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Posted: 8/20/2004 5:44:51 AM EST
I realize this is more or less an academic point, as the ban is expiring soon and the any AR pistol is not really that usefull. If I read the AW Ban correctly, there is no restriction on flash suppressors on pistols, just threaded barrels, so an AR pistol could have a flash suppressor if it stayed under 50 OZ and used some method other than threading to attach the flash suppressor. What do you guys think?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 5:52:21 AM EST
I thought the legal definition of pistol means the magazine is inserted through the pistol grip?
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:05:42 AM EST

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:
I thought the legal definition of pistol means the magazine is inserted through the pistol grip?

Then you were wrong. Using your definition, a revolver isn't a pistol since there's no magazine in the grip, while an uzi with a 16" barrel and full stock would be pistol since the magazine goes through the handgrip.

The legal definition of a pistol is:



Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a
projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and
having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently
aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped
by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the
bore(s).


Nothing in there about magazines at all.

You may have been thinking of the legal definitio of a "semi automatic assault weapon", which includes a pistol with a magazine that doesn't go through the grip as an evil feature:

(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -

(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded ; and
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and


Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:12:16 AM EST
illegal till after the ban
Link Posted: 8/20/2004 6:45:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
illegal till after the ban



I don't follow. Our hypothetical AR pistol's only evil feature would be the magazine in a location other than the pistol grip, like any other AR pistol.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:37:24 AM EST
You are right. It would be legal on a pistol as long as it met the pistol criteria which has a weight limit.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:25:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:26:33 AM EST by RenegadeX]

Originally Posted By Kreutzberg:

Originally Posted By avengeusa:
illegal till after the ban



I don't follow. Our hypothetical AR pistol's only evil feature would be the magazine in a location other than the pistol grip, like any other AR pistol.



There is a difference between the legal definition of a pistol, and the legal definition of a semi-automatic assault weapon that is also a pistol.

AWB/pistols: You only get one evil feature, they used theirs to put the magazine well outside of the grip.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:31:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
AWB/pistols: You only get one evil feature, they used theirs to put the magazine well outside of the grip.



For AW Pistols, the ban isn't "flashhider or threads" the ban is "threads".
The Carbon's used to use a ball-detent muzzle brake, so a flashhider could be attached without threads.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 10:49:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 10:52:58 AM EST by knightone]
Why does Bushmaster not sell M16 carriers to people without proof that they own an M16? I think it is just to cover their butts and stay on the safe side. They probably know it is technically legal, but isn't worht the scrutiny and hassle it might put them through.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 12:32:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2004 12:33:42 PM EST by Big-Bore]
Because by having any M16 parts, such as the carrier, selector, trigger, hammer, or disconnecter can put you in violation of the law even if the rifle does not fire FA. You can check out this link that is here on AR15.com or you can read the law for yourself on ATF's pages. A lot of people think they know the law and that a FA carrier is legal, but that is not what the law says and all one has to do to prove it is read the law. It is very clear and beyond argument.

ATF General Information, section 3:
"3. IMPORTANT INFORMATION CONCERNING
AR-15 TYPE RIFLES
ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those
manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been
assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machine guns.
The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt
carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically
merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many
of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above also will shoot
automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.
Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than 1 shot, without manual
reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machine gun as defined in
26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the
definition of a machine gun also includes any combination of parts from which
a machine gun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the
control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than 1 shot
by a single function of the trigger is a machine gun under the NFA. Any
machine gun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered
machine gun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.
Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may
fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more
than 1 shot with a single pull of the trigger.
In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers,
disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of
AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to
AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.
Any AR-15 type rifles which have been
assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and
replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially.
The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.
It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be
attempted by fully qualified personnel only.
Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16
parts, please contact your nearest ATF office. Our telephone numbers are
listed in the "United States Government" section of your telephone directory
under the "United States Treasury Department."
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 3:23:09 PM EST
You could put one on as long as there are no threads or you perm. attach it BUT you would still have to meet the 50 oz. limit which would be hard to do.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 12:43:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Because by having any M16 parts, such as the carrier, selector, trigger, hammer, or disconnecter can put you in violation of the law even if the rifle does not fire FA. You can check out this link that is here on AR15.com or you can read the law for yourself on ATF's pages. A lot of people think they know the law and that a FA carrier is legal, but that is not what the law says and all one has to do to prove it is read the law. It is very clear and beyond argument.



Well, that's been disputed to death here and the majority vote says that an M16 carrier is legal. However, that is not the point of my original post. Bushmaster doesn't want to get involved in any complicated legal arguments that they don't deem worth the risk.
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