Why 11.5" and 14.5" BBL's?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why 11.5" and 14.5" BBL's?

Posted: 1/11/2005 7:22:00 AM EDT

What's the point of the short barrels when they come with a welded flash suppressor that makes them 16" long? Maybe this is a newbie question, but isn't a 16" barrel a better choice?

Thanks....

Posted: 1/11/2005 7:34:21 AM EDT

[#1]

"Cool Factor" for some people...and others just want to come as close as they can to the real thing without having go the SBR route.

...edited to add, you are correct though. If you have to make the 16" limit, it is more practical to have as much of it as you can rifled.

Posted: 1/11/2005 7:40:56 AM EDT

[#2]

Because I can, and I have a need for them.

Life isnt all about punching paper at 600 yards

Posted: 1/11/2005 7:55:03 AM EDT

[#3]

To me a 16" barrel w/ carbine habdguards look wierd, because the OAL comes to a little over 17". A 14.5" w/ a perm att phantom or vortex comes to 16.1" and looks much better IMO. Some people really don't care, but the way my rifles look, does matter to me.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:01:07 AM EDT

[#4]

Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:02:35 AM EDT

[#5]

+1 for what RolandofGilead said. They just look better.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:09:14 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.

A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex effectively removes all the flash, has enough MV to get decent terminal performance to 100y or so, and is the minimum non NFA barrel length.

A 16" with the A2 FS doesn't remove the flash nearly so well and ends up being 17" or 17.5" if you want to use the Phantom to reduce the flash.

Both are good - some people just want it as short as possible.

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:17:06 AM EDT

[#7]

Does anyone have pics directly comparing a 16" R6920 to a 14.5" R6921 w/ vortex or phantom?

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:18:35 AM EDT

[#8]

I like my 11.5" with 'flash suppressor' (Gemtech M4-02).

It's almost exactly the same length as my 16" with an A2 FH.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:24:56 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.

So you are saying you don't think an AR15/M16 with an 11.5" barrel will kill a man? I would tend to disagree. I know people who have personal experience they have related to me that indicate 10.5" and 11.5" barrels can be quite deadly at close range. In the end, the weapon is only as good as the shooter.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:40:41 AM EDT

[#10]

_DR, I don't think he's saying that at all, but when you have 2 choices, 1. is 14.5" w/vortex-phantom OAL=16" choice number 2. is 11.5 w/5.5"FH = 16", why not have more velocity? Now if you have a SBR or you are truly going to be conducting MOUT then go for a real 11.5", the only other reason is cool factor. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

Posted: 1/11/2005 11:15:39 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.

So you are saying you don't think an AR15/M16 with an 11.5" barrel will kill a man?

Please tell me where I said that or even implied it.

An 11.5" + 5.5 though gives you NO advantage that a 14.5+Phantom gives you (and has WORSE flash supressor); and the 14.5 gives better terminal ballistics to longer ranges.

However - I do like that 11.5 + Supressor setup - but that Bilock is on an SBR (so he does have the advantage of a shorter rifle) - it's not the same as a Bushy 11.5+5.5 permanently fixed faux CAR supressor.

So why do guys buy 11.5+5.5? CDI factor - the XM177 type just look 'Kewl'. There is no 'tactical' advantage and there is no 'target' advantage. There is just 1.6oz of weight savings' going from the 14.5+FS to the 11.5+FS.

Posted: 1/11/2005 11:33:50 AM EDT

[#12]

Personally, I got a 16" plus a flash-hider because I didn't like the idea of permanent. I wanted the ability to easily swap out the flash-hider if I ever desired.

Posted: 1/11/2005 11:52:49 AM EDT

[#13]

145 yd fragmentation from a 14.5" with 77g NATO.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=189353

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:32:54 PM EDT

[#14]

I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a (edit) moot point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:35:04 PM EDT

[#15]

I feel like my soon to be Carbon 15 21S SBR will be fine with heavy gr. bullets on anything within that 'legally justified defense' range.

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:37:39 PM EDT

[#16]

I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:41:05 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?

Good point. I forgot about the guys stuck in those areas or faced with the prospect of moving to those areas.

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:45:10 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs.

I've considered this. However I take my rifles out of state for training and shooting, sometimes with little notice. If they were SBR'ed I have to get permission from the BATF (sumbit a form) every time I wanted to go out of state. Too much of a hassle for a few inches reduced length IMHO.

1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics

There is a heck of difference between the ballistics of an 11.5 and a 14.5" barrel - on the order of a 100% increase in the fragmentation envelope.

Posted: 1/11/2005 12:45:50 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

It isn't legal in my state and I don't want to file a Form 20 every time I take it out of state.

Posted: 1/11/2005 1:00:44 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
There is a heck of difference between the ballistics of an 11.5 and a 14.5" barrel - on the order of a 100% increase in the fragmentation envelope.

But again, the distance at which that difference starts to occur would likely never be considered a legally justified shot taken in defense of your life / others. So you'd pretty much never be able to take advantage of the improved ballistics of the longer barrel.

I guess its safe to assume that many of us (my trunk gun is a Krebs KTR-03V in 7.62X39 with Eotech sighted for 50 yards) prefer to be equipped for those extraordinary circumstances, however rare, under which we *might* legally be justified in employing our tools at longer ranges (Hollywood bank robber scenario).

Posted: 1/11/2005 2:11:54 PM EDT

[#21]

Another +1 for RolandofGilead and Jetlag.

I'm banking that all my guns are ever gonna do is punch paper, and kill the odd piece of old computer equipment and bottles. If I did have to use it for self defense, it would be inside my house, so the fragmentation range isn't a problem.

For the looks, it does suck to have to weld it, but...

M4orgery with a 16" bbl looks

Posted: 1/11/2005 3:03:03 PM EDT

[#22]

It dosent matter the legnth I like the 14.5 for the shortest legnth possible with a phantom.As far as range as they are long enough for normal fighting ranges encountered.combat ranges from 60 years to present indicate that 95% of combat infantry engagements take place at 100 yds and under,the under being 75% taking place well under 50 yds..so 75% of the time a 10.5 or 11.5 is definately relevant.I just dont own one because I cant get SBR licences where I live and having one with a permanent flash hider just defeats the purpose of the 11.5 or 10.5 wich is ultimate compactness.So I utilize the extra legnth that will still keep it over an inch and a half shorter than a 16" by going 14.5/phantom.

Posted: 1/11/2005 4:09:59 PM EDT

[#23]

I would like to know how filing out a form you can download online and fax into the ATF is so much more hassle than making the plans to attend an out of state class, ordering airline tickets and making reservations at a local hotel near the destination...

Posted: 1/11/2005 4:54:58 PM EDT

[#24]

My Bushmaster 11.5" Total safe queen.. Absolute fun!!

Posted: 1/11/2005 5:01:59 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

It isn't legal in my state and I don't want to file a Form 20 every time I take it out of state.

Not even an option here in MI, so I got one of the 11.5"/5.5" combos with a 1/7 barrel so that I could do load development with the 11.5" barrel and 77gr SMK ammo. This data will be handy if:

The legislature in MI ever pulls their collective heads out of their arses and changes the law. - NOT LIKELY

OR

I pull my collective head out of my arse and move out of MI to a more friendly state. - MORE LIKELY

Posted: 1/11/2005 5:29:48 PM EDT

[#26]

I like my Bushy "AK Carbine" because it's lighter and shorter than my full-length HBAR 20-inch A2 but still gives me the option of using either light 50-55g) or heavy (62+) ammo. I figure 14.5 inches with a AK74 brake/flash hider is more useful than 16 inches with the naked, target-style muzzle.

My beloved pre-A1 rifle is even lighter than my little carbine thanks to the old "pencil" profile barrel. But the 1 in 12 twist limits me to the light stuff.

I say ARs are like fish: there are big ones and small ones, light ones and heavy ones, but it's all good!

(On a sidenote, it's a "moot" point, not a mute one. If I had a dime for every time I've heard someone say that.... A mute is someone who can't speak. A moot issue is one that's irrelevant, or not open to debate.)

Good shooting.

Posted: 1/11/2005 8:35:19 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I figure 14.5 inches with a AK74 brake/flash hider is more useful than 16 inches with the naked, target-style muzzle.

Sadly that is not the case (I'm a former M4/AK owner).

The rifle is just over 17" with the brake (same length as a 16" +A2 FS.

The AK brake is LOUD and not needed for a semi auto - it also does not reduce flash. Yes it will redirect most of it out of your sight picture but it does not reduce it. Its a break not a flash supressor.

The 16"+A2 is just as long, has a higher MV, is not as loud, and you can change the muzzle device at will.

Posted: 1/11/2005 9:16:49 PM EDT

[#28]

14.5” + Vortex/Phantom = about 1” shorter (about as short as is legal) + better flash reduction than 16” + A2 FH. Good all-around carbine with premium ammo; still adequate at short range with good mil-spec ammo.

11.5” SBR = even shorter! This is much more limited than the 14.5” (terminal performance, noise, flash), but would be a good specialty weapon for CQB with premium ammo.

11.5” + 5.5” FH = bling bling! This is the only other advantage over the 14.5” that I have found, and it’s extremely specialized:

Quoted:
Not even an option here in MI, so I got one of the 11.5"/5.5" combos with a 1/7 barrel so that I could do load development with the 11.5" barrel and 77gr SMK ammo. This data will be handy if:

The legislature in MI ever pulls their collective heads out of their arses and changes the law. - NOT LIKELY

OR

I pull my collective head out of my arse and move out of MI to a more friendly state. - MORE LIKELY

Posted: 1/11/2005 9:24:18 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?

You won't be able to bring the AR legally into Kali-fornia, unless you registered it before the cut-off date irregardless of barrel length.

Posted: 1/11/2005 10:33:59 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.

A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex effectively removes all the flash, has enough MV to get decent terminal performance to 100y or so, and is the minimum non NFA barrel length.

A 16" with the A2 FS doesn't remove the flash nearly so well and ends up being 17" or 17.5" if you want to use the Phantom to reduce the flash.

Your logic seems flawed. A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong

Posted: 1/11/2005 10:36:05 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/questionwht.gif