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Posted: 7/25/2013 7:36:01 PM EDT
Okay, i dont know if this is all soldiers, but most of the pictures i have seen of them they are doing this:
Vertical grips on a carbine are for you to reach out farther to the end and have a more secure grip point. the pictures i've seen, they're so far back you can barely get your thumb behind them without hitting the magwell. and a lot of them are standing there with the stocks fully colapsed, leaning slightly back with the acog right up to their face. dont say it's because of a plate carier because ive shot with the same vest they wear, and it's not hard to use the rifle like you should. sorry for my rant. i just hate seeing pics like that.

See what i mean about it close to the magwell?
href=http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag122/Dustinml14/659px-US-_Solder-m4_zps389137cf.jpg" />

This is a facebook pic but damn, this is the worst damn shooting form i've seen, he's probably not even shooting the rifle in this picture but damn.
href=http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag122/Dustinml14/546858_635187516506436_834461572_n_zpsb62ccd84.jpg" />

Look at this one! An m16a4! having a vert grip that close actually prevents you from holding it steady and shooting straight.
href=http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag122/Dustinml14/m16a4_marine_zpsf4f18679.jpg" />

Okay, see what i mean? this is just stupid.
href=http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag122/Dustinml14/m16a4_zps965d599d.jpg" />

It may come down to personal preference but god damn. Biggest pet peeve of mine.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:38:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:41:16 PM EDT
That is where they want it I wasn't aware of the rule.

Hell, some guys prefer a magwell grip.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:41:21 PM EDT
I've heard folks say that it makes it more comfortable when they have to hold a slung rifle for extended periods of time. Of course, that's personal preference too.  What works for one guy may not work for others.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:44:45 PM EDT
Understand that most people in the military shoot very little and are not "gun people".
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:48:07 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Understand that most people in the military shoot very little and are not "gun people".
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This
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:49:12 PM EDT
You can hold a rifle steady for longer when the vert grip is in that position. Less fatigue from having an arm outstretched in the cool guy thumb over bore grip. Since the pictures you posted have magnified optics on the rifles, and 90% of the time spent looking through those optics is to observe, not shooting, it makes more sense that they would have the vert grips in closer to the magwell.

Believe it or not, guys were shooting M4/M16 style rifles long before the Magpul DVDs came out.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:49:29 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Understand that most people in the military shoot very little and are not "gun people".
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That's sad but true.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:50:24 PM EDT
Well when you carry your rifle for a year straight everywhere you go you will have the option to put it wherever you want and people shouldn't be "peeved" about your placement.  I don't place the vert grip on my issued rifle that close to the magwell but a lot of guys do and if it is good for them, it is good for me because that means they are ready to fight with it like that.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:52:20 PM EDT
I've had mine close like that, it worked, but then I changed it to farther out now, near the end of the rail. It works there too.

If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid.

<shrug>
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:52:48 PM EDT
Watch magpul's video and think you know it all, huh?
Good use of post #7, BTW.

Next time complain about them not blading at 45*.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:54:04 PM EDT
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Quoted:
You can hold a rifle steady for longer when the vert grip is in that position. Less fatigue from having an arm outstretched in the cool guy thumb over bore grip. Since the pictures you posted have magnified optics on the rifles, and 90% of the time spent looking through those optics is to observe, not shooting, it makes more sense that they would have the vert grips in closer to the magwell.

Believe it or not, guys were shooting M4/M16 style rifles long before the Magpul DVDs came out.
View Quote



Believe it or not, guys where shooting M16A1s holding them with the "Magpul Method".  It is way older than Costa.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 7:58:13 PM EDT
Edited...VA-gunnut
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:10:25 PM EDT
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:13:06 PM EDT
It's also better for weapon retention, the closer to the body you hold it the better. The "magpul" grip isn't great for room clearing in real life where you might be in grabbing distance of a bad guy.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:16:33 PM EDT
Tell ya what chief, next time you go to the range try this (I'm guessing by your post you are a extended support arm shooter) you hold your rifle up looking down sights or scope or whatever you have for 30 minutes or so just observing without changing positions! These guys aren't running through a Costa carbine course or a 3gun match, but then you know that already! They do what works for them just like every member here does. So put a lid on your "peeves" and go with the old adage if you don't have anything nice to say then say nothing, because honestly it just makes you look like a prick.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:17:35 PM EDT
Farther out works for competition. Doesn't work as well clearing a 6 story building after hiking in the field for hours.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:18:05 PM EDT
If there is one thing that is true about soldiers is that they will adapt to anything that will work to keep them alive and give them comfort. If a vertical grip at the end of a rifle worked in the field. they would adapt it. Gets hung up on gear, harder to shoot through a window and difficult to fire over walls. Apparently they do not favor an extended grip.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:20:19 PM EDT
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Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.
View Quote


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:22:36 PM EDT
Not saying it's why they do it, but watch small bore or high power shooters sometime, a close support hand grip with the elbow dropped against the body is far more steady and easier to hold without fatigue than an extended grip, it may not be as quick in transitions, but they're not running against a clock trying to beat the time of the guy next to them. I'm not mil, I used to run mine there, then I decided it was pointless so I just use the magwell, seems to work pretty well.

I don't do the fully collapsed stock, but I do know that allot of soldiers don't shoot from the shoulder pocket and instead rest the stock inside over the pec as it makes you square with your target which presents more of your armor to that threat. Holding a gun there, unless your chest is concave or you have a very long neck and don't mind contorting requires very little l.o.p. for a nose to charging handle hold.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:25:27 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.

Come back after your first tour and tell us about the Costa grip. And honestly in all sincerity, good luck to you.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 8:34:56 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.


Well hey, good luck. Be sure to come back and tell us how thankful your drill sergeants were for your advanced knowledge.

Seriously, good luck.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:00:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:19:04 PM EDT
As others have already said, deployed soldiers actually are observing more than shooting, having the grip close lets you rest your support elbow on your stomach so you can hold it for an extended period.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:31:00 PM EDT
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Quoted:


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.



be sure to remind your new unit they're doing shit wrong when if you get there




Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:33:28 PM EDT
Quoted:
Okay, i dont know if this is all soldiers, but most of the pictures i have seen of them they are doing this:
Vertical grips on a carbine are for you to reach out farther to the end and have a more secure grip point. the pictures i've seen, they're so far back you can barely get your thumb behind them without hitting the magwell. and a lot of them are standing there with the stocks fully colapsed, leaning slightly back with the acog right up to their face. dont say it's because of a plate carier because ive shot with the same vest they wear, and it's not hard to use the rifle like you should. sorry for my rant. i just hate seeing pics like that.



It may come down to personal preference but god damn. Biggest pet peeve of mine.
View Quote




go find one of your hot Kansas days - then go patrol 10 miles, wearing "the same vest they wear" - then make sure to throw in firefights while you do it, do some crossfit while you're out there


and see how nicely your "correct" way of doing things works....




Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:41:45 PM EDT
I know soldiers do a lot of observing, but during actual engagements I would rather a grip that allows me to better control the rifle.
So all in all, I agree with what the OP said, but in a less demanding way. The way I would have mine set up is with the vert grip farther away
from my body or without one at all for engagements. If i needed to observe or patrol, then I would bring my arms in into a more compact stance
and leave the grip farther out.

Many people can bash the "Costa" method of shooting, but the bottom line is it works and many other industry professionals have used/use this technique.
They all will tell you  that this method is for engagements and not patrol/observation. Also, this method was around before the Magpul DVDs.

But as was said earlier: soldiers/LEO are simply doing their jobs; they are not necessarily avid shooters who keep up with the way techniques are
changing.

--Edit--

Though I've been reading this forum for a while, I joined just to get into this discussion lol.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:48:06 PM EDT
Oh look a 13'er who has graced us with his knowledge on shooting......

VFGs were more or less used to broom handle M4 carbines when the lasers and lights were so big you couldnt grip the handguards.  Their placement was based on comfort for the shooter and nothing else.  The gamer techniques came as an after thought.  Ask anybody who carries a rifle around for a living and they will tell you their work rifles are setup differently than their home/hd weapons.  Im a stromg guy, I cant carry arround a carbine with a 12" rail, lights, lasers etc etc using the magpul grip all day.

And the guy with the ACOG is using his sight for some visual verfication.  Looking through that gun with all that gear, especially a helmet is a pain.  And canting tye gun a little while holding it above the shoulder pocket makes it easier to look through,  im also told soldiers do this to avoid looking like an enemy combatant incase their is another soldier warching them through their sights.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 9:58:45 PM EDT
you also want your arm covering most of your armpit and upper chest region while shooting, just in case you get shot there. But with your contract i'm sure you know everything so guys that have actually been in fucking firefights should just know better.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:05:38 PM EDT
Stocks too long + body armor making length of pull even longer + limited eye relief optics make it easier to hold the rifle closer in.

An A2 stock  + body armor is going to be close to a 14.5-15" length of pull.  Most people's arms aren't long enough to hold out farther comfortably.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:26:07 PM EDT
It was easier to maneuver and lug around all day with it close in. Having one close in also prevents me from exposing too much of my under arm when I raise my rifle.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:46:39 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You can hold a rifle steady for longer when the vert grip is in that position. Less fatigue from having an arm outstretched in the cool guy thumb over bore grip. Since the pictures you posted have magnified optics on the rifles, and 90% of the time spent looking through those optics is to observe, not shooting, it makes more sense that they would have the vert grips in closer to the magwell.

Believe it or not, guys were shooting M4/M16 style rifles long before the Magpul DVDs came out.
View Quote



This

Lil Ass 13er
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 10:52:34 PM EDT
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Quoted:



This

Lil Ass 13er
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Quoted:
Quoted:
You can hold a rifle steady for longer when the vert grip is in that position. Less fatigue from having an arm outstretched in the cool guy thumb over bore grip. Since the pictures you posted have magnified optics on the rifles, and 90% of the time spent looking through those optics is to observe, not shooting, it makes more sense that they would have the vert grips in closer to the magwell.

Believe it or not, guys were shooting M4/M16 style rifles long before the Magpul DVDs came out.



This

Lil Ass 13er




sigh...
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:07:05 PM EDT
You give those of us that joined in 2013 a bad name with your stupid ass bullshit. How bout we play a game called hide and go fuck yourself.

1. As mentioned, it's more comfortable and stable over a longer period of time
2. They're not putting any rounds down range.
3. When you're clearing a room you want a small profile. Keep your hand out that for transitioning and you open a fuck ton of space where you have zero coverage from your body armor, plate carrier, etc.

But you know it all so I bow down to your awesomeness.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:10:39 PM EDT
Carry a rifle for a couple days straight in addition to 50-60 lbs of other crap worn on the body without good rest, and see if you can use your rifle effectively with the grip out and your arm fully extended.  Its a lot easier to support weight when its closer to your core, the picture of the guy glassing the countryside supporting his carbine with his elbow in his midsection says it all.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:12:31 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Understand that most people in the military shoot very little and are not "gun people".
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This.

And the "leaning back with a weak hold looking through my ACOG stance" is what you use if you want to use the magnification of an ACOG to scan an area.  They're not actually shooting.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:13:58 PM EDT

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Quoted:
I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.




I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
Oh, so you're a near veteran?



 
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:15:14 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.
View Quote


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=679652168717144&set=pb.190158030999896.-2207520000.1374822788.&type=3&theater

Yeah, look at this guy holding his rifle like a Coast Guard fag.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:23:56 PM EDT
Stand and/or walk around for an hour or two (or day or two...) holding a rifle at low ready, and you'll figure out why that grip is there.  Military rifles are carried a lot and generally fired very little.

Regardless of the merits of the technique, the military configuration M4 doesn't have a handguard set up for the extended support arm shooting style.

The extended support arm shooting technique existed long before Costa or the Magpul videos, and does work very well when used appropriately to the situation.  It's one tool in the box, and not suitable for every shooting situation.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:28:21 PM EDT
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Quoted:


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=679652168717144&set=pb.190158030999896.-2207520000.1374822788.&type=3&theater

Yeah, look at this guy holding his rifle like a Coast Guard fag.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=679652168717144&set=pb.190158030999896.-2207520000.1374822788.&type=3&theater

Yeah, look at this guy holding his rifle like a Coast Guard fag.


+1
As I said earlier: Many use this technique, but it is for actual engagements and not patrol and observation.
Link Posted: 7/25/2013 11:31:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 12:10:49 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Oh, so you're a near veteran?
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.


I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
Oh, so you're a near veteran?
 



/snicker
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 1:10:09 AM EDT
sorry folks, he's not coming back

well he SAYS he's not -but we all know he is

meanie heads


but in case anyone wants to continue to learn from his expertise:




Link Posted: 7/26/2013 2:48:04 AM EDT
This whole thread made me laugh. Ultimately your opinion doesn't matter and your future contract with the Army doesn't mean fuck especially since you haven't even been to basic yet.

Its all personal preference, in my unit (Infantry BN, I am not a 11b) I see most people with GRIPODS mid way to short and I've seen a few guy with a AFG way out there. Whatever is comfortable, whatever you can use confidently thats what actually matters. I personally shoot from my magwell but I have reduced rotation in my wrist that causes issues with my grip.
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 3:22:54 AM EDT
I can imagine there are situations while deployed that would not come up with civilian shooting.  Into / out of vehicle windows, over walls and such where the grip would force the user to expose themselves more.



A v-grip way out on the front of the rail would raise the whole rifle up a few inches for the same line of sight.
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 3:38:23 AM EDT
I don't think this post went as he expected.
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 3:49:32 AM EDT
.
 
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 3:50:15 AM EDT
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Quoted:
sorry folks, he's not coming back

well he SAYS he's not -but we all know he is

meanie heads


but in case anyone wants to continue to learn from his expertise:


http://youtu.be/66y1ThZzBF0

View Quote


I generally try to be a nice guy because even I say stupid stuff frequently, but the part of the video where he says he mostly uses his shotgun for hunting coyote, and sometimes uses it for tactical, I about lost it.

Good luck in the military OP.
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 4:07:02 AM EDT

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Quoted:
I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.
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Quoted:



Quoted:

So these guys who do this shit for real are wrong, but because a coastie tells you that looking like a fag and being in a position that limits your peripheral severely helps you drive your rifle, you are correct? LOL! This is why I don't post in the "technical" section. How about this, you get your ass to the recruiting office sign up for 11B or 0311 and go show those boys what up.




I have an 11x Option 40 Air Ranger contract.




 
lolz
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 4:17:10 AM EDT
If it works, it aint stupid.
Link Posted: 7/26/2013 4:20:48 AM EDT
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[b]Believe it or not, guys were shooting M4/M16 style rifles long before the Magpul DVDs came out.
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This. Have fun in basic training, OP.

When you get issued a worn-white rifle that is older than you are, be sure to ask the armory to perm-attach a battlecomp and install a 13" VTAC.


ETA: dangit, I wasted post #87 on this garbage.
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