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Posted: 9/5/2013 5:27:37 PM EDT
I've had this issue with this same gun before but thought it was fixed.  Not so apparently.  Went to the range today and was having issues with the trigger not resetting when shooting suppressed.

It's a 10.5" Noveske with a M4-2K and a Geissele S3G.  Without the suppressor the gun runs fine.  Once I attached the M4-2K it will occasionally fire fine, eject, and chamber another round but the trigger won't be reset.  I have to pull the charging handle back just enough to reset the trigger and then it'll fire again.  This happened probably 3 or 4 times out of 100 rounds.

I thought maybe the gun was short stroking or something (not sure how it'd be short stroking but picking up a new round) so I loaded up a mag with 1 round and fired; it cycled and locked back just fine.  

I'm thinking this is just something I'm doing wrong; poor trigger control with the S3G.  I say this because I tried experimenting with how I was squeezing the trigger and if I sort of lightly pulled, just enough pressure to fire, but still following through, I'd get the above issue.  If I pulled the trigger with some authority I never had the problem.

So if it's just me, what's happening mechanically that the firearm completely cycles but the trigger isn't reset?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 5:54:00 PM EDT
Not enough gas or too much gas?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:01:39 PM EDT
IIRC my Geissele trigger (not a SG3) came with instructions on how to adjust. Could it be the sear engagement is a little out of adjustment?

 I have no idea why it would be different when you use a supressor though.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 6:12:45 PM EDT
My understanding is that the suppressor will generate more pressure.  That is why some 300blk out uppers will short stroke with sub ammo in it.

What weight buffer are you using?  What ammo are you using.

I run my 10.3" SBR without a suppressor with all kinds of ammo, but I also use a H buffer (I think, I need to see if I went with a H2 recently).  I used a DD barrel and an adjustable gas block with the adjustment almost wide open.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 7:22:39 PM EDT
Presently I'm using a H3.  Before when I was having issues I tried a H and H2.  The H3 seemed to do the best with and without the suppressor.  Today I was shooting Federal M193 brown box.  It just seems odd that it appears to cycle fine but the trigger isn't reset.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 9:32:29 PM EDT
If it is in fact ejecting the spent case and loading another round but the hammer is not resetting, I would take the FCG out and clean it.  Maybe the disconnector is not catching the hammer and the hammer is riding the carrier back in.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 9:39:47 PM EDT
I'd call Geiselle and rule out the trigger. Maybe choose to go with the SSA or SSA-E?
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 9:55:52 PM EDT
I think I flip flopped what was going on.

Still sounds like the hammer is not resetting and that would make me want to check the FCG.  If it's just fine without the suppressor then maybe the cycle rate is too quick.  What buffer spring are you using?  You might want to consider a SpringCo Red spring or a Noveske switch block or other adjustable gas block.
Link Posted: 9/5/2013 10:41:16 PM EDT
It's the trigger, had the exact same problem with the same trigger a few weeks ago.

I called the shop last week, and they sent me one towards the max end of the sear engagement and I'm using the gold spring.

I'll shoot it tomorrow and report back.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 8:30:43 AM EDT
With the suppressor mounted you are extremely overgassed
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 9:16:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 10:04:42 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Gas has nothing to do with this; the carrier only has to move an inch or so to reset the hammer.  You've got a trigger issue.  If the carrier is moving enough to eject the spent and chamber a new round, you've got PLENTY of travel to reset the hammer.
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This.....

When you are saying resetting are you holding the trigger during the cycle and then riding forward till the trigger clicks from disconnect back to sear and it is not disconnecting or the hammer is following the bolt home?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 10:15:26 AM EDT
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Quoted:


This.....

When you are saying resetting are you holding the trigger during the cycle and then riding forward till the trigger clicks from disconnect back to sear and it is not disconnecting or the hammer is following the bolt home?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Gas has nothing to do with this; the carrier only has to move an inch or so to reset the hammer.  You've got a trigger issue.  If the carrier is moving enough to eject the spent and chamber a new round, you've got PLENTY of travel to reset the hammer.


This.....

When you are saying resetting are you holding the trigger during the cycle and then riding forward till the trigger clicks from disconnect back to sear and it is not disconnecting or the hammer is following the bolt home?


His hammer is following home, I know what he is experiencing because the exact same thing happened to me with the same  trigger in the same suppressed application last week..

Geissele sent me a replacement with more sear engagement, I'm testing it this afternoon to see if it fixed it.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 11:17:47 AM EDT
Why are people suggesting this has anything to do with over/undergassing? This is an issue with the fire control group. OP, contact GA and they'll get you squared away. Keep us updated.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 11:37:17 AM EDT
Quoted:
I've had this issue with this same gun before but thought it was fixed.  Not so apparently.  Went to the range today and was having issues with the trigger not resetting when shooting suppressed.

It's a 10.5" Noveske with a M4-2K and a Geissele S3G.  Without the suppressor the gun runs fine.  Once I attached the M4-2K it will occasionally fire fine, eject, and chamber another round but the trigger won't be reset.  I have to pull the charging handle back just enough to reset the trigger and then it'll fire again.  This happened probably 3 or 4 times out of 100 rounds.

I thought maybe the gun was short stroking or something (not sure how it'd be short stroking but picking up a new round) so I loaded up a mag with 1 round and fired; it cycled and locked back just fine.  

I'm thinking this is just something I'm doing wrong; poor trigger control with the S3G.  I say this because I tried experimenting with how I was squeezing the trigger and if I sort of lightly pulled, just enough pressure to fire, but still following through, I'd get the above issue.  If I pulled the trigger with some authority I never had the problem.

So if it's just me, what's happening mechanically that the firearm completely cycles but the trigger isn't reset?
View Quote


Upgrade to one of their gold trigger springs if you haven't done so already. The S3G is very sensitive to recoil and doubling or hammer follow is not uncommon, so following through with shots is important with such a light setup..
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 11:43:13 AM EDT
Update: I just put 90 rounds through mine, only failed to reset on first shot and ran fine afterwards.  Much better than every 3-4 shots before.

I had a couple issues with it not locking back on empty mags, I put an h3/springco blue in before shooting to see if that helped any because this gun is a touch overgassed. I swapped it with a stock spring/h2 and ill see if that works and how the gun handles over the next several hundred rounds this weekend.

So far the trigger swap is a vast improvement.

This is a DD MK18 10.3 upper pistol build btw.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 11:57:58 AM EDT
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Quoted:
Update: I just put 90 rounds through mine, only failed to reset on first shot and ran fine afterwards.  Much better than every 3-4 shots before.

I had a couple issues with it not locking back on empty mags, I put an h3/springco blue in before shooting to see if that helped any because this gun is a touch overgassed. I swapped it with a stock spring/h2 and ill see if that works and how the gun handles over the next several hundred rounds this weekend.

So far the trigger swap is a vast improvement.

This is a DD MK18 10.3 upper pistol build btw.
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It did fail to reset on the first shot?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 12:10:53 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Upgrade to one of their gold trigger springs if you haven't done so already. The S3G is very sensitive to recoil and doubling or hammer follow is not uncommon, so following through with shots is important with such a light setup..
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've had this issue with this same gun before but thought it was fixed.  Not so apparently.  Went to the range today and was having issues with the trigger not resetting when shooting suppressed.

It's a 10.5" Noveske with a M4-2K and a Geissele S3G.  Without the suppressor the gun runs fine.  Once I attached the M4-2K it will occasionally fire fine, eject, and chamber another round but the trigger won't be reset.  I have to pull the charging handle back just enough to reset the trigger and then it'll fire again.  This happened probably 3 or 4 times out of 100 rounds.

I thought maybe the gun was short stroking or something (not sure how it'd be short stroking but picking up a new round) so I loaded up a mag with 1 round and fired; it cycled and locked back just fine.  

I'm thinking this is just something I'm doing wrong; poor trigger control with the S3G.  I say this because I tried experimenting with how I was squeezing the trigger and if I sort of lightly pulled, just enough pressure to fire, but still following through, I'd get the above issue.  If I pulled the trigger with some authority I never had the problem.

So if it's just me, what's happening mechanically that the firearm completely cycles but the trigger isn't reset?


Upgrade to one of their gold trigger springs if you haven't done so already. The S3G is very sensitive to recoil and doubling or hammer follow is not uncommon, so following through with shots is important with such a light setup..


--

If it only happens when it is suppressed, but it's not over-gassing, then what else happens besides higher pressure during suppressed? More recoil?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 12:11:12 PM EDT
Yes, first shot only.  Much better than every 3-4 before.

The only difference is I slowly squeezed the first shot, compared to a solid pull for he rest. It may have moved just enough to not engage.

I'm going to make some adjustments and put another several hundred rounds through it this weekend.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 12:36:25 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Yes, first shot only.  Much better than every 3-4 before.

The only difference is I slowly squeezed the first shot, compared to a solid pull for he rest. It may have moved just enough to not engage.

I'm going to make some adjustments and put another several hundred rounds through it this weekend.
View Quote


Is it actually failing to reset or is it hammer follow?
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 1:26:31 PM EDT
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Quoted:


Is it actually failing to reset or is it hammer follow?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Yes, first shot only.  Much better than every 3-4 before.

The only difference is I slowly squeezed the first shot, compared to a solid pull for he rest. It may have moved just enough to not engage.

I'm going to make some adjustments and put another several hundred rounds through it this weekend.


Is it actually failing to reset or is it hammer follow?


Hammer follow, like in my first post. Sorry, I misspoke.

I put another 30 rounds through it with the different spring and buffer, no problems now. I'll know for sure after another 3-400 this weekend.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 5:16:43 PM EDT
Well it's good to know that it's not just me; thanks for reporting in with your own findings eesmith.  Is your problem also only while running a can or are you not using one at all?

I'm hesitant to call Geissele because, as I said in the OP, I'm revisiting this issue and the first time I did call Geissele and got a new trigger.  The first S3G I was using was an older one, before they were including the gold spring.  I'm using the gold spring on the replacement they sent me now.  This problem is miles better than my first go around; I was having this problem both suppressed and unsuppressed and much more frequently (as well as the doubling the trigger is somewhat known for).

I really like my setup and I love the S3G but not, obviously, at the cost of reliability in my firearm.  So I'm hoping I can figure something out; I might have to just put another trigger in this setup and move the S3G to something else without a suppressor.

ETA:  And yes, hammer follow would be the more correct description of the issue.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 5:47:28 PM EDT
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Quoted:
If it is in fact ejecting the spent case and loading another round but the hammer is not resetting, I would take the FCG out and clean it.  Maybe the disconnector is not catching the hammer and the hammer is riding the carrier back in.
View Quote


This.

Remove the lower then pull and hold the trigger, then cock the hammer.
Slowly release the trigger and see if the hammer falls when the disconnector releases the hammer, instead of the hammer engaging the trigger sear like it's supposed to.

I had this issue with a lower I put together with assorted parts. It would double when I shot it, but not my friend... turns out he would just release the trigger while I slowly let it reset.

I ground about .010" off the bottom of the tang on the front of the disconnector so that it would stay engaged a little longer.

Of course you can't do this with a Geissele; sounds like a warranty issue.

Joe
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 5:54:39 PM EDT
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Quoted:
Well it's good to know that it's not just me; thanks for reporting in with your own findings eesmith.  Is your problem also only while running a can or are you not using one at all?

I'm hesitant to call Geissele because, as I said in the OP, I'm revisiting this issue and the first time I did call Geissele and got a new trigger.  The first S3G I was using was an older one, before they were including the gold spring.  I'm using the gold spring on the replacement they sent me now.  This problem is miles better than my first go around; I was having this problem both suppressed and unsuppressed and much more frequently (as well as the doubling the trigger is somewhat known for).

I really like my setup and I love the S3G but not, obviously, at the cost of reliability in my firearm.  So I'm hoping I can figure something out; I might have to just put another trigger in this setup and move the S3G to something else without a suppressor.

ETA:  And yes, hammer follow would be the more correct description of the issue.
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Only with a can.

So far with the new trigger it's only happened once on the first shot, I've put 120 rounds through it since with no trouble.

I'll put a few hundred more downrange this weekend and report back.
Link Posted: 9/6/2013 7:11:17 PM EDT
I'll give that a shot scudzuki.  Just seems odd that it would happen on both of my S3G's although if it was an engineering problem you'd think we'd hear about this issue more.


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Quoted:

Only with a can.

So far with the new trigger it's only happened once on the first shot, I've put 120 rounds through it since with no trouble.

I'll put a few hundred more downrange this weekend and report back.
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Yup that's exactly the same as me then; it would happen on the first shot except for once.  Please do report back though is this something that would fix itself with a higher round count?
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 4:17:49 PM EDT
Well just to update, in case others in future searches have the same problem, I posted about this in the Geissele forum (forgot we had one ) and the behavior is to be expected with the S3G it sounds like.  Just pull the trigger with some authority.

I did take the gun out to the range yesterday and had time to put 100rds through it and was conscientious about not feathering the trigger.  I didn't have the hammer follow issue once.  The first time I was re-zeroing my iron sights so I was shooting from a bench and focusing on pulling the trigger just enough for the shot to break.  This time I was just doing some close in drills from the shoulder.  

I do wonder how this trigger would work in a 3-Gun match where you're shooting from weird/awkward positions where you can't always have the gun firmly planted against your shoulder though...

I guess I'll go with the SSA or ACT or something for a home defense firearm.
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 4:34:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/10/2013 4:48:00 PM EDT
I'll just use it as an excuse to invest in another G trigger.
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