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Posted: 8/30/2008 6:37:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/17/2008 9:33:26 AM EDT by RFmissile]
I am a little dissapointed in my Sun Devil lower receiver. The trigger and hammer pin holes are oversized.

Since I live close, I went down to Sun Devil and the owner tried to help. He did offer to exchange mine for a Blem but the pin holes were just as loose. He couldn't locate his .157" machinist pin to measure my receiver. We tried a few other receivers but the pins were just as loose.

I have the RRA 2 stg trigger with the oversized pins. He confirmed as I had already knew because I measured them myself, that the RRA pins were indeed oversized over the standard pins, yet they were still extremely loose in my receiver.

The owner claims that his receivers are "IN SPEC!" I am not arguing that. They may be in spec but they are at the high limit of the spec.

This is my A2 Service rifle for competitions, so I expect the best of the best for fit. I want every advantage I can get because I will be shooting out to 600 yds. That is why i purchased the Sun Devil because it has the tension screw that goes against the rear pin clevis to tighten up upper and lower receiver. This is what the Sun Devil does very well.

My Boys and I have 3 other AR's but they have MEGA upper and lowers and the RRA oversized pins are very, very snug in them (they must be on the low end of the spec)!

So being the way that I am and not settling for something on the high-end of the spec (personally I say the holes are out of spec) and having the pins extremely loose I set out to tighten up my trigger pin, so I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.

Bottom line for me, I will not buy another Sun Devil receiver!
Here are pics:



Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:42:14 AM EDT
I've never heard of them being out of spec before. Anyone else have a problem with Sun Devil lowers? I was thinking of picking one up.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:46:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 6:46:48 AM EDT by spider]
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:49:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


Are you retarded or just can't read?

He went down to Sun Devil in Person and dealt with the Owner directly.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:49:42 AM EDT
Read the post. He went TO Sun Devil.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:50:12 AM EDT
Did you read his post at all? Third sentence in the post maybe?
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:50:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


I guess you failed to read the part where the op stated that he went to their shop.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:58:38 AM EDT
I have a Arizona Armory lower that is made by sundevil and the trigger pins are just fine, did you take him up on the offer and swap out the lower?
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:58:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 6:59:34 AM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:59:18 AM EDT

The owner claims that his receivers are "IN SPEC!" I am not arguing that. They may be in spec but they are at the high limit of the spec.


Is it or is it not in spec?  Until you can prove otherwise you have no basis to complain.  Do you expect them to throw away perfectly acceptable receivers because you want a tighter fit?  Do they advertise that they have tighter tolerances than required?  I think you are expecting too much, maybe somebody could custom make you a receiver with pin holes on the small end of the tolerance.

That said, I find it pretty odd that the manufacturer doesn't have a gage pin to verify whether or not their diameters are in spec.  

Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:03:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


I dealt with the owner directly. He tried to help me and I cannot fault him for that.
The problem is that he claims they are in spec. Okay, but they are high end of spec in my opinion if not marginally out of spec.

I work in a world of Specifications and I understand. When you give a manufacturing contractor a specification for a Mil-Spec parts, unfortunately they have the liberty to manufacture the part anywhere within that particular spec.

Mil-Spec parts as is the case with this receiver is that it has to manufactured so as to be compatible or be able to "fit" other manufacturers parts.

Our Mega receivers may also be Mil-Spec but they are on the low end of the spec!

As I stated in the title, it is my mistake on purchasing the Sun Devil lower and i generally don't make the same mistake twice.

I just came up with a not so pretty fix. But I don't really care what it looks like, I am more interested in a tight fit.  
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:11:50 AM EDT
That sucks and I feel your pain.

If this happens to anyone else...Remove the FCG. Take a 1/8" straight shaft punch and grind a low angle (blunt) point on the end of the punch. Put a single layer of masking tape on the side of the receiver as well as around the punch. Lay the receiver on a flat solid steel surface. Peen the hole from inside the receiver by inserting the punch from opposite hole viewing the operation from the top of the receiver. Repeat for the opposite hole. Reinstall the FCG.

Good Luck!
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:13:06 AM EDT
Why didn't you just swap it out??? maybe the new one would have been a little tighter. Did you guys try any other sundevil lowers while you were down there to see if they were tighter? also try another set of  trigger pins maybe they are the problem not the receiver...
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:15:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wespe:

The owner claims that his receivers are "IN SPEC!" I am not arguing that. They may be in spec but they are at the high limit of the spec.


Is it or is it not in spec?  Until you can prove otherwise you have no basis to complain.  Do you expect them to throw away perfectly acceptable receivers because you want a tighter fit?  Do they advertise that they have tighter tolerances than required?  I think you are expecting too much, maybe somebody could custom make you a receiver with pin holes on the small end of the tolerance.

That said, I find it pretty odd that the manufacturer doesn't have a gage pin to verify whether or not their diameters are in spec.  



The owner had a whole set of machinists precision sized measuring pins. Think of them as go-no-go pins. He claimed that the limits was .1565" He could not locate his .157" pin for a no-go measurement. Of course the .156" pin went in easy, so you tell me!

Their receivers may be perfectly acceptable to others as well as you, but it is not for me.

As for a custom receiver with holes on the small end, if you had read my original post, I already have some "Custom" receivers (3 of them) made by Mega.

The reason for me posting is to make the AR builders aware of my experience. You can take it with a grain of salt if yo want, I personally will not patronize Sun Devil if they  manufacture a part on the upper end of the spec.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:16:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 7:17:14 AM EDT by 80sgyrene]

Originally Posted By AZJames:
Why didn't you just swap it out??? maybe the new one would have been a little tighter. Did you guys try any other sundevil lowers while you were down there to see if they were tighter? also try another set of  trigger pins maybe they are the problem not the receiver...


Another reading comprehension problem, don't people read posts anymore before answering? The OP stated they tried other lowers.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:22:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AZJames:
Why didn't you just swap it out??? maybe the new one would have been a little tighter. Did you guys try any other sundevil lowers while you were down there to see if they were tighter? also try another set of  trigger pins maybe they are the problem not the receiver...


The OP says that he tried other receivers with the owner and all were loose!  Does anyone know how to read??  This is ridiculous!
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:23:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 80sgyrene:

Originally Posted By AZJames:
Why didn't you just swap it out??? maybe the new one would have been a little tighter. Did you guys try any other sundevil lowers while you were down there to see if they were tighter? also try another set of  trigger pins maybe they are the problem not the receiver...


Another reading comprehension problem, don't people read posts anymore before answering? The OP stated they tried other lowers.



Yes I did read it, my error. But I don't get why he did swap out the lower or ask for his money back I know I wouldn't want a jacked up lower.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:23:52 AM EDT
I also have a Arizona Armory lower (low SN) that is perfect and if anything was a litle tight .

Originally Posted By AZJames:
I have a Arizona Armory lower that is made by sundevil and the trigger pins are just fine, did you take him up on the offer and swap out the lower?
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:35:17 AM EDT
I have a Sun Devil lower that is the same way. The fixes are to go with oversize KNS pins or do what I did and install a Timney trigger. They have set screws to tighten things up inside.

Ya, for the money I was disappointed as well.

Phessor

Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:35:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GONIF:
I also have a Arizona Armory lower (low SN) that is perfect and if anything was a litle tight .

Originally Posted By AZJames:
I have a Arizona Armory lower that is made by sundevil and the trigger pins are just fine, did you take him up on the offer and swap out the lower?



Yeah I'll be picking up a few more AZ Armory lowers they are a very nice lower I also picked up the AZ Armory upper to match for my SBR build and I could not be more happy...
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:36:40 AM EDT

The owner had a whole set of machinists precision sized measuring pins. Think of them as go-no-go pins. He claimed that the limits was .1565" He could not locate his .157" pin for a no-go measurement. Of course the .156" pin went in easy, so you tell me!


If the high limit is .1565 using a .157 pin to verify is not correct.  Pin sets usually come in plus tolerance ( .0001-.0002 oversize ) or minus tolerance (.0001 - .0002 undersize) unless they a set such as Deltronics which are pretty much right on the money.  If he used a plus size .156 pin and it was loose chances are it is pretty close to the high.  If he had a .1565 Deltronic and it goes, it is oversize, a hole that is exactly .1565 and round will not accept a .1565 pin.  Pins still aren't the best way to check a hole as they can't fool you when there is an out of round condition or taper.  The best way to check the hole is a bore gage that will give you the exact size, roundness and taper.  Any machine shop that is worth their salt will have the proper tools to check the job, bottom line.  If they don't have the proper equipment to validate their work I would stay away.  I wish they could present their side of the story, I am really interested in whether or not they have the proper inspection equipment and know how.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 7:44:42 AM EDT
Huh...

I've built off 4 or 5 SD lowers and never encountered a problem...
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 8:06:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 8:17:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.


No, it is not professional, nor professional looking. Your sarcasm is well noted and understood. I was just showing you a field fix for my less than desirable loose trigger pin.

I cannot use KNS pins as suggested either because this is my Service rifle for competition and as such it has to have the appearance of a standard M-16.

Now you are going to argue the semantics of the stakes being "M-16" appearance, but I don't think they are going to be noticed, if they are then I will just build a different lower (MEGA) for my Service Rifle.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 8:21:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Phessor:
I have a Sun Devil lower that is the same way. The fixes are to go with oversize KNS pins or do what I did and install a Timney trigger. They have set screws to tighten things up inside.

Ya, for the money I was disappointed as well.

Phessor

www.hunt101.com/data/500/6241SBR_3_07.JPG


You two are complaining about machined billet lowers that you spent $140 instead of $250 on? Take a look at the cost of other brands machined billet lowers and then step back for a minute.

For the record, I have and use a Gen 1 Sun Devil lower, but have installed the lightened trigger kit from Rainer Arms in it. Prior to that, it had a Stag LPK installed, and had no issues.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 8:29:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lapp_Dance:

Originally Posted By Phessor:
I have a Sun Devil lower that is the same way. The fixes are to go with oversize KNS pins or do what I did and install a Timney trigger. They have set screws to tighten things up inside.

Ya, for the money I was disappointed as well.

Phessor

www.hunt101.com/data/500/6241SBR_3_07.JPG


You two are complaining about machined billet lowers that you spent $140 instead of $250 on? Take a look at the cost of other brands machined billet lowers and then step back for a minute.

For the record, I have and use a Gen 1 Sun Devil lower, but have installed the lightened trigger kit from Rainer Arms in it. Prior to that, it had a Stag LPK installed, and had no issues.



Well, I NEVER
had a single issue with any of the 50+ $90.00 forged lowers I have built on.
I am an Armorer in my unit so I believe I know a little bit about tolerances. My pins would slide right out just by tilting the lower and shaking it a little bit. Even the over sized KNS pins do not fit in the hole snug. Only the cross bars kept them in.
And while we are on the griping of Sun Devil lowers let me add that they need to radius some of the edges so that they are not so sharp.
Phessor
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 8:58:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RFmissile:

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.


No, it is not professional, nor professional looking. Your sarcasm is well noted and understood. I was just showing you a field fix for my less than desirable loose trigger pin.

I cannot use KNS pins as suggested either because this is my Service rifle for competition and as such it has to have the appearance of a standard M-16.

Now you are going to argue the semantics of the stakes being "M-16" appearance, but I don't think they are going to be noticed, if they are then I will just build a different lower (MEGA) for my Service Rifle.


I for one think its not a half bad solution
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 9:21:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.


No, it is not professional, nor professional looking. Your sarcasm is well noted and understood. I was just showing you a field fix for my less than desirable loose trigger pin.

I cannot use KNS pins as suggested either because this is my Service rifle for competition and as such it has to have the appearance of a standard M-16.

Now you are going to argue the semantics of the stakes being "M-16" appearance, but I don't think they are going to be noticed, if they are then I will just build a different lower (MEGA) for my Service Rifle.


I for one think its not a half bad solution


I thought so too.  


I couldn't give a shit less about the tension screw because I'm no longer concerned with upper/lower play.  Is there anything else this lower does that my forged lowers won't do? I'm just trying to figure out a reason to buy one?  I'm a gear whore too, all my stuff is high end and my friends make fun of me for it all the time, but I just can't figure this out.  

You guys have fun with your billets.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 9:35:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 9:39:49 AM EDT by Krink]

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


dude did you read the post or just start bashing


this is the first time I have heard of Sun Devil lowers having a problem ,I assembled two for a friend at work and it went smooth and easy no issues.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 9:39:39 AM EDT
My Sun Devil lower never gave me problems. I've been quite impressed with it, actually.

Just stickin' up for SD here.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 9:43:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RFmissile:

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.


No, it is not professional, nor professional looking. Your sarcasm is well noted and understood. I was just showing you a field fix for my less than desirable loose trigger pin.

I cannot use KNS pins as suggested either because this is my Service rifle for competition and as such it has to have the appearance of a standard M-16.

Now you are going to argue the semantics of the stakes being "M-16" appearance, but I don't think they are going to be noticed, if they are then I will just build a different lower (MEGA) for my Service Rifle.


It should not be an issue but it is a shame that you had to "fix" something that should have been right from the beginning.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 10:52:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By RFmissile:

Originally Posted By ar15_rifleman:

Originally Posted By RFmissile:
I used an automatic center punch (Snap-On) and staked my NEW Sun Devil receiver on both sides to tighten up the pin.


That looks real professional.


No, it is not professional, nor professional looking. Your sarcasm is well noted and understood. I was just showing you a field fix for my less than desirable loose trigger pin.

I cannot use KNS pins as suggested either because this is my Service rifle for competition and as such it has to have the appearance of a standard M-16.

Now you are going to argue the semantics of the stakes being "M-16" appearance, but I don't think they are going to be noticed, if they are then I will just build a different lower (MEGA) for my Service Rifle.



JP Rifles has anti walk pins, they are pins with E-clips on each end.since JP is mainly a competition builder why not use thier pins?

I have a VLTOR MUR1 that the rear take down is so tight and has been for a few thousand rounds, that I must pound out this pin with a brass punch I made just for it.
one of these days I hope to find an "undersise" pin for it.   but I'll be damned if I grind or peen the upper to make it work.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 11:22:02 AM EDT
thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 11:29:02 AM EDT
Thanks for the heads up on these lowers. Good timing too, was looking at picking one up.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 11:29:05 AM EDT
I was just getting ready to buy one , so thinks for the info , and no thanks on those lowers.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 12:23:22 PM EDT
My SD is very nice and the holes were even a little on the tight side.  FWIW
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 12:52:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


Link Posted: 8/30/2008 1:30:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JBowles:

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


Are you retarded or just can't read?

He went down to Sun Devil in Person and dealt with the Owner directly.


Chill out that's the standard ARFCOM reply for any negative info about vendors.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 1:45:14 PM EDT
No, that's a noob who thinks it's the standard reply, so actually reading the post was apparently unnecessary.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 2:09:30 PM EDT
I think you did a good thing by posting the issue, but you really should have stepped back and took a moment to THINK before you staked the outside like that.  Staking the Inside, using oversize pins, or trading out the lower would have been preferable.  
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 2:10:46 PM EDT
Do not want.  Thanks for warning us man.  I was thinking of buying one too.  
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 2:25:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 3:14:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 3:15:37 PM EDT by splitbolt]
I had an issue with my Sun Devil lower. It had a mislocated and oversized buffer detent hole.
I tried for 2 months to contact Sun Devil.
The dealer was no help either.
The dealer claims they only had 1 or 2 recievers returned, ever...for user-error. They would not accept mine for return and just stopped returning my calls, altogether.
I realize the dealer had no real dog in my fight, but, when claiming your products are this and your service is that and it isn't...
Screw them both.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 3:37:05 PM EDT
lol @ this thread

Link Posted: 8/30/2008 3:44:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spider:
Sigh.
Did you contact SnDevil first to let them know you may have received a lower that slipped through their QC,
or did you just jump on the first forum you could find to begin the bashing?
Just curious.


hay jeenius, reeding iz funduhmentul
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 3:47:38 PM EDT
your in AZ call Jeff at Arizona Armory and he can set you straight ,you can even try the pins for fit B4 you buy . 602-819-4615 Jeff is a no BS guy and you can judge first hand.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 4:03:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GONIF:
your in AZ call Jeff at Arizona Armory and he can set you straight ,you can even try the pins for fit B4 you buy . 602-819-4615 Jeff is a no BS guy and you can judge first hand.


+ 1
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 4:20:54 PM EDT
RFmissile, I can completely understand. Just sent an M&P15 lower back to S&W.  The hammer and trigger holes are out of spec. My gunsmith measured them at .0162.  Visually, one could see the difference. I guess when a company produces thousands of lowers every year there is going to be bad batches.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 4:27:17 PM EDT
I ahad a green bannanna once that fit in teh tigger pin hole.  it was oversised by .04873838589" and got stuk becose it didn't tap in with a rabid marmoset...

I just wanted to say that, and see if the idiots without acceptable third grade reading comprehension skills would say anything....  Like, I should have used a constipated tree sloth rather than a rabid marmoset when setting the trigger pin.
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:33:37 PM EDT
you guys got arm bands?
Link Posted: 8/30/2008 6:53:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2008 6:55:43 PM EDT by Wespe]

I guess when a company produces thousands of lowers every year there is going to be bad batches.


I would say that they may have a few here and there that could be bad, but if the machinist is checking his work and there is an inspector that double checks it, the chances of a part falling through the cracks is pretty small.  It all comes down to pride in work of the machinist or machine operator and a decent quality assurance program.  The statement that the o.p. said that they couldn't find the right tool to verify their work says a lot.
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