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Posted: 10/18/2004 1:35:01 PM EST
I have a bushy M4A3 rifle that I will be using on the job. It has the factory front iron sight on the upper and I have an ARMS 40 rear sight. I am trying to figure out exactly what optics to go with for this weapon. I have thought about the trijicon line and would love the ta31 "doughnut of death" but the price seems a little steep for my budget right now....I have also looked at the eotech 551- 552 but am kinda up in the air about this optic,
the weapon will be kept in the trunk of my patrol car until I can afford to get a dash mount for it so it may get banged around a little ......also I work mainly night shift.....someone help me make a decision!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 1:47:59 PM EST
I've seen the eotech on many patrol rifles.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:37:50 PM EST
Aimpoint, Comp ACOG, or full size ACOG.

I guess if you just had to, an Eotech would work also.

Ray
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 2:44:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:20:47 PM EST
I like the fact that with the EOTech you can aquire your target quickly and keep your other eye on other possible threats....this would come in handy when clearing buildings. It seems to me that the other optics mentioned would be more like using a regular scope where you would have to close your oposite eye.
where would a trijicon tri power stand and how do they rate compared to the eotech and others?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:27:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By USMCSKI:
I like the fact that with the EOTech you can aquire your target quickly and keep your other eye on other possible threats....this would come in handy when clearing buildings. It seems to me that the other optics mentioned would be more like using a regular scope where you would have to close your oposite eye.
where would a trijicon tri power stand and how do they rate compared to the eotech and others?



Not too familiar with the Aimpoint or the ACOG huh?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:31:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/18/2004 3:32:20 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:31:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 3:41:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Id take an Aimpoint OR an Eotech over a Tripower any day.



Tagged. Quote kept for posterity.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:35:41 PM EST

Not too familiar with the Aimpoint or the ACOG huh?


Actually...no I am not!
I have never seen one in person...just on here and other web sites......thats why I am asking these questions.

I guess I should ask....what is the best optic for the job I described above for around $400?
Are trijicons always this expensive or is it because there is such a high demand for them due to things going on overseas?
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 4:39:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By USMCSKI:

Not too familiar with the Aimpoint or the ACOG huh?


Actually...no I am not!
I have never seen one in person...just on here and other web sites......thats why I am asking these questions.

I guess I should ask....what is the best optic for the job I described above for around $400?
Are trijicons always this expensive or is it because there is such a high demand for them due to things going on overseas?



Trijicons are always that expensive.

There are deals to be had for Aimpoints with mounts for approx $450 on the equipment exchange on this site.

I believe that the Eotech comes with a mount of sorts and can be had for less than $400.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:14:36 PM EST
I would agree with norman74. If the price is no concern, then get the ACOG. If you want the 1moa dot, then get the eotech. And if you want the 4moa dot, then get the aimpoint. All are great sights. All are to be had. It boils down to what suits your fancy.
Link Posted: 10/18/2004 8:34:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By 556_Chowder:
I would agree with norman74. If the price is no concern, then get the ACOG. If you want the 1moa dot, then get the eotech. And if you want the 4moa dot, then get the aimpoint. All are great sights. All are to be had. It boils down to what suits your fancy.



+1
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 6:38:14 AM EST
For law enforcement I think the EOtech or Aimpoint are the way to go. ACOGs are great scopes; but their one real weakness is in varied lighting where you have a mix of lit and dark areas. In my experience, these are extremely common in urban and built up areas and also not unusual for law enforcement (dark night with a suspect illuminated by headlights maybe?).

The ACOG will work in these areas; but it won't have good contrast like the EOtech or Aimpoint. Also, since good contrast is what lets you use the magnified ACOG like a red-dot up close, you will be slower than you would with the EOtech or Aimpoint. Up close in an LE scenario where you are already forced to be reactive is the wrong place to be opting for slower.

The two areas the ACOG beats the reflex-style sights at are target identification and longer distance shooting (for me about 50yds is where the ACOG starts to clearly dominate the other sights). If you think you will see more longer ranged engagements or have a need to identify a target (what is in the suspects hands?) then maybe an ACOG is an option (assuming your department is OK with the debateable doctrine of pointing a rifle at someone to see what is in their hands). In almost every other case, I think the Aimpoint or EOtech would serve better.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 8:47:48 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:05:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 9:06:16 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:19:46 AM EST
Normally if you keep your carbine in the trunk, the red dot is turned off right? If you are going to leave it on all the time then the Aimpoint is definitely the way to go.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:26:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Im convinced that the Aimpoint is the best general purpose optic for the majority of LE and military applications based on battery life and usability of the controls alone.



+1 for GENERAL PURPOSE OPTIC
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 9:38:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:42:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/19/2004 10:46:04 AM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]

Originally Posted By CSGunWorkscom:
What I’m trying to say is if you have you set your EoTech or Aimpoint at a dark environment and you go to a bright environment it is to low for me. If I have it set up for a bright light it is too bright for low light. The Trijion Compacts ACOGS you do not have to adjust dark environments they glow. In very bright light environments the turn gray black.



The problem I run into with the ACOGs is that while they do automatically adjust brightness in universally dark or universally bright environments, that same thing causes problems when you have mixed environments (target is in dark area, you are in bright/ target is in bright area, you are in dark).

The worst problem I see is when the target is brightly lit and it is darker where the shooter is (but not completely dark). In this scenario, the reticle is lit just enough that it contrasts poorly against the brighter background. The ACOG is still usable in this scenario and is still faster than irons IMO; but in a household ranges environment I am slower than I would be with an Aimpoint or an EOtech because it is difficult to use BAC if you don't have good contrast and using an ACOG without BAC at close range is just as fast as using any other 3.5x scope indoors would be.

That may not be as much of an issue with the lower mag compacts. I don't have a great deal of experience with them.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:47:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Not flaming, but that has not been my experience AT ALL. Exactly the opposite in fact. Even more so if the operator of the Aimpoint or Eotech is experienced enough to keep his optic adjusted to the lighting environment its going to be working in.



My experience mirrors Lumpy (big surprise).

Which is why my primary carbine optic is now my EOTech instead of my TA50-2.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 10:51:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By CSGunWorkscom:
...In very bright light environments the turn gray black. ....


Mike that is the problem.

When they are lit or when they are black they work great. When they are illuminated 'just right' against a target of 'just the right color' you lose the reticule completely.

NO BAC at all, no reticule, you have to go to irons or estimate where in the FOV the reticule should be.

It doesn't happen often but I've found it does happen at CQB distances with lights in the 65 lumen range at night. It sucks when it happens.

On the other hand my glowing red EOTech reticle has never washed out.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:49:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
When they are lit or when they are black they work great. When they are illuminated 'just right' against a target of 'just the right color' you lose the reticule completely.



Forest, the TA50-2 is the amber reticle isn't it? I think that may play a part in the problem as I've never lost a red reticle completely but have seen the same thing you describe happen on a TA01NSN around dusk.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 12:55:14 PM EST
BR it is the Amber reticule.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 1:57:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Im convinced that the Aimpoint is the best general purpose optic for the majority of LE and military applications based on battery life and usability of the controls alone.



Once again Lumpy has boiled it all down to the basics!
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:16:25 PM EST
Aimpoint
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:36:40 PM EST
Aimpoint or EoTech, whichever strikes your fancy. Personally I liked the controls on the Aimpoint better (twist knobs vs push buttons), but I really preferred the reticle of the EoTech, so I bought the EoTech.

Remember also its intended uses. For LE work, particularly as a patrol rifle, the chances of using it in a shooting beyond 100 or even 50 yards are very tiny, so the magnification benefits of the ACOG are pretty much moot. The Aimpoint and EoTech are both blindingly fast up close where it's down and dirty, where you're more likely to have to take care of business.

Shop around, and be safe out there.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 2:51:32 PM EST
Just out of curiosity , why isnt the trijicon tripower a viable choice?
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 3:08:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By ShortyForty:
Just out of curiosity , why isnt the trijicon tripower a viable choice?



There seems to be a bit of confusion as to whether or not they have worked out the bugs or not.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 4:16:24 PM EST
My opinion also lies with the aimpoint for a patrol rifle......in fact here is mine :D



Not the best pic, got its uncompleted brothers with it.
Link Posted: 10/19/2004 7:10:22 PM EST
USMCSKI

Being ex-LEO I can understand your question. Don't worry bout the guys, this is just their way of doing things.

You have to ask yourself what the role of the gun will be.

IMHO the role of a patrol carbine is that of an intermediate rifle, 200-250yds MAX. Other than that close in stuff which requires rapid target aquisition (sp) is what you you will need, something in the area of 50-100yds. With that said you have a choice for a good quality combat optic, the Aimpoint or the Eo-tech.

I currently have an M2 aimpoint, and a Bushnell Holosight (civy version of the eotech). Frankly I prefer the Aimpoint over the eotech. I say this for a few reasons.

1. battery life, the M2 battery life is fantastic now! Now you don't have to worry about accidently jarring the optic and activating it and loosing the battery in between call outs.
2. mounting options, there are many many options for mounting the optic. (2 for the eotech)
3. ergonomics, the Aimpoint is turned on via a knob, while the eotech requires the buttons (adjusting the rheostat is not as easy as on an Aimpoint.
4. the reticle, as a personal preference I don't care for the circle dot of the eotech, but that is just a preference. YMMV

I gotta say I'm happy that there is a cop that is willing to let loose of some $$. The LEOs are worse than the project dewellers we have around here. Not only do they expect something for free, when they do eventually buy it they want it absurdly cheap.

I wouldn't mess with the trijicon ACOG due to the legal issues, you don't want to try to be making precision shots with the donut of death, leave that to the sniper team. HTH.

Mitch
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:19:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By TNRonin:
USMCSKI

I wouldn't mess with the trijicon ACOG due to the legal issues, you don't want to try to be making precision shots with the donut of death, leave that to the sniper team. HTH.

Mitch



HUH???? What legal issues? Its certainly not illegal to use a scope. And trying to be precise with your shots shouldn't incur any liability.

That being said, my patrol rifle wears an Aimpoint. Both eyes open. Tough, accurate, dependable. Nothing against an Eotech, since I've never owned one.


.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:17:36 AM EST
Anyone in NC that has both? I would like to check them both out but dont know of anywhere that I can do that.
How about some of you guys mail me one of each for "testing".......(dont I wish!!!)
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:32:19 AM EST
Legal issues like explaining to a jury in a civil suit for your victim whom you shot when trying to shoot the BG from a distance and how you took a shot that you should have left to people with a PRECISION rifle. Not legal in the criminal sense. Just thinking liabilities.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:46:18 AM EST
Get an Eotech. And put the damn thing in a case if it's going to be in your trunk!
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