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Posted: 12/21/2011 7:55:55 PM EDT
I'm building a 5.45 SBR upper and I would like to either purchase the parts pre coated or have them done. I've seen spikes builds that are made this way, but they won't respond to emails about it. Is there anywhere else I can have this done?
Link Posted: 12/21/2011 10:07:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2011 10:43:21 AM EDT
I'd try these guys. A few places like Primary Arms are selling their melonite bolts, and their website says they do firearms as well.

WMD guns

Link Posted: 12/22/2011 3:29:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2011 3:30:14 PM EDT by spc71]
I just got my bolt carrier group back from WMD guns today. It was NiB not melonite but I was pleased with the service. It took about 3 weeks.
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 2:41:25 PM EDT
This is relevant to my interests.

Question though, since the melonite coating hardens the metal surface, would it not be better to have an older / broke in barrel coated? You would think that if you coated a new barrel and it was not "broke in" or had a bur or two in it, that melonite coating it would degrade accuracy / feeding. Doing a barrel that has a 100 rounds or so though it would be well broken in and coating would be a benefit. This is just my theory I have no experience with these barrels, but am wanting to do a 7.62x39 build and have it melonited. Looking for comments from those with first hand experience with these barrels and coating.
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 2:52:25 PM EDT
AIM has Spikes bolts and gas tubes coated in Nickle Boron. They also have 8.25" uppers that are available for preorder that should be instock within a week or two. Link
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 6:33:02 PM EDT
SPC71 , Can we ask how much that BCG treatment cost ?
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 7:59:20 PM EDT
I thought I was reading a thread on here where they said it was not a good idea to do a complete barrel. Something about the barrel extension coming loose afterwards??
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 9:54:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I thought I was reading a thread on here where they said it was not a good idea to do a complete barrel. Something about the barrel extension coming loose afterwards??


This is the first I have heard this

Hope it is false info, I was looking to have this done as well.

Link Posted: 12/27/2011 10:06:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I thought I was reading a thread on here where they said it was not a good idea to do a complete barrel. Something about the barrel extension coming loose afterwards??


This is the first I have heard this

Hope it is false info, I was looking to have this done as well.



My memory has been pretty bad lately and I cant find it with a quick search. Sometimes I wish I was rain man so I could remember everything I skim through
Link Posted: 12/27/2011 10:58:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By daemon734:
I'm building a 5.45 SBR upper and I would like to either purchase the parts pre coated or have them done. I've seen spikes builds that are made this way, but they won't respond to emails about it. Is there anywhere else I can have this done?


Melonite/Nitriding/Nitro-carburizing is not an actual coating, but a gas, plasma, or liquid induced heat-treating that creates an extremely hard surface on existing steel alloys. I have several Nitro-carb's pipes and they take a steel file that slips off them like butter. The entire surface is hardened, so the chamber, throat, and bore are much tougher. They will eat pretty much anything they're fed, so they make steel-cased ammo reliable.

When I drop a piece of sized brass into the chamber, the barrel resonates like a tuning fork for a long period of time. Guys are claiming at least 30% increase in throat/barrel life, so you can take the over-bore cartridges like 6.5x284, .243 Win, and other 6mm/6.5mm/7mm's and extend the barrel life significantly. There isn't any real surface geometry for fouling to take place, so these barrels clean with one pass of a dry patch often.

I'm looking at doing a polygonal rifled barrel this way for my next Grendel project, so we'll see what velocity increases I can get.

Link Posted: 12/27/2011 11:05:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:

My memory has been pretty bad lately and I cant find it with a quick search. Sometimes I wish I was rain man so I could remember everything I skim through


DSA had some issues with it. I'd be willing to bet that it was due to improperly torqued barrel extensions. I doubt you'd have issues with a barrel that was properly assembled to begin with. I could be wrong though. Also, I've heard WMD Guns has a new bore treatment that's supposed to be even better than Melonite.
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 1:27:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
I thought I was reading a thread on here where they said it was not a good idea to do a complete barrel. Something about the barrel extension coming loose afterwards??


This is the first I have heard this

Hope it is false info, I was looking to have this done as well.



My memory has been pretty bad lately and I cant find it with a quick search. Sometimes I wish I was rain man so I could remember everything I skim through


The issue with having an pre-assembled AR barrel melonited is the fact that the barrel extension is a different material than the barrel. When the barrel extension is headspaced/gauged a pin is used to index it in place. But since they are both made of different metals, they will expanded/cool at different rates during the treatment. Further down the line, this could lead to a barrel extension working its was loose from a barrel as the weapon is being fired.

So the correct way of doing it would be: first, nitride barrel, install/headspace barrel extension, and then pin the extension in place.

This information is from CMMG and their WASP treatment (which is a nitride treatment, which is in he same vein as melonite/tennifer)
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 5:00:22 AM EDT

Am I understanding this correctly?

They are saying the barrel nut can back off of melonited barrel/extension assys.?

Link Posted: 12/28/2011 10:25:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:

Am I understanding this correctly?

They are saying the barrel nut can back off of melonited barrel/extension assys.?



No, the barrel extension. It's the part that has the lugs that the bolt engage.
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 10:32:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2011 10:33:40 AM EDT by spc71]
I had a bcg plus 3 extractors and a hammer coated for $130 shipped. It was about $7 to fedex it so $137 total. The bcg consisted of a spare BCM full auto carrier I had laying around and one of those ar15performance 7.62x39 superbolts.
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 10:41:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TornMonkey:

Am I understanding this correctly?

They are saying the barrel nut can back off of melonited barrel/extension assys.?



I do not want to be an alarmist so I'll rephrase it:

If you have a barrel that has been melonited correctly, you wont have any problems. That is to say, the barrel needs to be melonited first, then the barrel extension installed, headspaced/gauged, and then pinned in to place.

The big thing is that when you buy a melonited barrel from a manufacturer, they usually do not tell you the specifics of how the barrel was made. Unless you ask specifically, you don't know if the barrels were treated first and then had their barrel extensions installed or not. So you'd have to take that question to AAC, Spikes, DS Arms, Adam Arms, CMMG, etc...

If you want to have a used barrel or a non-treated barrel melonited, you'd be on your own. I know there are a couple of bolt action guys on Sniper's Hide that have done it and love the benefits. But, that would be an apples to oranges comparison. A bolt action barrel does not have the same "construction" or assembly as an AR barrel.
Link Posted: 12/28/2011 11:33:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2011 12:13:59 PM EDT by Tankdawg0057]
called WMD a few minutes ago they said it would be $50 to melonite a stripped ar barrel. I mentioned the barrel extension issue and he said they haven't had any problems. take that for what it's worth

how hard is it to remove a barrel extension from a barrel and have a gunsmith reinstall?

*edit* did some looking at archived threads seems like removing a barrel extension is a big job and requires gunsmithing. so if I understand correctly to properly melonite a used barrel you have to 1: send barrel off to gunsmith to remove. 2: send barrel and extension in for coating separated 3: send barrel back to gunsmith for reinstall and headspace...sounds expensive

anyone know where I can buy an sbr 7.62x39 barrel that is melonited already?
Link Posted: 12/29/2011 12:12:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tankdawg0057:
called WMD a few minutes ago they said it would be $50 to melonite a stripped ar barrel. I mentioned the barrel extension issue and he said they haven't had any problems. take that for what it's worth

how hard is it to remove a barrel extension from a barrel and have a gunsmith reinstall?

*edit* did some looking at archived threads seems like removing a barrel extension is a big job and requires gunsmithing. so if I understand correctly to properly melonite a used barrel you have to 1: send barrel off to gunsmith to remove. 2: send barrel and extension in for coating separated 3: send barrel back to gunsmith for reinstall and headspace...sounds expensive

anyone know where I can buy an sbr 7.62x39 barrel that is melonited already?


I have heard that there are companies out there that can control the heat of the barrel treatment to such a degree that it will not affect the barrel extension as well. I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig that tests it out. Also, if the extension does fall out, who is liable? The company that does the treatment? or the barrel manufacturer?
Link Posted: 12/29/2011 12:18:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By twoofswords:
Also, if the extension does fall out, who is liable? The company that does the treatment? or the barrel manufacturer?


Not the manufacturer since you had it modified after purchase. And I doubt the company that did the treatment is going to take responsibility either.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:51:59 PM EDT
Here's a thread from SnipersHide regarding meloniting bolt actions/barrels. I believe if you read it all you will come across the contact info for Rodney Lanier who is a long time employee of MMI TruTec. He has been authorized to do small batches on the side since MMI TruTec will only do larger batches now. I will let him quote you prices, but they were very reasonable.

I sent in a sizing die and two complete 1911's (less springs) to be treated. They all turned out VERY nice. The pistols don't have a bunch of rounds since treatment, but everything is working properly and there is no wear. I am more than pleased with the results.

I have heard that best results are had with barrels that have as few rounds as possible through them to verify their accuracy potential (less than 100, preferably even less). Both my 1911 barrels had to be scrubbed vigorously after treatment to remove residue from the treatment. When it is removed the bore will change from a matte finish to a polished black and will then be ready to shoot.

A friend of mine sent in a .458 Socom barrel to Rodney for treatment. He was also pleased and a similar bore cleaning procedure was required. He doesn't have a lot of rounds down it post treatment, but has not had any issues with the barrel and extension being treated while assembled.

HTH
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 9:57:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RegionRat:
http://www.trutecind.com/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/02/shot-show-report-mmi-trutec-salt-bath-nitriding-for-barrels/

See if you can get hold of Joel, I know they are swamped but worth a try.


He sure didn't answer my email.
Link Posted: 1/1/2012 10:53:17 PM EDT
I, and others, had NO luck getting Rodney to reply to emails, but were able to speak with him immediately with a phone call. I believe his info is in the thread I referenced in my previous post.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 8:16:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 8:16:53 PM EDT by daemon734]
Originally Posted By jake-cutter:
AIM has Spikes bolts and gas tubes coated in Nickle Boron. They also have 8.25" uppers that are available for preorder that should be instock within a week or two. Link


I got a couple of their gas tubes for future builds. I am interested in two uppers right now, one SBR and one midlength and don't care if I build them myself or order them made already. I really wish this spikes/AIM 8" upper could come through so I could take a look at it and see if it's what I want. I want a 10.5, was about to build one with a ballistic solutions barrel but I want to see the 8" first.

I'm fairly interested in the Adams Arms pistol 5.45 carbine as well.
Link Posted: 1/5/2012 9:39:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2012 9:44:29 PM EDT by Tim_W]
Melonite is a heat treat not a coating..A salt bath...
When any assembly is melonite treated the extension must be removed, cleaned and re-torqued after the process.
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.
The extension index pin is only 1/8" long and does not anchor the extension to the barrel.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 5:18:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The extension index pin is only 1/8" long and does not anchor the extension to the barrel.


This ^^^. There's been alot of talk in this thread about that pin going through the barrel extension, and into the barrel - it doesn't. It doesn't lock or "pin" the extension to the barrel in any way.
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 9:28:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.


How come?
Link Posted: 1/6/2012 9:39:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.


How come?


When a part is torqued as hard as an extension is when it's installed, it deforms the barrel shoulder and threads.

If it comes loose, when it's retorqued, it won't be in the same place.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:19:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.


How come?


When a part is torqued as hard as an extension is when it's installed, it deforms the barrel shoulder and threads.

If it comes loose, when it's retorqued, it won't be in the same place.


Interesting. Kind of like torque to yield bolts on a head.

So your take is that you cannot melonite a complete barrel correct?
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:24:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.


How come?


When a part is torqued as hard as an extension is when it's installed, it deforms the barrel shoulder and threads.

If it comes loose, when it's retorqued, it won't be in the same place.


Interesting. Kind of like torque to yield bolts on a head.

So your take is that you cannot melonite a complete barrel correct?


I haven't tried it yet, but it's accepted that barrels should be done before the port is drilled.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:29:14 AM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 7:51:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By ALASKANFIRE:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
If you treat a barrel with a gas port in it the gas port will not line up with the index pin in the extension after being melonite treated and re-torqued.


How come?


When a part is torqued as hard as an extension is when it's installed, it deforms the barrel shoulder and threads.

If it comes loose, when it's retorqued, it won't be in the same place.


Interesting. Kind of like torque to yield bolts on a head.

So your take is that you cannot melonite a complete barrel correct?

I know someone who has had about 5000 barrels Melonite treated in the past 3 years, he removes the extension, cleans the threads and re-torques the extension.
He says they do not align in the same spot and why he drills the gas port after replacing the extension. The port may be close but close isn't good enough.
The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 8:18:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.



How so?
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 8:57:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.



How so?

We're not talking doubling in size here. 16 threads/inch means each rotation of the extension moves the extension .0625" forward so 1/4 turn is .0156. 1/8 turn is .007, 1/16th turn which is 22.5 degrees moves the extension .003" that is about as thick as a piece of paper. So see how just a little change in dimension can put the hole off center?

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 1:08:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.



How so?

We're not talking doubling in size here. 16 threads/inch means each rotation of the extension moves the extension .0625" forward so 1/4 turn is .0156. 1/8 turn is .007, 1/16th turn which is 22.5 degrees moves the extension .003" that is about as thick as a piece of paper. So see how just a little change in dimension can put the hole off center?



While all of that is true, Melonite really doesnt add thickness, since it's a heat treat/surface conversion finish.

It adds something like a few microns of dimension, IIRC, which is practically nothing.
Link Posted: 1/7/2012 2:09:32 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2012 2:11:31 PM EDT by Tim_W]
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.



How so?

We're not talking doubling in size here. 16 threads/inch means each rotation of the extension moves the extension .0625" forward so 1/4 turn is .0156. 1/8 turn is .007, 1/16th turn which is 22.5 degrees moves the extension .003" that is about as thick as a piece of paper. So see how just a little change in dimension can put the hole off center?



While all of that is true, Melonite really doesnt add thickness, since it's a heat treat/surface conversion finish.

It adds something like a few microns of dimension, IIRC, which is practically nothing.


I didn't say it added thickness I said it changes the dimensions just like all heat treat does. That is why govt/mil specs say the bolts must be finish ground after the heat treat.
If you want to send a barrel to be melonited with a gas port in it to see for yourself go for it. It only cost a couple hundred bucks to learn first hand.

Link Posted: 1/7/2012 6:14:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:
Originally Posted By Bretshooter:
Originally Posted By Tim_W:

The Melonite treatment may change the size of the material.



How so?

We're not talking doubling in size here. 16 threads/inch means each rotation of the extension moves the extension .0625" forward so 1/4 turn is .0156. 1/8 turn is .007, 1/16th turn which is 22.5 degrees moves the extension .003" that is about as thick as a piece of paper. So see how just a little change in dimension can put the hole off center?



While all of that is true, Melonite really doesnt add thickness, since it's a heat treat/surface conversion finish.

It adds something like a few microns of dimension, IIRC, which is practically nothing.


I didn't say it added thickness I said it changes the dimensions just like all heat treat does. That is why govt/mil specs say the bolts must be finish ground after the heat treat.
If you want to send a barrel to be melonited with a gas port in it to see for yourself go for it. It only cost a couple hundred bucks to learn first hand.



I explained earlier in the thread why that's a bad idea.
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