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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/21/2004 10:34:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:37:17 PM EST
CAR with 14.5 inch barrel?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:53:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 10:55:59 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:00:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:03:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:05:35 PM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:04:31 PM EST
Probably logical, thats where the bayonet fits.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 11:26:56 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:49:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 12:49:59 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:38:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 2:38:42 AM EST by OHMR95B]
Lumpy, I would have to agree and slightly disagree with you. You are correct on the 14.5in pencil barrels, the USAF used them pretty heavily before the M4, but I am pretty sure I saw some parts guns that the guys over here at Rickenbacker ANGBin the 19th SFGRP(ABN) had with 16in pencil barrels too, ala the SP1 carbine that they had put together out of shot-out XMs. Not a certainty, but a possibility.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:13:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
www.gun-world.net/USA/M16/CAR/ro727.jpg



Lump,

I'm nearly positive that the carbine pictured is a rubber duck.



or maybe it's from the Bushmaster contract





I KNOW it is...but try finding a pic of a 720

LOL



Lumpy, i have always understood that the M720 was the M4 carbine with A2 upper, 3 round burst and the stepped down barrel?

M727 being the full-auto version of the above


Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:44:23 AM EST
Check out this book...special warfare special weapons..it has and I dont have the book with me I beleive its a 720 carbine.It has the M4 barrel A1 sights but with the brass deflector and a beta mag in it.I also have books that show SEALs using M4 fixed handle uppers on A1 full auto lowers.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:14:04 AM EST
I've seen those A1 CAR's with the 14.5" pencil barrels with both the collapsable stock and even a variation with an A1 fixed buttstock.

If I remember correctly, there was a picture of the fixed A1 stock variant in Military Small Arms Of The 20th Century. I don't remember what edition, but the one I saw was probably 15 years old or more.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:07:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By model927:
Check out this book...special warfare special weapons..it has and I dont have the book with me I beleive its a 720 carbine.It has the M4 barrel A1 sights but with the brass deflector and a beta mag in it.I also have books that show SEALs using M4 fixed handle uppers on A1 full auto lowers.



The carbine with the A1 upper and M4 barrel in the book in question is the Colt M723, page 164.

Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:21:27 AM EST
I found the following model numbers whose description matches "carbine":

649 S.M.G. Sumachine gun. For US Air Force, with 14" (356 mm) barrel and 1 in 12" (1 in 305 mm) rifling. Property of US Gov't
GAU-5/A/A Cal 5.56mm
0000000
651 M16A1 carbine. Export model with 14.5" (368 mm) barrel and full size stock.
652 M16A1 carbine. Export model with 14.5" (368 mm) barrel and full size stock, but without forward assist.
653 M16A1 carbine. Export model with 14.5" (368 mm) barrel and sliding stock.
720 M4 carbine. Originally known as M16A2 carbine, with 14.5" (370 mm) barrel.
723 M16A2 carbine. Produced for United Arab Emirates and US Army Delta Force. With A16A1 rear sight, 14.5" (370 mm) barrel and full automatic fire capability.
725 M16A2 carbine. Canadian version of M16A2 carbine known as C8 with M16A1 rear sight and M16A2 barrel. License produced by Diemaco.
725A M16A2 carbine. Export version of the M16A2 carbine produced by Colt for United Arab Emirates with M16A1 barrel profile.
725B M16A2 carbine. Export version of M16A2 carbine with M16A2 barrel.
727 M16A2 carbine. Carbine with full automatic fire feature produced for (among others) the US Navy. With 14.5" (370 mm) barrel.
727 M4A1 carbine. Originally known as M16A3 carbine. Similar to Model 727 but with flat top rail under carrying handle. Fully automatic. In production for Joint DoD Special Forces.

I am also aware of the GAU-5/P carbines, which are the GAU-5/A/A's upgraded by armorers with the M4's 14.5" barrel.


Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
www.gun-world.net/USA/M16/CAR/ro727.jpg



Lump,

I'm nearly positive that the carbine pictured is a rubber duck.



Tweak, I assume "rubber duck" means a molded-rubber stunt-gun. That looks like one of the Autoweapons.com product pictures. If the rifle barrel appears "bent" I think it's because of the lens distortion of such a close-range picture.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 7:48:38 AM EST
Just want to update something here re:727. I'm with a unit that has the M4A1. We might be losing these for the "727." I understand the info provided says they are one and the same; however, the ones we are supposed to get will not have the third position for the selector. Semi only. Just to let you guys know there are/will be military rifles out there without the "fun" switch.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 8:40:58 AM EST
Here is a very recent picture of a "rubber duck" during training.

Link Posted: 10/22/2004 9:57:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 10:59:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 11:02:37 AM EST by Stottman]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The M4 wasnt adopted until 1994.

You probably saw Colt Model 653s, otherwise known as M16A1 carbines - 14.5" pencil barrels

www.thesupplybunker.net/pictures/weapons/m16a1_carbine_2.JPG

At no point has the military had a 16" standard M16 carbine. Thats strictly a civilian variant.



The M4 was still a COTS (commercial of the shelf ) purchase before 94.

There was also limited numbers of the M16A2 carbine- model 725A (still refered to as the CAR15 by GIs) in use by the Rangers, and others during the GWI time period. They were basically a Colt 6920 but with a normal 14.5" barrel. There is a reason that Colt sold it as the "Gov't" model carbine.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 11:53:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:57:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 1:01:47 PM EST by SuperChicken]
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 1:19:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By SuperChicken:
Werent there some Recon/Recce carbines built for the NSW guys a while ago?




Originally posted by Lumpy196:
Until I see a pic of a Gov't gun with a 16" barrel on it, I cant be convinced they are in ANY branches inventory.




SuperChicken----><----Lumpy196
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 2:55:40 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 3:00:42 PM EST by Colt-653]
Colt M16A1 carbine NSN 6D1005-01-029-3866 also called the GAU-5/P in the USAF




Most of the USAF units were earlier GAU-5/A and GAU-5A/A's that had the earlier 10.5” and 11.5” barrels replaced with 14.5” 1/12 barrels during the late 1970’s/early 1980s’. Most of these barrels have been replaced with 14.5” 1/7 barrels. The USAF also made a special 1 time purchase of M16A1 carbines NSN 1005-01-042-9820 circa 1982. Colt inadvertently supplied several 1/12 16” barrels from there civilian line when supplying PIP kits to the USAF in the early 1980’s so on occasion you might see pic of GAU-5/P with a 16” barrel. There were several of them at Travis, AFB circa 1987/88

The Navy also made a special purchase of the M16A1 carbine. NSN 1005-01-029-3866 for NSW.


The Colt M16A2 with C7 upper and either lightweight 14.5” or M4 profile 14.5” barrels was also purchased in limited quantities: NSN OA1005-LL-L99-5287


The Colt M16A2 carbine model 720/727 was also purchased in limited quantities by the USN, USMC and USA. The early units supplied had 14.5” lightweight barrels while the later units had 14.5” M4 profile barrels




There were also a few GUA-5/A, GUA-5A/A and XM177E2’s still being used in DSW1. There’s a picture in a Time magazine article showing a member of the security detail assigned to General Schwarzkopf , carrying an XM177E2.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:39:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The M4 wasnt adopted until 1994.



Hate to say it, but the M4 was in use as far back as 1989. I know because my platoon leader, platoon sergeant and the RTOs carried them. Maybe not general issue weapons throught the Army, but I know all the Ranger Battalions had them. Granted we moslty had M16A2s, but about 5-10% were the M4 with fixed carring handle. And no they were not 3 shot burst, we would use the m4 to burn up ammo instead of humping it back.

Yes there were a few carbines without the stepped barrels (14.5"), these were pretty worn out and generally had aluminum butstocks.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 3:47:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2004 3:48:32 PM EST by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By SuperChicken:
Werent there some Recon/Recce carbines built for the NSW guys a while ago?




Yes, the Recon/Recce carbines use a 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 4:28:58 PM EST
A friend of mine that was 101st Airborne said that they had some M4's that had 14.5" and 16" barrels.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 5:06:06 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 6:19:32 PM EST
According to the table of Military and Law Enforcement Models in Black Rifle II, the RO720 is the XM4 carbine. It had a 14.5" M16A2 barrel, not a M4 barrel. This would mean the barrel would be light under the handguards and heavy in front of the front sight block without any stepcut for the M203. The Black Rifle II lists two RO727s. One is a M16A2 carbine for the United Arab Emirates with a 14.5" barrel HBAR. The other has a 14.5" M4 barrel. Both of them are full-auto and have A1-style upper receivers with a shell deflector. The A2-style M4 seems to be the RO779. 14.5" M4 barrel, three-round burst, extended feed ramps and heavy buffer. The full-auto version is the RO777. According to page 268, the M4 is the RO920 and the M4A1 is the RO921.

Does anyone have an actual picture of the so-called NSW Recon/Recce rifle?
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 1:00:42 AM EST

My brother's sister's cousin stories dont count


I'll try and talk to him sometime today. He works for the county and is on days. I'll try and call him when I get up and ask him again.
Link Posted: 10/23/2004 3:35:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The Recce carbine is a different issue entirely. Its a custom made gun for ONE very specific unit with a match barrel.




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