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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/29/2005 9:31:08 AM EDT
A Colt is so great because of the quality control and the military spec that only they and FN have, right? Well when does a Colt stop being a Colt? I've read on this board and others a hundred times that you don't take a built rifle to a training class, you take one from the ABC's (Armalite Bushmaster Colt). Well when do we cross the line from Colt to built gun?

Replace the stock. That doesn't affect the function of the rifle. Replace the handgrip. That doesn't affect the function of the rifle. Replace the plastic forend with a nicer looking one. Well that doesn't really affect the function of the rifle either. But now it gets tricky. Replace the barrel? Let's say with a Noveske. If quality control and such are hallmarks of Colt, and Noveske barrels are definately quality, does that really affect the function of the gun? Replace the gas block with a low profile gas block. That doesn't really affect the function of the gun, does it? As long as you're not widening the gas port, or adding expansion chambers or whatever it has still got the same function, but it looks different. (And lets you change the length of the handguard, since carbine is a bit short for some tastes.) What about switching, say, a 6920 from a carbine-length to a mid-length gas system? I would suppose that this is the point where you've changed enough of the function that it's a built gun. But then there's the recoil buffer. I never did like that SRPOING! sound, and from the 14 page thread about the Enidine hydraulic buffer, it seems that they do nothing but good things. How does the recoil buffer affect the function of the rifle? I'm not sure if this would be catagorized under cosmetic change (like the grip and stock), or functionality change (like a new barrel and gas block).

So let me pose the final question. A 6920 with a VLTOR stock, Magpul grip and trigger guard, Enidine hydraulic recoil buffer, Noveske 14.5" barrel with low profile gas block (keeping the carbine-length gas system) and Krink flash hider, and a LaRue 13.2" handguard. The upper/lower/internals are all still the same. The only major change is the barrel and gas block, but they retain the carbine-length gas system. Where does the recoil buffer fall? All other changes are cosmetic, so do they even matter to the function of the rifle? Would this rifle be considered a "customized Colt" or just another build? Would this gun be something that could be trusted to fire 3,000 rounds over the course of a 4 or 5 day course like a stock Colt?

This is all just curiosity. I'm too poor at the moment to even think of buying a Colt, let alone putting LaRue and Noveske parts on it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:38:56 AM EDT
A COLT stops being a COLT the second it enters CIVILIAN HANDS!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 9:49:55 AM EDT
Well it would sound like to me, that you would have a Colt Lower, Upper and Bolt Group.

Think in terms of sale. I have: One Colt 6920 that has been modified with the following parts, all original parts included
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:34:57 AM EDT
To me, it sounds like you are doing a custom build with Colt parts.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:49:33 PM EDT
I consider it a custom built Colt.

I just completed a similar build but on my 6721 Tactical Carbine rather than a 6920 model.

This is my third and last build of the year and here are the components I used:

Phoenix FS
Denny's Guns (Global Tactical) Operator 16" mid length, mid weight profile Rockcreek (Mike Rock) barrel
F marked FSB
LaRue 9.0 FF rails
TangoDown panels and VFG
KAC BUIS
Norgon ambi mag catch
KNS anti-rotation pins
Stag Arms ambi selector
Magpul trigger guard and MIAD grip
Vltor club foot modstock set
GI teflon finished mags with Magpul followers, Ranger plates and Wolff springs
Aimpoint M2
KAC QR aimpoint mount
GG&G heavy duty non-swivel bipod

I'm still in the process of testing it and I know that I have changed the functionality of the factory build.

I like it so far and it's better than my LMT Defender 2000 M4 with KAC M4 RAS, MIAD grip and Vltor modstock.

I'll only be confident with it if it was tested by a professional builder. YMMV
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 12:54:22 PM EDT
What are KNS anti rotation pins? What do they do, and why do you have them? Where do they go?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:03:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:

I'll only be confident with it if it was tested by a professional builder. YMMV



Might we ask why? Does your function with a wide variety of mags & ammo & if so, how many rounds thru it do you need to determine it's proper function.

Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:14:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theWalrus:
What are KNS anti rotation pins? What do they do, and why do you have them? Where do they go?


Anti-rotation pins replaces the hammer and trigger pins and connects the ends together with screw fastened bar to prevent the pins from popping out.

It's usually better for full auto lowers but I wanted it when I bump fire.

You could find them at the Equipment Exchange, there are a lot of sellers that have them if you're interested.


KNS Precision Inc. website link
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:27:47 PM EDT
They pretty much stop being Colt when you replace any of the following:

Barrel
or Upper
or Lower

Many will call them Colt, but do so to add credibility to their build, even if their build in in some ways superior to the original.

Most would want to buy a Colt Model(_ _ _ _ ) all original condition, and if any modifications are to be done, they want to do them

My .02
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 1:31:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VLODPG:

Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:

I'll only be confident with it if it was tested by a professional builder. YMMV



Might we ask why? Does your function with a wide variety of mags & ammo & if so, how many rounds thru it do you need to determine it's proper function.



I have been using AR-15s for 34 years now but I'm not a professional builder.

My 6721 is just my third build ever, my first build was a Colt Match Target HBAR lower (with a factory Colt M16A2 upper) and my second build was a LMT Defender 2000 which I just pushed the takedown pins.

Both my first two builds are running fine so far.

I would consider my rig to be good to go if a pro builder tested it for at least 100 rounds of military ammo with no FTF and I at least past 600 rounds without any problems.

That's just my .02 cents opinion, YMMV.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:32:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theWalrus:
What are KNS anti rotation pins? What do they do, and why do you have them? Where do they go?



They are a waste of money, Bro! Do you see the military using them? HELL NO!

It's another snake oil item that's a solution to a non existant problem. If your pins are falling out then you have some kind of parts spec issue or you assembled it wrong.

Any time I see a pic of a guys gun with those stupid things on it, I know I'm dealing with an ASS WIPE!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 5:42:47 PM EDT
There is no Colt.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 6:47:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By theWalrus:
What are KNS anti rotation pins? What do they do, and why do you have them? Where do they go?



They are a waste of money, Bro! Do you see the military using them? HELL NO!

It's another snake oil item that's a solution to a non existant problem. If your pins are falling out then you have some kind of parts spec issue or you assembled it wrong.

Any time I see a pic of a guys gun with those stupid things on it, I know I'm dealing with an ASS WIPE!



the fourth part of the markm package which also includes:

winter trigger guards

magpul floorplates and followers

and a mega match trigger

IT's a MUST HAVE!
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:09:18 PM EDT
Markm- I thought I was the prick on this board but I guess I have some things to learn! Every post I see of yours has something about civilians shouldn't own firearms, civilians shouldn't own certain weapons etc.

What gives- hell I know SF guys, Marine Recon, even a Navy SEAL that don't act like that.

Asswipe- who uses that?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 7:11:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 7:18:41 PM EDT by gmtmaster]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By theWalrus:
What are KNS anti rotation pins? What do they do, and why do you have them? Where do they go?



They are a waste of money, Bro! Do you see the military using them? HELL NO!

It's another snake oil item that's a solution to a non existant problem. If your pins are falling out then you have some kind of parts spec issue or you assembled it wrong.

Any time I see a pic of a guys gun with those stupid things on it, I know I'm dealing with an ASS WIPE!



Hold on a min...... Ass wipe wants to make a comment here..

I use KNS pins on my M16.. For 1 reason... 11K...

If I was issued one and it failed, I get issued another..

I didnt get issued what I have, I bought it.. Whatever I can do to prevent wear I will do...


If I could buy a new M4 for what the military pays for them, I wouldnt use the pins.
Link Posted: 12/30/2005 9:30:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
They are a waste of money, Bro! Do you see the military using them? HELL NO!




Maybe they should, I've seen a M16A2 and an A4 trigger pins walk out to the point of disabling the rifle. Neither rifle had a huge round count based on external appearances.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:32:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
A COLT stops being a COLT the second it enters CIVILIAN HANDS!

What the hell does that mean?
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:50:26 PM EDT
I took markm's post to mean that the Colt that the military gets is not the same as what ends up in our hands.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 6:02:11 PM EDT
Well duh, the ones we buy don't have auto sears.

So most of you still haven't answered my original question. New barrel and gas block and buffer, is the rifle still going to run reliable like a Colt out of the box?
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