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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/14/2005 12:02:12 AM EDT
Hey all, I just finished building my AR lower with a Bushmaster lower and Olympic Arms stock and LPK kit. The LMT upper is on the way, and will be purchasing a standard bolt/bolt carrier locally.

I'm bought this weapon after Katrina, and will be using it at the range regularly, and of course, as a weapon just in case the SHTF... you know, natural disaster, invasion by Canada or if the dead rise from their graves and attack the living.

Two things I have so far been unable to find, is what to do when the rifle is dropped into a body of water... The Army/USMC manual tells one to pull back the charging handle and shake vigously, but for how long? And what about water in the gas tube, will that cause a rupture? I just noted in a tactical gun rag that the HK M-16 clone with a piston based operation is able to fire immediately after immersion, and the mag warns to never attempt something like that with a M4/M-16 type weapon. What does one do?

Also, in a SHTF scenario where an armorer is not immediately available, what can one do if a faulty round is fed and the bullet is stuck in the bore without an armorer??? What are tell tale signs of a bullet stuck in the bore? And what will happen if the operator fires another round or two... completely oblivious?

These are just silly questions, because hopefully I'll never have to deal with something like that, but i'd like to here some "educated guesses" or known procedures.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:23:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 12:25:22 AM EDT by MurdockTheCrazy]

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
Hey all, I just finished building my AR lower with a Bushmaster lower and Olympic Arms stock and LPK kit. The LMT upper is on the way, and will be purchasing a standard bolt/bolt carrier locally.



Welcome to the club... One of the regulars should be by to hand our cigars any time now [right guys? ].


I'm bought this weapon after Katrina, and will be using it at the range regularly, and of course, as a weapon just in case the SHTF... you know, natural disaster, invasion by Canada or if the dead rise from their graves and attack the living.


Well, if you planned to fight off a Canadian invasion, you bought the wrong weapon... A good BB gun would be much more practicle for that.


Two things I have so far been unable to find, is what to do when the rifle is dropped into a body of water... The Army/USMC manual tells one to pull back the charging handle and shake vigously, but for how long?


I'm not an expert on just what water does inside a rifle, but my guess would be until any serious amount of water stops rushing/dripping out.


And what about water in the gas tube, will that cause a rupture?


The water would be converted to steam, which would generate presure.. Not sure if it's enough to hurt the gas tube... I'd really doubt it... Maybe if the gas tube was totally flooded...


I just noted in a tactical gun rag that the HK M-16 clone with a piston based operation is able to fire immediately after immersion, and the mag warns to never attempt something like that with a M4/M-16 type weapon. What does one do?


Good luck finding a way to buy an HK-416 .


Also, in a SHTF scenario where an armorer is not immediately available, what can one do if a faulty round is fed and the bullet is stuck in the bore without an armorer???


Pray.

Then pull out your backup rifle .

Basically only thing you can do is use your cleaning rod to push out the bullet... Really a pain in the arse in combat however...


What are tell tale signs of a bullet stuck in the bore?


Less than normal report... And no noticed effect on target [the latter may be impossible to tell at times].


And what will happen if the operator fires another round or two... completely oblivious?


If he fires another round, the barrel will burst... At best it'll just punch a nice long-ways split in the barrel and handguards... At worst the whole front end of the rifle will go bye-bye along with anything near it.


These are just silly questions, because hopefully I'll never have to deal with something like that,


Most likely you won't, with good ammo bullets almost never get stuck in the barrel.


but i'd like to here some "educated guesses" or known procedures.


Gave my best guesses, probably all wrong .
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:29:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 12:33:00 AM EDT by gordon_freeman]
Hmm.

Thanks for your quick answers. I guess the best thing to do is to shoot my rifle as much as possible to get used to its normal operations so I can note when something is wrong... and to buy a sidearm, w00t!

I wonder if there is anyway to retrofit a Mforgery with a piston type operation. I'm from the car world, and I've seen some creative things people do, that most would think impossible, like a supercharger + turbo combination, or even a Bi-Turbo + Super charger combo. I'm sure some smarty somewhere has been able to create something like a piston operated AR...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:47:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 12:53:48 AM EDT by Darkest2000]

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
I wonder if there is anyway to retrofit a Mforgery with a piston type operation.


If you really don't like the direct gas system (which I consider a plus on the AR), then AR isn't for you. Get an AK. Lucky for you, there's an AK47 section on this forum.



I'm sure some smarty somewhere has been able to create something like a piston operated AR...



One thing you should understand is that the direct gas system is what makes an "AR" an "AR". If you change it, then what you have is something that looks like an AR but isn't. You can drop a viper V12 engine in a Honda civic, but that car is no longer a civic.

And yes, a gas piston AR has been done many times in the past, AR18, Taiwanese Type 65, Korean K2 are a few gas piston M16/AR18 hybrids. ZM weapons also made a gas piston operated upper, and most recently, POF and HK came out with their own versions, all of which are expensive. There may be more but these are the few I can think of off the top of my head.

You should really think about why you chose an AR?

Why did the original designer opt for the direct gas over gas piston?

How many failures have you exprienced with a direct gas upper?

Does a gas piston set up really make your gun that much more reliable?

Is the added cost, weight, and parts count of a gas piston upper worth it?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:59:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 1:00:49 AM EDT by bolster]
There are a couple of manufacturers doing piston uppers. POF makes them and Leitner-Wise makes them, but I am not sure what availability is with LW. There is also KKF. I think you can send your upper to KKF and they will do it for you. I'm not sure what the cost is.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:04:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Darkest2000:

If you really don't like the direct gas system (which I consider a plus on the AR), then AR isn't for you. Get an AK. Lucky for you, there's an AK47 section on this forum.




Actually i'm looking to build myself an AK out of a kit with the ban on imported parts coming up... I guess I found out the first technical flashpoint regarding ARs, much like people with turbo charged cars hate the idea of having a supercharger instead. I was just shooting the shit, and I will stick with the standard gas operation... I'm OCD and like to clean anyway,

I didn't know that the Taiwanese type 65 was piston operated, i always assumed it was just a licensed AR knock off. I have many friends who are veterans, thanks to the complusory service in Taiwan and they like to refer to the K65 as a "widow maker" in regards to it's reliability and lack of a foward assist, hehe. Thanks for that info, you sure know your stuff!

Any more comments regarding clearing the rifle of water, or a lodged bullet? One thing that also makes me wonder is water trapped in the lower receiver, would that be an issue, or would it shake right out? I'm not going to throw my baby into the bathtub right after I assemble it, lol
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:14:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
Any more comments regarding clearing the rifle of water, or a lodged bullet? One thing that also makes me wonder is water trapped in the lower receiver, would that be an issue, or would it shake right out? I'm not going to throw my baby into the bathtub right after I assemble it, lol



There are many places on the lower where water can drain out rather quickely so that was never an issue.

Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:15:44 AM EDT
Just dont bump-fire it UNDER water.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:19:27 AM EDT
There are 2 1 LW 10.3in 5.56K-P uppers available NOW (folk withdrew from group buy) with ARM-R on. Please contact 48th Highlander for details.

The critical area to keep clear of water is the barrel. A waterlogged gas tube will prbably result in the weapon not cycling but a waterlogged barrel can create dangerous overpressure. The basic problem is the small diameter of the .223 barrels mroe than anything else in evacuating enough water.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:22:38 AM EDT
I'm not advocating anyone try this, since I have no idea IF it would work...

For a bullet lodged in the barrel due to an underpowered load, would firing a blank expel the round out the barrel, or would it KABOOM the rifle?


Thoughts? Experiences?
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:29:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
I'm not advocating anyone try this, since I have no idea IF it would work...

For a bullet lodged in the barrel due to an underpowered load, would firing a blank expel the round out the barrel, or would it KABOOM the rifle?


Thoughts? Experiences?



LOL!!! That would be interesting to test and find out... Someone's gotta donate their AR though, let's draw straws!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:26:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:

Originally Posted By npd233:
I'm not advocating anyone try this, since I have no idea IF it would work...

For a bullet lodged in the barrel due to an underpowered load, would firing a blank expel the round out the barrel, or would it KABOOM the rifle?


Thoughts? Experiences?



LOL!!! That would be interesting to test and find out... Someone's gotta donate their AR though, let's draw straws!



I would never try it with blanks, besides, they are not very powerful anyway, which is a probably a good thing if it's truly lodged. I suppose if the round is foward of the gas ports in the barrel, at best fring a blank may end up cycling the action, with the lodged bullet working like a BFA(blank firing attachment) .

In an actual emergency you should just push it back out with your cleaning rod.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 4:35:38 AM EDT
Water in the AR? DRain and fire. I think the mil. actually has a procedure, someone will post it I imagine. As for bullet stuck the barrel. Use the mil. Cleaning kit. The cleaning rods are steel, not alum. so shouldn't bend as much. I carry a mil. kit in the field, but use a alum. rod for all cleaning I can , so I don't scratch or damage the barrel.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 5:58:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gordon_freeman:
........I'm sure some smarty somewhere has been able to create something like a piston operated AR...



Give these guys a call, they can convert your AR to use their gas piston to the tune of about $600.

www.leitner-wise.com

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