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Posted: 8/25/2004 7:22:16 PM EST
If the price was between $600 and $800 .
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:41:32 PM EST
Yes.

Lots and lots of them in all lengths.

And then I'd buy some for the shop.

I'd rather have the complete gun of course, the little 0/1/30 pictographs on the FA guns are badass.

(Standing fast for incoming BS on how HK is solely overpriced useless Eurotrash jagoffs who hate America and our filthy US dollar.)

J.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:49:47 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:01:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 8:03:15 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
If the price was between $600 and $800 .



No

The whole point of the AR system is that it's NOT piston operated...

This is why it's basically the best design out there at present...

The HKM4 is HK's reaction to the MP5 being replaced by M4s in LE service... So HK had to 'roll their own' version to keep their MP5 customers...

They should have stuck with the HK53... Much better than the G36 system (roller lock (good) vs piston (bad))...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:06:52 PM EST
I want to thank you guys for your mature responses. Unlike some of the other people posting in the forums.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:12:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 8:13:01 PM EST by Juggernaut]

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
I want to thank you guys for your mature responses. Unlike some of the other people posting in the forums.



Agreed. Factual reasons for disagreeing, rather than mindless emotional opinionated drivel.

Dave-A wasn't the main objecton to using the piston system weight? I've held the HK m4 and the spring and op rod add a few ounces at best, and fit in nearly the same footprint as the gas tube. A solid steel op rod, propelled by the gas from the barrel travels back a short distance, and strikes a solid carrier key, sending the carrier to the rear before the piston self returns(spring loaded piston). What's not to like?

I can understand dislike the way piston systems change handling in aimed rapid fire but for me, it doesn't seem to make a difference in the guns I've shot with gas pistons - AK's, Daewoos and Galils.

But then, maybe I'm just not that fast.

J
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:33:50 PM EST
I'd buy one, even if they are $1000-$1500 apiece.

I'd like the reduced fouling during full auto, the removal of the fear of melting a gas tube, and the rarity of the upper. I have paid more for other M16 uppers just because I thought they were neat. I think the HK M4 upper will be neat.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:43:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 8:45:11 PM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Juggernaut:

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
I want to thank you guys for your mature responses. Unlike some of the other people posting in the forums.



Agreed. Factual reasons for disagreeing, rather than mindless emotional opinionated drivel.

Dave-A wasn't the main objecton to using the piston system weight? I've held the HK m4 and the spring and op rod add a few ounces at best, and fit in nearly the same footprint as the gas tube. A solid steel op rod, propelled by the gas from the barrel travels back a short distance, and strikes a solid carrier key, sending the carrier to the rear before the piston self returns(spring loaded piston). What's not to like?

I can understand dislike the way piston systems change handling in aimed rapid fire but for me, it doesn't seem to make a difference in the guns I've shot with gas pistons - AK's, Daewoos and Galils.

But then, maybe I'm just not that fast.

J




What's not to like is that the harmonics & the general design of a piston system degrade accuracy., for no appriciable reliability gain. The 'difference' is that a stock AR will outshoot your AKs, Galils, Daewoos, and even G36s in single shot aimed fire using identical sighting systems & supports or lack thereof.

Sure, you save money on brake cleaner or powder blast (from not hosing down the bolt parts), but that's about it...

Personally, if I'm gonna get a HK .223 product, it will be a HK5x series (roller lock, not gas piston)...
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 9:14:58 PM EST
I'd think about it.

Just to build ANOTHER AR. Not out of any superiority or deficiency in the design.

I got stripped receivers and they need building! Trying to keep up with one every 18 months or so. Just as a hobby.


Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:23:36 AM EST
Didn't Gene Stoner design the AR18 to address the deficiencies of the AR15? AR15's gas system (that of the Ljungman) isn't used and copied by other weapons like the widely used piston design. That said, I will not buy an HK upper because HK treats civilian buyers like chopped liver.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:27:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Juggernaut:
Yes.

Lots and lots of them in all lengths.

And then I'd buy some for the shop.

I'd rather have the complete gun of course, the little 0/1/30 pictographs on the FA guns are badass.

(Standing fast for incoming BS on how HK is solely overpriced useless Eurotrash jagoffs who hate America and our filthy US dollar.)

J.



+1!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:09:04 AM EST
I would have to shoot one first.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:34:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Nope. Im satisfied with my AR's and their level of reliability in harsh conditions.

Nor do I care for the recoil characteristics of piston driven uppers in rapid fire.

Nor do I care to invest in the German revision of the rifle that has served our nation for 30 years.



I'll stand with Lumpy on this one.

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:02:34 AM EST
In a heartbeat. Just tell me where.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:39:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

....

Nor do I care for the recoil characteristics of piston driven uppers in rapid fire.

....



I haven't fired many pistol rifles.

Can someone describe the difference in recoil characteristics?

TIA,

Corey
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 8:41:36 AM EST
No, my AR runs without hiccup.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:11:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Nope. Im satisfied with my AR's and their level of reliability in harsh conditions.

Nor do I care for the recoil characteristics of piston driven uppers in rapid fire.

Nor do I care to invest in the German revision of the rifle that has served our nation for 30 years.



I too would like to have someone explain the characteristics of a piston driven weapon, since the only one I much experience with is the FAL in short and long lengths, but it seems like apples and oranges to compare the much smaller 5.56 AR to the 7.62 FAL, IMHO. I have no experience with the smaller piston driven weapons, so any info would be greatly appreciated.

Not to take away from what you said Lumpy, but didn't Larry Vickers have a huge part in the development of the HK piston system? That's only what I've read, so his input could have been exaggerated for all I know...however, he's done plenty of service for this country, so I wouldn't call it a completely "German revision", if he did in fact play as large a part in the design/development as has been suggested

I too am satified with the current system, but it's always neat to see, try different things.

Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:28:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 9:29:28 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:40:14 AM EST
I already have three FAL's.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:40:23 AM EST
Thanks for the info Lumpy.

Corey
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:14:07 AM EST
No, after playing around with the second generation XM-8, I am more impressed with that. My ARs all run great the way they are, I do not see the need to change. I also like the consolidation of parts by sticking with one design (for myself).
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 12:59:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By mikepenn33:
If the price was between $600 and $800 .



I expect $1500 or more.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:24:44 PM EST
I'd rather have one of their older .308 guns.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 1:37:56 PM EST
Poll added
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:22:25 AM EST
Having shot it and similar variations back to back with the direct impingement system, there is not a dramatic amount of difference. The shorter barrel version of the gas piston system has significantly less muzzle rise in full-auto, as the barrels get longer the difference is less pronounced.

The biggest difference was the lack of fouling in the bolt and chamber - after over 500 rounds, the gas piston system was cleaner than the AR which at that point had fired 30.
HFG
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:45:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/27/2004 5:46:12 AM EST by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Having shot it and similar variations back to back with the direct impingement system, there is not a dramatic amount of difference. The shorter barrel version of the gas piston system has significantly less muzzle rise in full-auto, as the barrels get longer the difference is less pronounced.

The biggest difference was the lack of fouling in the bolt and chamber - after over 500 rounds, the gas piston system was cleaner than the AR which at that point had fired 30.
HFG



Shoot a full course of fire (200/300/600) with each gun, and you WILL see a difference.

The HKM4 is subject to the same 'issues' as the M14 when it comes to accuracy (eg it's going to be accurate, but not AR-system accurate. They have very similar gas systems...
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 5:58:31 AM EST
Dave_A, sorry to disappoint you but there was no difference in accuracy in semi-auto fire between all systems. In full-auto with the short barrel weapons (10.5 inch) gas-piston, more rounds were on target at all ranges and group sizes were smaller. The system we were evaluating was not like the M14 system, it uses a pusher rod which reciprocates much faster; once again, I have to say that it was very difficult to tell them apart without looking under the handguards.
HFG
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 11:28:53 AM EST
HK: Hey U.S. military,
you need to ditch that POS M4, and go with our XM8. Blows the Colt out of the water!


U.S. Military: Umm well we will see. The M4 is a great system.


HK: No were telling ya, this XM8 can shoot the same ammo as the M4, but it will do more damage and
look better at the same time.


U.S. Military: That's ok we like the M4.


HK: Well in that case, we make the best M4 type uper you can get, you will love this, so much better than the XM8. Hands down the best upper on the planet.
Trust us! We have your best intrests at heart.


U.S. Military:



I would never buy one of these.

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 2:02:27 PM EST
0[21.quote]Originally Posted By HipFiredGun:
Dave_A, sorry to disappoint you but there was no difference in accuracy in semi-auto fire between all systems. In full-auto with the short barrel weapons (10.5 inch) gas-piston, more rounds were on target at all ranges and group sizes were smaller. The system we were evaluating was not like the M14 system, it uses a pusher rod which reciprocates much faster; once again, I have to say that it was very difficult to tell them apart without looking under the handguards.
HFG

Right- it's not a large heavy piston that reciprocates the full length of the gun's cycle like the AK/M14, throwing of the balance on the gun while firing, the system is a spring loaded piston, the diameter of the AR15 gastube, (and only barely heavier for being solid instead of hollow) that travels straight back against spring tension, pushes the solid carrier key back, and then returns straight forward after approximately 3-4" of travel. The the total mass moved is weighed in mere ounces, and travels only a few inches.

Can't speak to accuracy as I did not shoot it, but I wager that the extra weight isn't appreciably more than is added with the side cocking reciprocating changing handle systems. I have yet to see people claim that it makes the gun side heavy or the additional mass slinging back and forth in rapid fire makes the gun uncontrollable- probably for the same reason, it's only an additional ounce or two of weight.

J.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 4:56:30 AM EST
No. My ARs durability and reliability already exceeds my needs.

HK is not pleasant to deal with from a customer service prospective. Much like Colt and Browning in that their stuff rarely breaks; but they are a pain in the ass to deal with when it does.

Value-wise, I'd rather spend the extra money that would go into an HK upper on an Aimpoint or something else that produces immediate performance results for me rather than spend it on an upper that's main performance advantage for me is that is easier to clean after X thousand rounds downrange.
Link Posted: 8/28/2004 10:37:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Nope. Im satisfied with my AR's and their level of reliability in harsh conditions.

Nor do I care for the recoil characteristics of piston driven uppers in rapid fire.

Nor do I care to invest in the German revision of the rifle that has served our nation for 30 years.



Could you be just a little more opinionated in your comments?
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 12:28:30 AM EST
I am fairly new to the world of the wonderful AR-15... I have heard talk of the HK design featuring a piston operated bolt systen similar to the MP5 and others, but I have not seen one yet, or really read about thier operation with the AR lowers.

Can anyone provide a link, or inbed a picture or two?

Thanks,
JMS
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 9:51:21 AM EST
Thanks Lumpy.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 12:47:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Nope. Im satisfied with my AR's and their level of reliability in harsh conditions.
Nor do I care for the recoil characteristics of piston driven uppers in rapid fire.

Nor do I care to invest in the German revision of the rifle that has served our nation for 30 years.



Lumpy said it all.
Link Posted: 8/29/2004 1:39:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By JMShipp:
I am fairly new to the world of the wonderful AR-15... I have heard talk of the HK design featuring a piston operated bolt systen similar to the MP5 and others, but I have not seen one yet, or really read about thier operation with the AR lowers.

Can anyone provide a link, or inbed a picture or two?

Thanks,
JMS



The MP5 does not use a piston driven system.
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