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Posted: 1/6/2005 6:49:41 PM EDT
Hey All,
Almost every M4 type I see has the forward pistol grip close to the receiver, while it would seem to me, (and empirical evidence tells me) that the farther out on the barrel the better control over shot recovery.. (leverage vs. fulcrum et al)...
Now, perhaps I am missing a point here in terms of arm fatigue, weapon balance etc.,
...I can understand (somewhat) if it is to make room for a light, etc, but other than that, WHY? I anticipate your response.
Thanks.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 6:53:30 PM EDT
Simple physics. The closer the handle is to your body, the easier the rifle is to manuever.
i.e.- Hold a gallon of milk against your body. Then move it to arms length. Which feels heavier?
The further you place your hand out the more torque it exerts on your body.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 6:55:16 PM EDT
Its more comfortable, less fatigue, makes for a more narrow profile, and most importantly you can manuever the muzzle with much less movement.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 7:01:56 PM EDT
j-fonz,
I disagree with your take on the physics, at least regarding managing recoil...
I.e - hold a board by one end while I push up on the other,,, You'd do better to hold nearer my end.
I can , however, understand the argument from the perspective of maneuvering, keeping ones limbs close to ones' mass.
Straight recoil control, Mmmm ... I am not quite convinced... even maneuvering, I would suggest that ones arm further extended provides a narrower profile, (well, front view, anyhow..)
Thanks.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 7:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dirtfarmer:
Hey All,
Almost every M4 type I see has the forward pistol grip close to the receiver, while it would seem to me, (and empirical evidence tells me) that the farther out on the barrel the better control over shot recovery.. (leverage vs. fulcrum et al)...
Now, perhaps I am missing a point here in terms of arm fatigue, weapon balance etc.,
...I can understand (somewhat) if it is to make room for a light, etc, but other than that, WHY? I anticipate your response.


What you say is true on paper, but when you actually try it you'll find that the most comfortable place is just a little bit forward of the center of gravity. On an M4 that is just in front of the mag well. On a longer, heavier barrel it will be a few inches farther forward but it is never to far out there. Besides, if it is too far forward then your support arm will be too straight to be comfortable.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 7:06:35 PM EDT
I wouldn't think that recoil management would be an issue in 5.56. The argument I was trying to point out is that the Armed Forces spend more time moving and at the ready than actually firing. YMMV
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 8:22:49 PM EDT
Dirtfarmer, hey, good to see you over here. But, I have the opposite question, why mount the grip farther forward, and then hold onto the front of the mag well? Would it not be easier to simply not mount the grip, or to mount it up closer to the receiver?





Link Posted: 1/6/2005 8:31:48 PM EDT
I have no idea why. All I can tell you is find a spot you like and put it there. I have had mine all up and down the rail and I really prefer it as close as I can get it to the mag well. I would just use the mag well but it gets f'ing hot.

Link Posted: 1/6/2005 8:40:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dirtfarmer:
I can , however, understand the argument from the perspective of maneuvering, keeping ones limbs close to ones' mass.


Elbows in tight, no chicken wings!

Straight recoil control, Mmmm ... I am not quite convinced... even maneuvering, I would suggest that ones arm further extended provides a narrower profile, (well, front view, anyhow..)
Thanks.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer


Not "narrow profile", square off forward, lean into your recoil.
Watch the news and see how the entry teams, military and leo, move.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 8:53:55 PM EDT
As with any and all things I think it has more to do with feel. The closer your arms are to the body the steadier you can hold the rifle.
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 9:05:41 PM EDT
Better retention and balance,less fatigue
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 10:27:26 PM EDT
Faster on target, making recoil control less of an issue, because you'll hit it with the first shot :-)
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:20:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/6/2005 11:44:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Where it feels most natural at with my shooting style, and it where it works best with my rail mounted flashlights.



I agree 100%. It's all about function when it comes to the accesories on my AR15. I mounted my vert grip where it felt most comfortable for me, which ended up a notch past center and more towards the front of the rifle. I decided on this placement after trying the closer grips, as well as a little further foward. I found the more forward placement effected muzzle rise better than further back. It make not look like everyone else's vertical grip, but it fits me good.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 4:38:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dirtfarmer:
j-fonz,
I disagree with your take on the physics, at least regarding managing recoil...
I.e - hold a board by one end while I push up on the other,,, You'd do better to hold nearer my end.
I can , however, understand the argument from the perspective of maneuvering, keeping ones limbs close to ones' mass.
Straight recoil control, Mmmm ... I am not quite convinced... even maneuvering, I would suggest that ones arm further extended provides a narrower profile, (well, front view, anyhow..)
Thanks.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer





well if you think about it having the grip closer to the reciever helps balance the weight a lil better since you have weight in the center and then if you have a weapon light out front it would balance better to have the grip in the middle of the two.


if you mounted the grip further forward then all the weight would be in the center, so to speak, of your weapon which i fleel would throw off the balance.


and comparing a board to a rifle equipped with all the goodies if not accurate. if you mounted gear to your board in places similar to the rifle then do you still think that the arm extended is going to be able to support it as long as if you were tucked?

just what i think about it. then again everyone is different and prefer different things. all of which makes this so intresting
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 4:54:06 AM EDT
I'd have to agree w/Lon_Moer no chicken wings, imagine standing in a doorway the door is closed and locked and your butt up against it, and you are taking incoming rounds and you have to step out take a shot step back in, which profile, hence VG location, is more conducive to gaining qwik target aquisition? Your going to want everything tight compact close to the body no elbows flailing no legs hanging out there to stop some errant round that was destined to bang brick in the first place, buttstock collapsed VG down low arms to the side legs together about as close to disappearing as the human body can manifest. I think with the VG close to the mag-well it allows a soldier the ability to raise their arms in one solid motion and almost have their sight picture established just by raising the weapon. Especially with a dot aiming system when you shoulder the weapon the dot is all your looking for anyway and keeping the dot close to the head and VG nearer the mag-well allows it to be brought into battery without having to try to find the target like when using irons alone. IMHO
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:22:55 AM EDT
I have my VG's in close on my Car's. Fatigue is a big part, &
then maneuverability. It just feels best there...

I have an HK-94 that came with the barrel shroud & VG. This
VG was forward of the front sight ass'y. It felt terrible that far out.
I took it off & never put it back.

Johnny C!
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:51:37 AM EDT
Comfort , stability and maneuverability. Placing the grip closer to the receiver gives the weight of the rifle a shorter lever to work with, thereby reducing fatigue. I find that by bringing the VG back farther I can also rest my arms on my armor or body when shooting off hand for greater stability and less fatigue. With the VG moved back I can more easily square up to the threat and present my trauma plate rather than my unarmored armpit. Also, I can still put most of the forearm on a rest (table, sandbag, etc.) if the VG is close to the receiver and the flashlight is on the side. I place my flashlight according to where I have my grip rather than the other way around.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 5:57:04 AM EDT
I like it close to the mag well to. Just feels right and easier to control.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 7:10:33 AM EDT
Grabbing the mag well gives me the best leverage and stability when holding the rifle. Plus there is less chance of your grip affecting barrel harmonics.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:03:10 PM EDT
Whelp,
I have to say you folks make a pretty good case... Ekie, those pics are farkin hilarious. (Good show!)
On my M4 that grip is pretty much at the end, and my arm is still mighty bent, although definitely not match-palmrest style... now, I don't have super gorilla-arms... (Typical 6'2" ) Hmmm I do appreciate what fonz was saying about the recoil of the 5.56, but was aproaching it from a "every little bit" standpoint, still... less all over arm movement to bring rifle back on track with the closer FS... something to be said there, indeed
Now, that point about rounding corners, etc. , IS also an excellent one..
Why, I believe I may be convinced, I'll give it a whack! Thanks, all.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2005 6:09:50 PM EDT by mongo001]
I used to install a FVG, but it got in the way of me doing this:







so I removed it.
Link Posted: 1/7/2005 6:26:57 PM EDT

He might use the grip as a monopod??? I've seen stranger field expedient devices.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 6:20:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dirtfarmer:
Whelp,
I have to say you folks make a pretty good case... Ekie, those pics are farkin hilarious. (Good show!)
On my M4 that grip is pretty much at the end, and my arm is still mighty bent, although definitely not match-palmrest style... now, I don't have super gorilla-arms... (Typical 6'2" ) Hmmm I do appreciate what fonz was saying about the recoil of the 5.56, but was aproaching it from a "every little bit" standpoint, still... less all over arm movement to bring rifle back on track with the closer FS... something to be said there, indeed
Now, that point about rounding corners, etc. , IS also an excellent one..
Why, I believe I may be convinced, I'll give it a whack! Thanks, all.
Goodwill,
-Dirtfarmer



Great, give it a try, and stop in more often, OK?
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 7:50:36 AM EDT
Ekie I noticed that too! Ya'll come back now ya' heer! Take you shoes off sit a spell... He brought up a interesting thread, which has been debated repeatedly in many different threads.
One thing that was missed is that I believe GI's are issued detachable carry handles and are essentially their irons in the event their Aimpoint quits and I've seen their detachable carry handles mounted underneath out of the way, I've seen a few of them mounted on the left side. And if a soldier chose to mount the A3 carry handle underneath and was also issued a VG he would have no other place to put the VG except way down low in the last remaining cross notches available on a carbine length RAS. But most pictures from the 'Sandbox' are shown with no carry handles at all just the VG way down low so maybe it became habit. But based on conjecture here the low mounting of a VG seems out of the need to keep yer ass from getting shot breeching an entryway and maintaing a low profile.
I am from the old school but when it comes to keeping my ass and my family safe I believe new tactics are the best and most reliable in terms of dealing with the threats of today home invasion, terrorists, or any poor bastard that decides in the middle of the night because of the conversation he had with a monkey a minute go ... he can have anything he wants and he's going to try to take it from me. And when I am on the line I can still hear my daddy ...
"Is that how I taught you to shoot that thing?" LOL , If he were still with us ol' blabbermouth would shutup when he saw my targets.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:04:54 AM EDT
If your stance is correct you CANT use the grip placed forward. If you just grab the magwell you cant use your flash light. Forward mounted vertical grips are for people who use poor technique and are more bladed to the target. If you mount the grip forward of the half way point and shoot in a square CQB stance your left arm will be totally straight.
Link Posted: 1/9/2005 8:07:10 AM EDT
Farther away

Controls recoil better.
Improves control of the front of the weapon.
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