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Posted: 1/11/2005 7:22:00 AM EDT
What's the point of the short barrels when they come with a welded flash suppressor that makes them 16" long?  Maybe this is a newbie question, but isn't a 16" barrel a better choice?

Thanks....
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 7:34:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 7:35:32 AM EDT by cms81586]
"Cool Factor" for some people...and others just want to come as close as they can to the real thing without having go the SBR route.


...edited to add, you are correct though.  If you have to make the 16" limit, it is more practical to have as much of it as you can rifled.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 7:40:56 AM EDT
Because I can, and I have a need for them.

Life isnt all about punching paper at 600 yards

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 7:55:03 AM EDT
To me a 16" barrel w/ carbine habdguards look wierd, because the OAL comes to a little over 17". A 14.5" w/ a perm att phantom or vortex comes to 16.1" and looks much better IMO.  Some people really don't care, but the way my rifles look, does matter to me.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:01:07 AM EDT
Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:02:35 AM EDT
+1 for what RolandofGilead said. They just look better.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:09:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.



A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex effectively removes all the flash, has enough MV to get decent terminal performance to 100y or so, and is the minimum non NFA barrel length.

A 16" with the A2 FS doesn't remove the flash nearly so well and ends up being 17" or 17.5" if you want to use the Phantom to reduce the flash.

Both are good - some people just want it as short as possible.

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:17:06 AM EDT
Does anyone have pics directly comparing a 16" R6920 to a 14.5" R6921 w/ vortex or phantom?
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:18:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 8:20:22 AM EDT by fizassist]
I like my 11.5" with 'flash suppressor' (Gemtech M4-02).    It's almost exactly the same length as my 16" with an A2 FH.

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:24:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 8:28:20 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.



So you are saying you don't think an AR15/M16 with an 11.5" barrel will kill a man? I would tend to disagree. I know people who have personal experience they have related to me that indicate 10.5" and 11.5" barrels can be quite deadly at close range.  In the end, the weapon is only as good as the shooter.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:40:41 AM EDT
_DR, I don't think he's saying that at all, but when you have 2 choices, 1. is 14.5" w/vortex-phantom OAL=16" choice number 2. is 11.5 w/5.5"FH = 16", why not have more velocity? Now if you have a SBR or you are truly going to be conducting MOUT then go for a real 11.5", the only other reason is cool factor. (not that there is anything wrong with that)
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:15:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Now the 11.5+5.5" FS is just for 'Kewl' factor - the Chicks Dig It scenario.



So you are saying you don't think an AR15/M16 with an 11.5" barrel will kill a man?




Please tell me where I said that or even implied it.

An 11.5" + 5.5 though gives you NO advantage that a 14.5+Phantom gives you (and has WORSE flash supressor); and the 14.5 gives better terminal ballistics to longer ranges.

However - I do like that 11.5 + Supressor setup - but that Bilock is on an SBR (so he does have the advantage of a shorter rifle) - it's not the same as a Bushy 11.5+5.5 permanently fixed faux CAR supressor.

So why do guys buy 11.5+5.5?  CDI factor - the XM177 type just look 'Kewl'.  There is no 'tactical' advantage and there is no 'target' advantage.  There is just 1.6oz of weight savings' going from the 14.5+FS to the 11.5+FS.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:33:50 AM EDT
Personally, I got a 16" plus a flash-hider because I didn't like the idea of permanent. I wanted the ability to easily swap out the flash-hider if I ever desired.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:52:49 AM EDT
145 yd fragmentation from a 14.5" with 77g NATO.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=189353
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:32:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/12/2005 6:24:29 AM EDT by Accomplice1]
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs.  We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal.  All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a (edit) moot point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:35:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 12:37:15 PM EDT by Accomplice1]
I feel like my soon to be Carbon 15 21S SBR will be fine with heavy gr. bullets on anything within that 'legally justified defense' range.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:37:39 PM EDT

I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.


Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:41:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?



Good point.  I forgot about the guys stuck in those areas or faced with the prospect of moving to those areas.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:45:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accomplice1:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs.


I've considered this.   However I take my rifles out of state for training and shooting, sometimes with little notice.  If they were SBR'ed I have to get permission from the BATF (sumbit a form) every time I wanted to go out of state.  Too much of a hassle for a few inches reduced length IMHO.


1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics

There is a heck of difference between the ballistics of an 11.5 and a 14.5" barrel - on the order of a 100% increase in the fragmentation envelope.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 12:45:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Accomplice1:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs.  We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal.  All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.




It isn't legal in my state and I don't want to file a Form 20 every time I take it out of state.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 1:00:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 1:13:33 PM EDT by Accomplice1]

Originally Posted By Forest:
There is a heck of difference between the ballistics of an 11.5 and a 14.5" barrel - on the order of a 100% increase in the fragmentation envelope.



But again, the distance at which that difference starts to occur would likely never be considered a legally justified shot taken in defense of your life / others.  So you'd pretty much never be able to take advantage of the improved ballistics of the longer barrel.

I guess its safe to assume that many of us (my trunk gun is a Krebs KTR-03V in 7.62X39 with Eotech sighted for 50 yards) prefer to be equipped for those extraordinary circumstances, however rare, under which we *might* legally be justified in employing our tools at longer ranges (Hollywood bank robber scenario).
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 2:11:54 PM EDT
Another +1 for RolandofGilead and Jetlag.

I'm banking that all my guns are ever gonna do is punch paper, and kill the odd piece of old computer equipment and bottles.  If I did have to use it for self defense, it would be inside my house, so the fragmentation range isn't a problem.  

For the looks, it does suck to have to weld it, but...

M4orgery with a 16" bbl looks
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 3:03:03 PM EDT
It dosent matter the legnth I like the 14.5 for the shortest legnth possible with a phantom.As far as range as they are long enough for normal fighting ranges encountered.combat ranges from 60 years to present indicate that 95% of combat infantry engagements take place at 100 yds and under,the under being 75% taking place well under 50 yds..so 75% of the time a 10.5 or 11.5 is definately relevant.I just dont own one because I cant get SBR licences where I live and having one with a  permanent flash hider just defeats the purpose of the 11.5 or 10.5 wich is ultimate compactness.So I utilize the extra legnth that will still keep it over an inch and a half shorter than a 16" by going 14.5/phantom.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 4:09:59 PM EDT
I would like to know how filing out a form you can download online and fax into the ATF is so much more hassle than making the plans to attend an out of state class, ordering airline tickets and making reservations at a local hotel near the destination...

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 4:54:58 PM EDT
My Bushmaster 11.5"    Total safe queen.. Absolute fun!!



Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:01:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 5:02:33 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:

Originally Posted By Accomplice1:
I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs.  We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal.  All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.




It isn't legal in my state and I don't want to file a Form 20 every time I take it out of state.



Not even an option here in MI, so I got one of the 11.5"/5.5" combos with a 1/7 barrel so that I could do load development with the 11.5" barrel and 77gr SMK ammo.  This data will be handy if:

The legislature in MI ever pulls their collective heads out of their arses and changes the law. - NOT LIKELY

OR

I pull my collective head out of my arse and move out of MI to a more friendly state. - MORE LIKELY
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 5:29:48 PM EDT
I like my Bushy "AK Carbine" because it's lighter and shorter than my full-length HBAR 20-inch A2 but still gives me the option of using either light 50-55g) or heavy (62+) ammo.  I figure 14.5 inches with a AK74 brake/flash hider is more useful than 16 inches with the naked, target-style muzzle.

My beloved pre-A1 rifle is even lighter than my little carbine thanks to the old "pencil" profile barrel.  But the 1 in 12 twist limits me to the light stuff.

I say ARs are like fish: there are big ones and small ones, light ones and heavy ones, but it's all good!

(On a sidenote, it's a "moot" point, not a mute one.  If I had a dime for every time I've heard someone say that....  A mute is someone who can't speak.  A moot issue is one that's irrelevant, or not open to debate.)

Good shooting.



Link Posted: 1/11/2005 8:35:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Epeeman:
I figure 14.5 inches with a AK74 brake/flash hider is more useful than 16 inches with the naked, target-style muzzle.


Sadly that is not the case (I'm a former M4/AK owner).

The rifle is just over 17" with the brake (same length as a 16" +A2 FS.

The AK brake is LOUD and not needed for a semi auto - it also does not reduce flash.  Yes it will redirect most of it out of your sight picture but it does not reduce it.  Its a break not a flash supressor.

The 16"+A2 is just as long, has a higher MV, is not as loud, and you can change the muzzle device at will.

Link Posted: 1/11/2005 9:16:49 PM EDT
14.5” + Vortex/Phantom = about 1” shorter (about as short as is legal) + better flash reduction than 16” + A2 FH. Good all-around carbine with premium ammo; still adequate at short range with good mil-spec ammo.

11.5” SBR = even shorter! This is much more limited than the 14.5” (terminal performance, noise, flash), but would be a good specialty weapon for CQB with premium ammo.

11.5” + 5.5” FH = bling bling! This is the only other advantage over the 14.5” that I have found, and it’s extremely specialized:


Originally Posted By mongo001:
Not even an option here in MI, so I got one of the 11.5"/5.5" combos with a 1/7 barrel so that I could do load development with the 11.5" barrel and 77gr SMK ammo.  This data will be handy if:

The legislature in MI ever pulls their collective heads out of their arses and changes the law. - NOT LIKELY

OR

I pull my collective head out of my arse and move out of MI to a more friendly state. - MORE LIKELY


Link Posted: 1/11/2005 9:24:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/11/2005 9:25:12 PM EDT by warlord]

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:

I just don't understand why everybody isn't just going with the 10.5 / 11.5 and registering them as SBRs. We spend so much on our gear the $200 isn't that big of a deal. All the talk about the effective kill range being limited by the short barrels is really is a mute point because 1. so many are using short barrels with fake extensions giving the same limited ballistics and 2. most of us will likely never have to shoot a bad guy and 3. if we did it would be at very short distances because we wouldn't be able to legally justify taking a shot beyond 20-30 feet max.


Because some live in states where they can't, and for others, who move around alot, it is not feasable to re-register a SBR at evry new place. At some point I will live in Cali again, what would happen to my SBR then?


You won't be able to bring the AR legally into Kali-fornia, unless you registered it before the cut-off date irregardless of barrel length.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 10:33:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Jetlag:
Because a 16" barrel with a flash suppressor would be longer. Simple, really.



A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex effectively removes all the flash, has enough MV to get decent terminal performance to 100y or so, and is the minimum non NFA barrel length.

A 16" with the A2 FS doesn't remove the flash nearly so well and ends up being 17" or 17.5" if you want to use the Phantom to reduce the flash.



Your logic seems flawed. A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 10:36:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/questionwht.gif



Yes. The extra 1.5" isn't as effective as a Phantom or Vortex. Not nearly.
Link Posted: 1/11/2005 11:54:44 PM EDT

Why 11.5" and 14.5" BBL's?


Because some of us clear buildings.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 7:02:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
Your logic seems flawed. A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/questionwht.gif



Yes you're wrong.

The Phatom and Vortex flash supressors are SO efficient they will remove the flash.  The A2 FS is not very efficient and you will still get a ball of flame (albeit much smaller than if you had a brake or no muzzle device).

As a part of the Night Fire section of the FIRE Institute courses they always have a 'check the muzzle flash' part of the night.  We try different ammo in each others rifles  to see how the ammo, barrel length, & the muzzle device effect the flash.  A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex is MUCH better at reducing the flash than a 16" with the A2 FS.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 7:37:14 AM EDT
The Marines tested the M4 Carbine in the 1980's and found that the barrel had to extend at least 4.5" beyond the gasport to cycle reliably with the A2 flash hider. The gasport can be opened up, the gastube can be changed, a heavy buffer and extractor spring gaskets and inserts can help to allow short barrels to function better.

The 16" OAL is a BATF regulation that has nothing to do with how a rifle operates. It is a revenue measure to collect $200.00 from anybody who wants to have a shorter barrel, making concealable SBR's more expensive to own. Back in the 1930's, the $200.00 tax stamp was far more than the weapon cost.

Testing has shown that a 16" barrel will give you an extra 15-20 yards of terminal ballistic effects over a 14.5" barrel when shooting 5.56 NATO.

The M4 is designed to use a 14.5" barrel, bayo lug, A2 flash hider and still mount the bayonet. By adding a permenantly attached phantom/vortex or KKF's extra length A2 type flash hider on a 14.5" barrel, you can still use the bayonet and keep your 16" OAL w/bayo lug BATF legal.

The 14.5" with permenant phantom/etc. will be around 1.0" shorter than a 16" w/A2. It boils down to the length of the weapon, the bayonet lug and 15 yards of terminal effects.

The complications include having a permenantly attached muzzle brake makes changing front sights and free flaoting handguards far more expensive than a twist off FH on a 16" barrel.

State laws vary regarding SBR's. Depending of where you live, a 14.5" barrel is a great idea or a royal pain in the ass.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 10:47:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
Your logic seems flawed. A longer 16" barrel would allow the powder to burn more completely therefore having less flash than a shorter 14.5". Am I wrong smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/9/questionwht.gif



Yes you're wrong.

The Phatom and Vortex flash supressors are SO efficient they will remove the flash.  The A2 FS is not very efficient and you will still get a ball of flame (albeit much smaller than if you had a brake or no muzzle device).

As a part of the Night Fire section of the FIRE Institute courses they always have a 'check the muzzle flash' part of the night.  We try different ammo in each others rifles  to see how the ammo, barrel length, & the muzzle device effect the flash.  A 14.5 + Phantom or Vortex is MUCH better at reducing the flash than a 16" with the A2 FS.



I knew I should have said it but I figured you guys could have put the peices together better...

When I was comparing the two barrel lengths and resulting muzzle flash I was using the same A2 flash hider on both barrels. Why the hell would I compare the two barrels with different flash hiders?
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:10:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHA9000:
.... Why the hell would I compare the two barrels with different flash hiders?



Becasue the 14.5" barrels need the longer Phantoms/Vortex to reach the 16" minimum non-NFA limit.

Most 16" barrels come with the A2.  Not only is it an added expense to switch you will slightly increase the weight & length.

But comeparing the flash from a 14.5" with Phantom to a 16" with phantom - I couldn't tell the difference (other than the 14.5 was a little louder).
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:18:29 PM EDT

You won't be able to bring the AR legally into Kali-fornia, unless you registered it before the cut-off date irregardless of barrel length.


I know I can't bring a SBR into Kali, that's why I don't want one now, but my understanding is I can bring my no-bans in with a bit of paperwork.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 12:37:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RolandofGilead:
I know I can't bring a SBR into Kali, that's why I don't want one now, but my understanding is I can bring my no-bans in with a bit of paperwork.



NO you can't unless:
1) its for a sanctioned competition.

2) you are in the military and you have been posted to CA.  If you are Joe Civilian or if you retire from the military you cannot keep the weapons unless they were registered prior to cut-off date some years ago.
Link Posted: 1/12/2005 1:16:59 PM EDT
#2 applies here, sorry should have mentioned that before.
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