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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/24/2004 4:22:59 PM EST
I'm looking for a source for sub-sonic 9mm ammunition, and came across the Silver Bear 145grn 9mm load. Does anybody know if this ammunition is sub-sonic? It will be running in a suppressed AR.

Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:30:38 PM EST

A lot of the 147gr 9mm ammo from various manufacturers can be subsonic. Don't forget that barrel length is a factor - what's subsonic out of a 4" test barrel on the manufacturer's spec sheet might not be subsonic out of a 16" barrel on a 9mm AR. The speed of sound is 1,116.43 feet per second at standard temperature and air pressure. You can compare that number to the mfg specs to get an idea - but again, keep barrel length in mind.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:35:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 4:41:22 PM EST by ph713]
I might add specifically that Winchester's current production "LE-only" Ranger 147gr round is pretty subsonic, and is considered one of the best hollowpoint defense rounds by just about everyone to boot. The model number is "RA9T" - there are many other variations from Winchester with "Ranger" and/or "SXT" and/or a "T" (for Talon) in the name / model, but I'm referring in this post specifically to model RA9T. Winchester only sells it to LE, but it's perfectly legal to own by federal law (check state laws). It can be hard to find a source, although it does pop up at gun shows and auction sites sometimes.

(Edited to add the specs from mfg):


RA9T 9mm Luger 147 grain T Series
Velocity at Muzzle, 5yards, 25yards - 990 985 967 feet/sec
Energy at Muzzle, 25yards - 320, 305 ft/lb

Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:38:29 PM EST
My guess would be YES given the bullet weight and "cheap" ammo. Donn't expect a large velocity increase with barrel length as the powder will be burnt a long ways back.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:45:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/24/2004 4:46:26 PM EST by Rabbit9]
Guys, I'm VERY familiar with sub-sonic ammunition. The Silver Bear runs a little faster than the Winchester and Federal that I use, but it's also one HELL of a lot cheaper. I need to know if anyone has shot this ammunition with a suppressor and what their experiences were. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

The ammo's going through my Colt:
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:47:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:51:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
Guys, I'm VERY familiar with sub-sonic ammunition. The Silver Bear runs a little faster than the Winchester and Federal that I use, but it's also one HELL of a lot cheaper. I need to know if anyone has shot this ammunition with a suppressor and what their experiences were. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

The ammo's going through my Colt:
www.hunt101.com/img/129483.jpg



Yeah sorry, I misread, I thought you were just looking for some idea in general and that was the first thing you came across that looked subsonic
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 4:52:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:
Here's some more sub-sonic ammo.

www.ttiarmory.com/



Thanks brouhaha, the TTI stuff is PREMIUM ammunition; really good stuff. Unfortuneately, it's priced accordingly. I'm looking at the SB because it's cheaper than the Winchester "white box" 115grn fodder. The 9mm sub-sonic ammunition is normally rather pricey, thus the interest in the SB, but only if it comes sans "crack".

I'm looking for practice/match ammunition that I can run with the can.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:03:19 PM EST
I HIGHLY doubt that Silver Bear would be pushing a 145 grain bullet past the high 900fps at BEST out of a 4" barrel and you wonn't see any appreciable increase in greater barrel lengths. Pressures spike very high when going close to the 1000fps range and over. Lighter bullet weights can be pushed but NOT the heavy weight. If you want cheap, RELOAD, and talior your loads.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 5:08:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 6:38:23 AM EST by Rabbit9]

Originally Posted By M199:
I HIGHLY doubt that Silver Bear would be pushing a 145 grain bullet past the high 900fps at BEST out of a 4" barrel and you wonn't see any appreciable increase in greater barrel lengths.



Silver Bear lists their 145grn 9mm "pistol ammunition" at 1035 fps. I'm afraid I'm going to be pushing the envelope shooting it in a 10.5" Colt.

I contacted the distributor for Silver Bear. He said that it chrono'd at 1015 fps, so depending on the burn rate of the powder, I think that I'll be okay. I'm going to order some for T&E.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:26:33 AM EST
Here is a crazy idear. Buy a box and listen for the "crack".

I've shot lots of the Silver Bear 9mm stuff with great results. For punching paper, no problem.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:48:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 3:17:53 AM EST by Rabbit9]

Originally Posted By DavidDetroit:
Here is a crazy idear. Buy a box and listen for the "crack".



If there were anywhere local that carried the Silver Bear ammunition, I'd have already done that. If you ask questions, you can often save yourself time and money by drawing on the experience of others.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:22:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 6:23:23 PM EST by yasenovo]

I contacted the distributor for Silver Bear. He said that it chrono'd at 1015 fps, so depending on the burn rate of the powder, I think that I'll be okay. I'm going to order some for T&E.


Project manager :)

Remember, I used a pistol for the testing...
your mileage may vary with your Colt 9mm Carbine...
But by the looks of it... it would sure be fun to test!

Y-
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 3:20:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By yasenovo:

I contacted the distributor for Silver Bear. He said that it chrono'd at 1015 fps, so depending on the burn rate of the powder, I think that I'll be okay. I'm going to order some for T&E.


Project manager :)

Remember, I used a pistol for the testing...
your mileage may vary with your Colt 9mm Carbine...
But by the looks of it... it would sure be fun to test!

Y-



Thanks Yas, I'm going to order some of the ammunition today. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:32:03 AM EST
As far as Silver Bear, I thought I had come across the Holy Grail of all those who shoot suppressed: cheap subsonic 9mm ammunition. I have tried it in pistols, a Mini Uzi and a Micro Uzi and a LRM suppressed M16.

My impression (and I always wonder what is heard from somewhere other than behind the weapon) is that Silver Bear is right on the edge of subsonic. This might be where weather, temperature and air pressure step in to determine who hears what. In my pistols like a Glock 26 or BHP or the two Uzis it would randomly go trans-sonic, much to my embarassment. The ported barrel of the LRM upper would keep it nice and quiet.

I'm afraid that it is back to the Special K or the Federal subsonic that Ammoman sells for me. Not only do I need consistant performance shooting near neighbors, but I also prefer to buy American-made. I'll spend that extra dollar or two and consider it a tax to support some American in a factory somewhere. When I was younger I used to be that guy working a shit job in a factory, and always wonder how he is doing these days.

I digress. Silver Bear might be ok for you. I am going to pass on it for a variety of reasons, as you see.



Link Posted: 10/26/2004 7:44:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 7:45:13 AM EST by Rabbit9]

Originally Posted By Tirador223:
As far as Silver Bear, I thought I had come across the Holy Grail of all those who shoot suppressed: cheap subsonic 9mm ammunition.



That's what I'm hoping!


My impression (and I always wonder what is heard from somewhere other than behind the weapon) is that Silver Bear is right on the edge of subsonic.



I know that it's going to be close. We'll have to wait and see.


I'm afraid that it is back to the Special K or the Federal subsonic that Ammoman sells for me. Not only do I need consistant performance shooting near neighbors, but I also prefer to buy American-made. I'll spend that extra dollar or two and consider it a tax to support some American in a factory somewhere.



Dude, it's not just a dollar or two; if it were, I wouldn't be looking for alternate sources of "non-essential" ammunition. We're talking more in the neighborhood of $40-110 a case. It's a "two will get you three" proposition.

I guess it depends on what kind of volume of ammunition you're shooting. Winchester cornered the market on 9mm with the Wally World White Box value packs; perhaps Silver Bear can do the same thing for those of us that shoot sub-sonic ammunition.

Hey Yas, maybe you could talk them into dropping the velocity a little bit?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:52:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 8:55:46 AM EST by rocko]
If you are really shooting that much volume, have you considered reloading? I load subsonic 9mm for my m11/9 for around $75-$80/K without buying anything in bulk, using 147gr Berry's plated bullets and 3.6-3.7 gr VV N320. Could probably drop that to around $70/K by using a cheaper powder and buying enough powder and primers at once to make the hazmat fee worth going mail order. I can crank out around 400/hr on my 550B, which is sufficiently fast for my needs - then again, I really don't mind reloading. It shoots as clean as you can get in a blowback SMG...

Don't forget the Silver Bear is JHP, and so may not run well in all guns.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 8:55:14 AM EST
What velocity is that giving you? Does that load reliably cycle in pistols? I have access to a Dillon 1050 for 9mm loading, but everyone else who uses it just wants a good reliable plinking load for their handguns. If this load works in pistols they'll go for buying components in bulk with me....


Originally Posted By rocko:
If you are really shooting that much volume, have you considered reloading? I load subsonic 9mm for my m11/9 for around $75-$80/K without buying anything in bulk, using 147gr Berry's plated bullets and 3.6-3.7 gr VV N320. Could probably drop that to around $70/K by using a cheaper powder and buying enough powder and primers at once to make the hazmat fee worth going mail order. I can crank out around 400/hr on my 550B, which is sufficiently fast for my needs - then again, I really don't mind reloading. It shoots as clean as you can get in a blowback SMG...

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:08:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By rocko:
If you are really shooting that much volume, have you considered reloading? I load subsonic 9mm for my m11/9 for around $75-$80/K without buying anything in bulk, using 147gr Berry's plated bullets and 3.6-3.7 gr VV N320. Could probably drop that to around $70/K by using a cheaper powder and buying enough powder and primers at once to make the hazmat fee worth going mail order. I can crank out around 400/hr on my 550B, which is sufficiently fast for my needs - then again, I really don't mind reloading. It shoots as clean as you can get in a blowback SMG...

Don't forget the Silver Bear is JHP, and so may not run well in all guns.



I quit reloading years ago; I just don't have the time. You're right about the cost of reloading. I used to be able to reload 1K of 9mm for around $70-80. The benefit comes when you can BUY the Silver Bear ammunition for $90 / 1K + shipping. My TIME is worth more than $20.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:22:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
What velocity is that giving you? Does that load reliably cycle in pistols? I have access to a Dillon 1050 for 9mm loading, but everyone else who uses it just wants a good reliable plinking load for their handguns. If this load works in pistols they'll go for buying components in bulk with me....



IIRC, around 900 fps. I did bring the chrono for the first load, but didn't really record any numbers - as long as it was subsonic (and it was by a good bit) and cycled the m11/9 I was happy. I don't have a pistol can, so have never really had much incentive to use it in any of my pistols, but I did run a couple of mags through a BHP - felt a bit softer than most 115gr plinking stuff, but no failures. However, can't claim to have done any extensive tests. FWIW, this load is what Dater recommends - or at least that's what I've heard...

Most of the savings in buying powder and primers in "bulk" is spreading the hazmat fee out. I believe you can ship up to 40lbs with the same $20 fee, so if you know others who are into reloading, in general, in your area you can certainly order a variety of components and still beat local prices. Of course, when you're talking only 3.7 gr. a load, and getting around 1800-1900 rounds out of a pound, the cost of powder is pretty insignificant. That's why I don't mind using VV powder, which is relatively expensive. Of course, if you are talking about reloading everything on the same machine, it is certainly easier to just set up for one load and keep cranking them out.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 9:27:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 9:30:46 AM EST by rocko]

Originally Posted By Rabbit9:
I quit reloading years ago; I just don't have the time. You're right about the cost of reloading. I used to be able to reload 1K of 9mm for around $70-80. The benefit comes when you can BUY the Silver Bear ammunition for $90 / 1K + shipping. My TIME is worth more than $20.



True, with all else being equal. I'm not sure that, even if consistently subsonic, it would be. Just hearsay, since I haven't bothered trying the silver bear (JHP doesn't work that well in my case), but even when subsonic, others have reported the silver bear to be a bit louder than other subsonic 9mm loads. And all of the other russian stuff I've shot had a horrible ammonia odor, and isn't exactly the cleanest - and all that's going to be even more obvious in a blowback gun with a can. So, I'm not sure it is really an apples to apples cost comparison, even if both are running at the same velocity.
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