pictures Lumpy, thanks for sharing.
Quoted: Quoted: No idea. Maybe they were the closest to the bldg and it needed to be cleared. Ok, now that's funny! Somewhat of a rash generalization, but still funny. [LOL] I think most of us figured all that out. They were just saying it wouldnt be ideal! Welcome to ar15.com. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 4:12:43 AM EDT
[#25]
15ladder, thanks for posting and sharing your experience... thats what AR15.com is all about. The site has been helping people do that for some years now. But we generally try to help when we can, not point fingers or call names.
BTW, for what its worth, Hawkeye, they guy it seemed like you called sherlock, and suggested stop left clicking his Johnson and go out and join the military... well, he's done his time and served his country. Maybe thats why he had an answer to the question. See, thats the way we try to share info here without making other people who dont know feel like idiots. By doing it this way, we keep ourselves from looking like idiots too! [:D] |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 5:41:33 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: No idea. Maybe they were the closest to the bldg and it needed to be cleared. Hmmm. I'm in a good mood today. Welcome to AR15.com. |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 6:56:00 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No idea. Maybe they were the closest to the bldg and it needed to be cleared. Hmmm. I'm in a good mood today. Welcome to AR15.com. Aw, dang, Hawkeye, did you HAVE to take the high road? Can't wait to see 15ladder's next post, I must admit. An ego that size makes for great entertainment! |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 7:47:00 AM EDT
[#28]
An ARMS setup with the picatinny rail/scope ring topped off with a Doctor Optics red dot would solve this situation.
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Posted: 12/12/2003 8:46:51 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: An ARMS setup with the picatinny rail/scope ring topped off with a Doctor Optics red dot would solve this situation. That would be kinda like New-arguys. [:D] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/pe1e03d6db826d9dcf65bd37197caa904/fc129802.jpg[/img] |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 10:53:54 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Hmmm. I'm in a good mood today. Welcome to AR15.com. I can almost feel the restraint... |
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Posted: 12/12/2003 10:12:27 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: An ARMS setup with the picatinny rail/scope ring topped off with a Doctor Optics red dot would solve this situation. That would be kinda like New-arguys. [:D] [url]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid63/pe1e03d6db826d9dcf65bd37197caa904/fc129802.jpg[/url] For some reason this pic is the funniest thing I have seen in a thread in a long time. Starts out with to guys clearing a house with what they have to this.. Hahahaha. LOL way to funny. Please post some more..... |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 5:00:20 AM EDT
[#32]
It's clear, 15ladder, that you know whereof you speak. It's also a fairly reasonable inference that since I've never served in the military, my opinion wouldn't count for much with you. I have GOT to say, though, that your line about "left-clicking your johnson in your mother's basement" had me chuckling. Talk about mixing your metaphors.
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Posted: 12/13/2003 6:09:20 AM EDT
[#33]
Gentlemen
I apologize for my rude intro. This is a great site, ton of info.But I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. And this forum's ability to rack up comments on those photos gave it an air of 'muttering from a distance' which lit my(regarding US Military) already short fuse. My doctor(Dr Bombay Sapphire) says I'm doing much better now. I'll consider my pee-pee duly whacked,and I'll just sit in the corner there and won't bother anybody. |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 6:30:02 AM EDT
[#34]
Wow - Somebody snaps out a quick reply and everyone
actually stops to think from where it comes instead of replying in a mess of BS that just chases our own tails. I actually kind of like it for a change!! Happy Holidays and nice to see a couple of guys shakeing hands and acting like gentlemen. Oh yeah,Thanks for the cool pics NHSPORT |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 7:58:04 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Gentlemen I apologize for my rude intro. This is a great site, ton of info.But I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. And this forum's ability to rack up comments on those photos gave it an air of 'muttering from a distance' which lit my(regarding US Military) already short fuse. My doctor(Dr Bombay Sapphire) says I'm doing much better now. I'll consider my pee-pee duly whacked,and I'll just sit in the corner there and won't bother anybody. By all means, please participate. No need in sitting in the corner. Info can only be of value, if it is passed on. |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 8:27:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. The adults here are just as concerned about the people in Iraq as you are. Welcome to the board. |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 8:38:33 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. The adults here are just as concerned about the people in Iraq as you are. Welcome to the board. Roger that. Extremely concerned. |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 9:11:32 AM EDT
[#38]
[red][b][size=6]GROUP HUG!!!![/size=6][/b][/red]
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Posted: 12/13/2003 9:19:48 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Gentlemen I apologize for my rude intro. This is a great site, ton of info.But I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. And this forum's ability to rack up comments on those photos gave it an air of 'muttering from a distance' which lit my(regarding US Military) already short fuse. My doctor(Dr Bombay Sapphire) says I'm doing much better now. I'll consider my pee-pee duly whacked,and I'll just sit in the corner there and won't bother anybody. So now that we have someone fresh from the theater of operations, I am dying to ask the question: In your opinion, is the M16/M4 weapons system still up to the job in Iraq? Or is it time to look for a replacement? I am talking about suitability for mission, reliability in dusty, arid environments, and overall effectiveness against the threats faced. I would really like to know how it fared over there in your opinion. Thanks _DR |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 9:20:58 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: [red][b][size=6]GROUP HUG!!!![/size=6][/b][/red] [slap] Get your hand off my butt! |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 9:28:07 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Quoted: [red][b][size=6]GROUP HUG!!!![/size=6][/b][/red] [slap] Get your hand off my butt! But you said you liked it? [;)] |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 1:35:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Let me clear that up-I was a grunt in the 3rd ID Germany 1984-87. I was a M60MG and Bradley gunner.(The gunner's station was the left side of the turret-guess that makes ME a left-clicker!) Our biggest worry was the East German border. Suitability of the M4, M16? Hey, this is not our first shooting trip into Iraq. "Lessons learned" are not always"problems solved" I did read that a shipment of dry lube was held up because the US Mil did not want to admit that Break-Free wasn't getting the job done. Sooo, 6.8mm? Lethal bullet, but still an AR platform, susceptible to Middle East dust. Let's ask the IDF! Ahhh,what do they know about fighting in the desert. XM8? H&K built a factory outside FT Benning. Like Beretta did for the 9 mil. BOHICA, my man. I hope they issue a cleaning kit with it. They forgot them once.
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Posted: 12/13/2003 1:52:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: Quoted: Gentlemen I apologize for my rude intro. This is a great site, ton of info.But I was a grunt and I love every one of those grunts who are in Iraq right now. And this forum's ability to rack up comments on those photos gave it an air of 'muttering from a distance' which lit my(regarding US Military) already short fuse. My doctor(Dr Bombay Sapphire) says I'm doing much better now. I'll consider my pee-pee duly whacked,and I'll just sit in the corner there and won't bother anybody. So now that we have someone fresh from the theater of operations, I am dying to ask the question: In your opinion, is the M16/M4 weapons system still up to the job in Iraq? Or is it time to look for a replacement? I am talking about suitability for mission, reliability in dusty, arid environments, and overall effectiveness against the threats faced. I would really like to know how it fared over there in your opinion. Thanks _DR Ughh! please no more about the XM8[:D] |
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Posted: 12/13/2003 4:12:33 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Let me clear that up-I was a grunt in the 3rd ID Germany 1984-87. I was a M60MG and Bradley gunner.(The gunner's station was the left side of the turret-guess that makes ME a left-clicker!) Our biggest worry was the East German border. Suitability of the M4, M16? Hey, this is not our first shooting trip into Iraq. "Lessons learned" are not always"problems solved" I did read that a shipment of dry lube was held up because the US Mil did not want to admit that Break-Free wasn't getting the job done. Sooo, 6.8mm? Lethal bullet, but still an AR platform, susceptible to Middle East dust. Let's ask the IDF! Ahhh,what do they know about fighting in the desert. XM8? H&K built a factory outside FT Benning. Like Beretta did for the 9 mil. BOHICA, my man. I hope they issue a cleaning kit with it. They forgot them once. Funny you should mention the IDF...I was just reading about them dropping the M4/M16/Galil for the Tavor. I always like to get opinions from those who served, my experience was 8 years in mech infantry (81-89) but I never got out of CONUS. I prefer the AR/M16 because it's what I know, but I am also aware of it's shortcomings from my own experiences. I always like to hear about other experiences from those who depended on their weapons for their livelihood. |
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Posted: 12/14/2003 11:04:51 PM EDT
[#45]
I really liked the "left-clicking your Johnston" comment myself...
The Tavor is a turd...Hope the IDF don't do something they'll later regret... |
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Posted: 12/15/2003 5:13:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [red][b][size=6]GROUP HUG!!!![/size=6][/b][/red] [slap] Get your hand off my butt! But you said you liked it? [;)] Yeah, but your not my wife! [banana] |
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Posted: 12/15/2003 9:30:45 AM EDT
[#47]
I honestly don't understand why they aren't issued ARMS Quick detach mounts with the optics. It's basically like sending 2 snipers to do CQB work, with sniper gear. I guess the US Govt is too poor to give the snipers quick detach capability.
They shouldn't be so poor, considering that I basically work for free to pay my taxes (wife makes much more than I do - Pharmacist pay vs factory worker pay, and our combined taxes are more than I make each year - that SUCKS). |
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Posted: 12/16/2003 9:22:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Hmmm.....this thread has got me thinking........hmmmmmm.........[?]
[thinking] |
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