Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/4/2005 10:20:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 10:21:28 AM EDT by graywolf]
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:28:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:39:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



And why do civillians need AR-15's, Why do people need huge SUV's when you can drive a car? I am really hoping that bill wont pass but I have stocked up on m855.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:54:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 11:56:50 AM EDT
Buy some soap on a rope because when they get me off the train for the free shower I don't want someone to take advantage of me if I drop mine. h.gif
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:07:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



Who is "they," what is the bill number, and are you sure it applies to M855 - which BATF has consistently held is not AP under existing law?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:17:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By justinwb:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



And why do civillians need AR-15's, Why do people need huge SUV's when you can drive a car? I am really hoping that bill wont pass but I have stocked up on m855.

righton!!!!!!! I hope it doesn't either that will be the beginning
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:24:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?

GO AWAY TROLL
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 12:26:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?


Wow... some people just suck at life.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:41:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 5:59:20 PM EDT by rch]

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



Sheep.



Freedom has its limitations, also.he
Back in the 1980's in the Philippines, when the communist insurgency was at its peak(they attacked two police stations in the city, and it was an ugly sight), we had little or no ammo choice; the M193 being the bread and butter. We made good use of it, and they served their purpose.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:51:38 PM EDT
Slamfest taggage.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:53:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?




You ain't an American are ya?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 5:55:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dbrowne1:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



Who is "they," what is the bill number, and are you sure it applies to M855 - which BATF has consistently held is not AP under existing law?



ATF also consistently held that is was OK to import AK parts kits.
Not no more - they reinterpreted the law to suit their own needs.
I don't put much faith in the ATF.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:02:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 6:05:10 PM EDT by rch]

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



hr


But I was among those who helped protect American citizens and their interests (businesses) when I was still living there. And I enjoyed the opportunity of serving to protect Americans, and would never hesitate if called to do it again.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:06:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?




You ain't an American are ya?



But I was among those who helped protect American citizens and their interests (businesses) when I was still living there. And I enjoyed the opportunity of serving to protect Americans, and would never hesitate if called to do it again.



I thank you for that.
But I think you did not quite get the true meaning of the 2nd Amendment during your stay here.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:32:23 PM EDT
You're most welcome!
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:44:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



The second amedent is for protecting our ablity to have another revolution and over throw a tyranical government. U.S. troops and police ware body armor and I will need to be able to shoot through it in such a senerio.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 6:54:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 8:00:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



LOTS of different caliber ammo pierces BPVs--like the the .30-66, .308, .270, and 7mm mag that i use to hunt deer with

so they should be banned too?
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 9:56:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



LOTS of different caliber ammo pierces BPVs--like the the .30-66, .308, .270, and 7mm mag that i use to hunt deer withhinking.gif

so they should be banned too?



I'm not talking of other calibers. True, they penetrate body armor. But, would it be wise to use armored piercing bullets in densely populated areas? They could overpenetrate and hit some innocent person.hinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:27:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:

Originally Posted By rch:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



follow the law. Why would a civilian need armor piercing ammo?



LOTS of different caliber ammo pierces BPVs--like the the .30-66, .308, .270, and 7mm mag that i use to hunt deer with

so they should be banned too?



I'm not talking of other calibers. True, they penetrate body armor. But, would it be wise to use armored piercing bullets in densely populated areas? They could overpenetrate and hit some innocent person.



Most all rifle ammo will overpenetrate in an urban area.
Take a look at Old_Painless' Box O'Truth
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 10:49:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2005 10:51:25 PM EDT by Quien]
I guess I'll buy different ammo.

ETA: I only have 10 rounds of green tip. Everything else is q3131 and m193. Lots of crappy stuff whitebox and wolf for plinking.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:09:03 AM EDT
Acually they are giving the attorny general the power to change the standard for judging what qualifies as "AP" and the standard is going to go from what can penetrate 1 inch of steel down to what can penetrate 1/4 inch peice of steel so that means just about everything will be "AP" at those standards. NeverNdn
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:26:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 10:22:51 AM EDT by Truckie351]

Originally Posted By dbrowne1:

Originally Posted By graywolf:
when the man takes away the M855 green tip???? they are currently trying to pass a bill for armor piercing pistol ammo, 15 yrs for having it if this bill passes,, what are you going to do ????????????



Who is "they," what is the bill number, and are you sure it applies to M855 - which BATF has consistently held is not AP under existing law?



I think he might be talking about the Kennedy amendent to S397. Go to this link

or this

Apparently these links expired in a very short time go to http://thomas.loc.gov and do a search for S397.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 9:42:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 9:44:56 AM EDT by CRC]
NOBODY IS BANNING M855.

It is not AP and does not meet the definiton of AP ammo.

The bullet just has a steel core and that is it.

Hardly makes it AP.



Link Posted: 9/5/2005 10:56:36 AM EDT

I believe that most people on this forum know that the SS109's are not AP but I don't think that is true of most shooters. I work in a gun shop and several times a week people come in asking to buy "the green armour piercing bullets". When I tell them that they are steel penetrators and not AP they get mad and say they will take their business elsewhere. Go to ebay or gunbroker and you will find that SS109s are often listed there as AP.

If most shooters don't know the difference what do the you think the odds are that the people inside the beltway will. They make the laws and if they decide that SS109s fall under the definition of AP then they will be part of the bill. This is the Title 18 definition of armour piercing: “The term ‘armor piercing ammunition’ means a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium. Such term does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.”

The bill was originally submitted "to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others". Kennedy tacked on the amendment because he knows that a lot of Senators will vote for the bill because in their opinion it will help manufacturers more than hurt gun owners.

I suggest everyone call or write to their representatives in Washington and ask them what they think about S397. I did, and was told pretty much what I have outlined above.
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 1:00:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rch:
They could overpenetrate and hit some innocent person.



How do we know that person it might hit is innocent?
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 3:36:46 PM EDT
Old_Painless' Box O'Truth


What is this, can you give me a link? I've done a search and come up empty. I saw a reference to this recently in another thread,hinking.gif
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 5:17:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sh00ter:
Old_Painless' Box O'Truth


What is this, can you give me a link? I've done a search and come up empty. I saw a reference to this recently in another thread,hinking.gif



www.theboxotruth.com/
Link Posted: 9/5/2005 6:15:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/5/2005 6:17:21 PM EDT by uglygun]
Like others have mentioned, the SS109 bullet is not an "AP" bullet.

Hell, compare an M855 round against an M193 round on 1/4 inch mild steel plate at 100 yards and see which consistently goes through more often.

Velocity is king in putting holes through steel, the little bit of steel in the SS109 bullet only helps down range where the retained velocity of the 62grn bullet helps deliver a bit more energy on impact. The scales tip in favor of the heavier bullet as ranges increase.


True AP? Try demilled projos like the old 163grn 30-06 or 700grn 50cal. M2 variety, seen both of those go through upwards of 1 1/4 inches of steel and even then they are spotty with my 50BMG only managing to do it about 4 times out of 25-30 shots and my 300WinMag only doing it once in 20 shots.


I've played with true AP and have enough demilled components put away to assure I can continue to play with them. M855 and the SS109 bullet is miserable by comparison, would rather have M193 on any given day of the week rather than spend a premium for the M855.


The proposed crap about defining limitations as they apply to a rounds ability to pierce soft body armor will be the death nail for all high velocity center fire cartridges. When most people hear "armor piercing" they think "cop killer" bullet and something that punches through soft body armor. If those definitions slip through it won't matter if a bullet is lead core, steel core, or made of recycled Nerf balls, such legislation will round us all up as criminals with cop killer armor piercing ammo.

Link Posted: 9/5/2005 7:11:34 PM EDT
if iam reading this right it has all ready been squashed.............

Urge Passage Of S. 397 In U.S. House
& Info on amendments

As you know, the U.S. Senate recently passed S. 397--the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act"--by a strong bipartisan vote of 65-31! This action represents a great victory and a vitally important first step toward ending the anti-gun lobby's shameless attempts to bankrupt the firearm industry through reckless, predatory lawsuits. It also represents a crucial step forward for law-abiding firearm manufacturers, retailers and owners in this country.

As we reported last week, there has been some discussion of late concerning two amendments to S. 397. The first, by Senator Herb Kohl (D-Wisc.), requires federally licensed dealers to provide a "secure gun storage or safety device" with the sale/transfer of every handgun (it does not apply to long guns). The measure, which passed by a vote of 70-30, does not require gun owners to use the device, does not apply to private transfers, and does not create any new civil liability for gun owners who choose not to use these storage devices. Virtually all new handguns today are sold with some type of secure storage or safety device. The amendment has no significant impact on current law.

The second measure--an amendment by Senator Larry Craig (R-Idaho)--was passed by an overwhelming margin of 87-11, and was offered this year (as it was in 2004) in a successful attempt to defeat Senator Edward Kennedy's "armor piercing" ammunition amendment that would have banned all centerfire rifle ammunition. By providing an alternative to Senator Kennedy's amendment, pro-gun senators were able to marshal the votes to defeat the Kennedy amendment.

The amendment only restates the existing prohibition on manufacture, or on sale by manufacturers, of "armor piercing ammunition," except for government use, for export, or for use in testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. This law has been in effect for nearly two decades. ...

Read the whole story at NRA-ILA.

Posted Thu Aug 18 08:28:51 CDT 2005

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:22:09 AM EDT
It was squashed handily if you are talking about the 'Kennedy Amendment'.

Even Patrick Leahy voted against it.

CRC
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:41:54 AM EDT
this bill is what this topic was about right? or am i missing something?
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 7:56:34 AM EDT
I think the author of this thread thought there was a bill to specifically ban M855.

There isn't.

CRC
Top Top