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Posted: 3/19/2015 9:37:55 AM EDT
I am converting my precision rifle to a semi-precision/3 gun rig. I am currently running an SSA-E but looking for something a little faster. However I'm hoping to still good for precision shooting, although not necessarily as good as the SSA-E.

I have shot the S3G and to be honest, for precision I just don't like it. I prefer a 2-stage trigger for precision shooting and I just wasn't thrilled with the S3G. I'm still considering it however because I love my other Geissele triggers and am a fan of the company itself.

I have shot the AR-Gold trigger and the design seems perfect for me, however it needs a bit of tinkering to be perfect. The first stage pull is a little too light for me, and I would prefer the travel to be a little longer. The break, overtravel, and reset are perfect. I wasn't a fan of the trigger shoe itself as I thought it was too thin, but that's something I could get over.

The Wilson combat TTU-3G is another option. I have not shot one of these but hear great things compared to the S3G. I'm wondering how long and heavy the first stage pull is, as well as how short the reset is. Is there any first stage after resetting like the SSA-E? Or if you slowly reset, does it go directly to the second stage like the AR-gold? My guess would be the latter being a 3G trigger, but I don't know.

If there are any other suggestions I would be interested. I would prefer a non-adjustable trigger, as there are fewer things to break or come loose. However a trigger that is adjusted by replacing springs is probably fine.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 12:25:56 PM EDT
[#1]
I've run the SD3G and AR Gold in my main 3gun rifle.









The SD3G is great for short-range bay stages, basically hosing and out to 200yds (for me).  When going longer ranges, like 300yds+, I didn't like that the rolling break was somewhat unpredictable.  Mr. Geissele even talks about this in his trigger selection YT video in that you have to work harder for precision shots with the SD3G and S3G.  The reset is very positive on this trigger, and I could run it fast.  But it was lacking for longer-range targets for me...........






I switched to the AR Gold (actually the Larue Black Gold that I got from a friend), which is excellent.  Quick prep through the 1st stage, then a predictable, defined, light, crisp break when I think about sending the shot.  Long-range targets were much easier to pick up on 1st shots after switching to the Gold.  As you mention, not a big fan of the skinny bow, but I don't notice that in matches.  






I prefer the flat bow of the SD3G........






I haven't tried the TTU-3G.






About a month ago, I happened across the ELF 3gun trigger.  There is NO takeup/movement at all....you press on that trigger and it breaks very sudden/crisp.  (self-edit:  There is 0.0235" (0.6mm) of pretravel.....it was really hard to detect unless you are looking for it.)  There is very little overtravel, if any......can't recall at the moment.  The reset is longer than the AR Gold and VERY positive/tactile.....one could almost describe it as a "clunk" out to reset....and then it is right there at the break point again.  You think about sending the shot, and the trigger breaks.  It is adjustable from 2.5-4lbs if I recall correctly, but adjusting the trigger pull weight seems to also affect the disconnector/reset smoothness some.  I've only had this trigger out to the range one time.........could run it fast, and I also ran it some on 250-500yd steel.....with the break being basically immediate, it was easy enough to send shots when I wanted to, unlike the SD3G.  The flat trigger bow is nice.  Something about the reset isn't sitting right with me, but perhaps tweaking the trigger pull weight and finding a sweet spot for smooth reset instead of the "clunk" feel will address that.  I don't have a trigger gauge, so it is guessing game.....






Recently, I won a Rise Armament off a prize table (thanks Rise!) and just got it in last night.  Haven't gotten to the range with it yet, just dry-fire.  The reset is super-short, seems to be the same length as the AR Gold (~0.030-0.035", whereas the ELF and SD3G are more like 0.052"), but it is a little more positive and tactile than the Gold.  (Not as positive/tactile as the SD3G or ELF, not that it is a bad thing.)  The curve and rounded edges of the Rise are more comfortable than the Gold upon first impression.  I need to play with it some more and doing this from memory from last night, but I felt very slight or no take-up on the trigger, but a crisp, defined break.  I can't recall any overtravel but again, going off of memory so I could be mistaken.  I'm anxious to get this one out to the range.








I haven't tried a Hiperfire in well over a year and don't recall fine details of it, but I seem to recall the reset being more along the lines of the ELF or SD3G in terms of length and being positive/tactile.  Seem to recall there being a slight takeup before the break also, but not as long as SD3G.








For reference, I also run a Geissele SDC in my SBR at short-range 3gun bay matches.






So far, the AR Gold is still in my competition gun and the "bar" for me, but the Rise might be a challenger to it.




 


 
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 12:59:10 PM EDT
[#2]
Thanks for that, excellent post. You bring up a good point about the AR gold. The reset is short like I like it, however it is not very tactile. Sometimes I wasn't sure it had reset at all. I'll look up more info on the Rise trigger, that has me intrigued.

The perfect trigger for me would actually be Geissele's 3-position trigger, no telling if/when that is released.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 1:21:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Here's some info you may find helpful.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 1:33:00 PM EDT
[#4]
I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.
They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 2:33:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.
They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.
View Quote


Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 2:40:42 PM EDT
[#6]
The 1st stage of the ELF is the pull weight you set.  There is no movement.....you apply the pull weight and it'll break.  No takeup.
 



self-edit:  After carefully playing with the ELF and measuring, there is 0.6mm of pre-travel until the break......it is really hard to notice unless you are looking for it.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 2:47:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Here's some info you may find helpful.
View Quote


I remember reading that and it brings a good point. I recall the AR gold trigger I shot also had some side to side play. Something that would drive my OCD ass crazy.
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 11:02:57 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.
They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.


Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.


The Wilson TTU is offered in both a Single Stage & a Two Stage.

In addition it has a secondary sear which will catch the hammer in the event of a dropped weapon.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:52:48 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The Wilson TTU is offered in both a Single Stage & a Two Stage.

In addition it has a secondary sear which will catch the hammer in the event of a dropped weapon.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.
They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.


Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.


The Wilson TTU is offered in both a Single Stage & a Two Stage.

In addition it has a secondary sear which will catch the hammer in the event of a dropped weapon.


I was referring to the TTU-3G specifically. It's listed as a two stage on the site and some people here say it's a two stage. Others say its a single stage.

Screw it, I'll buy them all (hopefully off the EE) and keep the one I like most.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 3:15:40 PM EDT
[#10]


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I was referring to the TTU-3G specifically. It's listed as a two stage on the site and some people here say it's a two stage. Others say its a single stage.





Screw it, I'll buy them all (hopefully off the EE) and keep the one I like most.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





Quoted:




Quoted:




Quoted:


I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.


They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.






Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.






The Wilson TTU is offered in both a Single Stage & a Two Stage.





In addition it has a secondary sear which will catch the hammer in the event of a dropped weapon.






I was referring to the TTU-3G specifically. It's listed as a two stage on the site and some people here say it's a two stage. Others say its a single stage.





Screw it, I'll buy them all (hopefully off the EE) and keep the one I like most.
LOL, that's basically the route I've recently been following.......
AR Gold


ELF 3gun


Rise Armament


SD3G (in the past)


Possibly Hiperfire TH24 in April.......

CMC....not going to buy one likely, but interested in their newish 2stage offering and hopefully try one or pick one up from a prize table.....







But by talking to friends and research online, it looks like the AR Gold and the Rise Armament are the most likely to end up as *my* winners.....with the ELF possibly sneaking in 3rd.....


 
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 3:44:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I was referring to the TTU-3G specifically. It's listed as a two stage on the site and some people here say it's a two stage. Others say its a single stage.

Screw it, I'll buy them all (hopefully off the EE) and keep the one I like most.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have the AR Gold, ELF, Wilson and CMC.
They are listed in my order of preference. The first 2 are a step above.


Could you please describe the Wilson and ELF triggers a little more? I understand the first stage on the Wilson is very short? How heavy is the first stage? Same questions apply with the ELF.


The Wilson TTU is offered in both a Single Stage & a Two Stage.

In addition it has a secondary sear which will catch the hammer in the event of a dropped weapon.


I was referring to the TTU-3G specifically. It's listed as a two stage on the site and some people here say it's a two stage. Others say its a single stage.

Screw it, I'll buy them all (hopefully off the EE) and keep the one I like most.


I think I talked about my TTU-M2 in your other thread.  I think the reason some people believe a Wilson two stage is a single stage is because the first stage is extremely short.  It is not well-defined in the sense that you can't clearly feel the wall right before the second stage break unless you are squeezing very slowly and deliberately.  In normal shooting, I am usually surprised when the trigger breaks.  It's hard to stage the trigger for the break because the first stage is so short and the break is so light.  It's almost like a single stage trigger with a little bit of takeup and no creep.
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 7:32:04 PM EDT
[#12]
I agree how the posters above have described the Wilson.
If you end up with play in the AR Gold install a shim in between the housing and receiver on each side.
Lots of folks use a piece of soda can. Some receivers don't require any shims, mine didn't.

The Elf is a fine trigger but I prefer the feel of the gold a little more, maybe because it's almost exactly like my 1911 pistol.

I prefer drop ins so I had no interest in the Geissele's.
Link Posted: 3/24/2015 9:08:56 PM EDT
[#13]
After playing with the Rise a little more in dry-fire (haven't gotten the chance to live fire it yet), think of it as very similar to being a single stage AR Gold, i.e. take the super-light 1st stage away from the AR Gold, and you have a slightly higher pull at the crisp break.  The reset length on both of them is pretty darn close, except the Rise is more tactile/positive reset.



I like it better than the ELF.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 6:42:31 PM EDT
[#14]
So I got the AR gold in today and...it doesn't work. I installed it multiple time with 3 different safeties. It works just fine without a safety installed. The DPMS stock safety seemed to work ok, except it increased the second stage creep considerably. A Colt soccom ambi safety worked fine as long as I never take it off fire. Putting it on safe required an incredible amount of force and then turning it back to fire would turn it into a single stage. A BADASS safety did not work at all. On fire, I could get the hammer to release only 1 in 3 trigger pulls and even then only when I jerked the trigger with a large amount of force. All three safeties required a significant amount of force to put on safe, although especially so with the colt.

I've gone through the assembly video and instructions and it doesn't look like I did anything wrong. I don't see how it's even possible to install it wrong.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 6:44:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I just bought a Wilson Combat TR-TTU-M2
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Tactical-Trigger-Unit-Two-Stage-Match-Semi-Auto/productinfo/TR-TTU-M2/

So far the trigger is perfect.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 6:51:39 PM EDT
[#16]
Lenny, sounds like the tail is interfering with the safety, which means something is up with hole locations on your lower. ATC also states that if you are encountering drag when trying to switch to safe that some material can be taken off the tail.
Sorry, on the road, so couldn't read/answer in more detail.


 



What lower are you using?  Look for wear mark on top of the tail.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 7:49:17 PM EDT
[#17]
It's an aero ambi lower. I think you're right on the holes. It actually works somewhat if I don't bother putting in the front pin.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 8:09:11 PM EDT
[#18]
The wilson combat 3 gun TTU is a single stage trigger.  It has a very light, short pull and a quick, positive reset.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 9:50:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Not sure which Wilson trigger you guys are talking about, but here's Wilson's chart.  Lenny, sorry to hear about your trigger.

Link Posted: 3/31/2015 7:49:08 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Lenny, sounds like the tail is interfering with the safety, which means something is up with hole locations on your lower. ATC also states that if you are encountering drag when trying to switch to safe that some material can be taken off the tail. Sorry, on the road, so couldn't read/answer in more detail.
 

What lower are you using?  Look for wear mark on top of the tail.
View Quote


+1, safety/trigger tail are interfering with each other. Materials off the safety is a cheap fix.

JP used to recommend taking some materials off the tail of trigger if it drags on the safety.  JP eventually came out with an adjustable safety that eliminated the problem:

http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/safety-parts/safeties/ar-15-adjustable-reversible-ambidextrous-safety-selector-prod26528.aspx
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 9:56:40 AM EDT
[#21]
ATC has not responded to my emails, nor answered calls. I suppose it's early in the day. I wanted to check with them before I go filing on the trigger in case they won't take it back. This is frustrating because I doubt I'll be able to get a replacement in time for a match this weekend.
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 10:15:47 AM EDT
[#22]
Do you have an old stock selector lying around that you aren't using?  File material off of that instead.
 
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 10:25:27 AM EDT
[#23]
I do, but it won't be easy. Its not just the flat portion of the selector that's the issue. In fact for the colt, the flat portion is fine. But rather the problem is the radius of the round section. That is why it is so difficult to put into safe. Removing material from the tail of the trigger would do the trick but I don't want to void my warranty.
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 10:32:09 AM EDT
[#24]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I do, but it won't be easy. Its not just the flat portion of the selector that's the issue. In fact for the colt, the flat portion is fine. But rather the problem is the radius of the round section. That is why it is so difficult to put into safe. Removing material from the tail of the trigger would do the trick but I don't want to void my warranty.
View Quote




 
Totally understand you.  Hopefully they get back to you quickly.
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 12:21:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 1:24:10 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:


Can you post a pic of the trigger ?
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Quoted:
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So I got the AR gold in today and...it doesn't work. I installed it multiple time with 3 different safeties. It works just fine without a safety installed. The DPMS stock safety seemed to work ok, except it increased the second stage creep considerably. A Colt soccom ambi safety worked fine as long as I never take it off fire. Putting it on safe required an incredible amount of force and then turning it back to fire would turn it into a single stage. A BADASS safety did not work at all. On fire, I could get the hammer to release only 1 in 3 trigger pulls and even then only when I jerked the trigger with a large amount of force. All three safeties required a significant amount of force to put on safe, although especially so with the colt.

I've gone through the assembly video and instructions and it doesn't look like I did anything wrong. I don't see how it's even possible to install it wrong.


Can you post a pic of the trigger ?




They got back to me and said it would be ok for me to file the tail. I'm going to start doing it slowly. Unless you had another suggestion? I had tried the black gold trigger on a tOBR and liked how it was a nice balance between precision shooting and speed.
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 2:55:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Ron from Pact gave me a call and was able to talk me through fixing the issue. He was able to state why each of the safeties were causing their respective issues, and I was able to confirm by taking measurements of the safeties.

In any case, I ended up filing the tail of the trigger and it corrected the issues. It now works with the BADASS safety. Now if I can only find my damn safety detent...
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 6:04:43 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Ron from Pact gave me a call and was able to talk me through fixing the issue. He was able to state why each of the safeties were causing their respective issues, and I was able to confirm by taking measurements of the safeties.
In any case, I ended up filing the tail of the trigger and it corrected the issues. It now works with the BADASS safety. Now if I can only find my damn safety detent...
View Quote

Glad you got it working.

1. While it's fresh in your mind what is the procedure to determine how much to file off the tail and not go to far?

2. Is the force required to operate the safety the same as a standard AR or still more?

3. Did they state a better way to prevent the assy from being loose in the lower besides making some sort of shim to put on each side?

I didn't have to make any mods or fitting on mine for the lower it's in now but I might switch it to a different one in the future. If filing is done
to the tail instead of the safety and the trigger is switched to a different lower and the fit turns out to be too loose it would be hard to add the filed metal back.
Link Posted: 3/31/2015 9:05:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Glad you got it working.

1. While it's fresh in your mind what is the procedure to determine how much to file off the tail and not go to far?

2. Is the force required to operate the safety the same as a standard AR or still more?

3. Did they state a better way to prevent the assy from being loose in the lower besides making some sort of shim to put on each side?

I didn't have to make any mods or fitting on mine for the lower it's in now but I might switch it to a different one in the future. If filing is done
to the tail instead of the safety and the trigger is switched to a different lower and the fit turns out to be too loose it would be hard to add the filed metal back.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ron from Pact gave me a call and was able to talk me through fixing the issue. He was able to state why each of the safeties were causing their respective issues, and I was able to confirm by taking measurements of the safeties.
In any case, I ended up filing the tail of the trigger and it corrected the issues. It now works with the BADASS safety. Now if I can only find my damn safety detent...

Glad you got it working.

1. While it's fresh in your mind what is the procedure to determine how much to file off the tail and not go to far?

2. Is the force required to operate the safety the same as a standard AR or still more?

3. Did they state a better way to prevent the assy from being loose in the lower besides making some sort of shim to put on each side?

I didn't have to make any mods or fitting on mine for the lower it's in now but I might switch it to a different one in the future. If filing is done
to the tail instead of the safety and the trigger is switched to a different lower and the fit turns out to be too loose it would be hard to add the filed metal back.


1. All I did was file, then install, and then file. I used diamond knife sharpening stones which were much finer than an actual file. I did this about 5 times.
2. It's about the same. I notice it no longer disconnects the sear. However the rep on the phone said as long as the safety prevents fire, then I'm ok. If it's on safe and I release the sear by hand, it does not drop the hammer.
3. I didn't ask, mine was pretty tight.

I thinking modifying the safety is a better way to do it, however much more difficult for me. All I had to do was to put the trigger in a vice and file at the tail. It would have been a lot more difficult to file the safety flat evenly.
Link Posted: 4/9/2015 5:40:38 PM EDT
[#30]
For those looking into triggers, this may be of interest.  
Link Posted: 4/9/2015 7:06:43 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 4/9/2015 7:44:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
For those looking into triggers, this may be of interest.  
View Quote


Did you make that? Excellent video. Going through the numbers now.

As far as my AR gold goes, I've got it running 100% after 3 range trips. For whatever reason the second stage on it is not as crisp as a friend's Larue black gold. I didn't touch the sear surfaces so I'm not sure why but there is a little creep there.
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 12:28:41 PM EDT
[#33]
Yeah, I put the video together, thanks.




For the sear engagement, you can decrease it using the bottom set screw on the back of the trigger housing.  The top set screw is for overtravel length.  Did you happen to lube the surfaces or anything?  


They both supposedly leave ATC set at 3.5lbs according to ATC, but maybe the AR Gold is set a little lighter so you are feeling the 2nd stage movement more easily?


 
Link Posted: 4/10/2015 12:32:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Yeah, I put the video together, thanks.

For the sear engagement, you can decrease it using the bottom set screw on the back of the trigger housing.  The top set screw is for overtravel length.  Did you happen to lube the surfaces or anything?  
They both supposedly leave ATC set at 3.5lbs according to ATC, but maybe the AR Gold is set a little lighter so you are feeling the 2nd stage movement more easily?
 
View Quote


I did lube the surfaces, but I didn't touch the screws. It didn't say anything about adjusting it in the instructions so I hadn't touched it. Thanks for the info.
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